[Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

[Hugh]

Hello,
We are long-time Nuendo users with quite a few Nuendo workstations and building more. I recognize that Nuendo Live is designed to have a limited feature set, that's what makes it so friendly. When chasing TC, which we ALWAYS do, the previously recorded files are shifted on the timeline to match the relative offset between the previous and new files. Example while chasing TC -
Record when TC reaches 01:00:00, stop when TC reaches 02:00:00.
Record when TC reaches 03:00:00, stop when TC reaches 04:00:00.
Result - the original files now start at 2 hours, not 1 hour as they were originally recorded.

I understand the reason for doing this, makes widely separated recordings easily navigated. However the AAF export puts the files at their NEW, incorrect position, not at their originally recorded timestamp position. I also understand why this would be useful - it makes the AAF match the Nuendo Live "timeline". However there needs to be a checkbox in the AAF export dialog with two options -
- Keeps files at Nuendo Live timeline positions, or
- Puts files at their original timestamp positions.

Because we ALWAYS use TC the AAF export of Nuendo Live is useless because the files import into ProTools at the WRONG positions. It's actually dangerous because once you import an AAF into PT, PT writes it's own timestamp info into the file headers and it can be difficult to correct later. We MUST have them at the timestamp positions. We're back to importing manually into ProTools, hoping they spot correctly when the timestamp option is easy to implement in Nuendo Live.

Thanks for considering,
Hugh

[TimoWildenhain]

Hello,
We are long-time Nuendo users with quite a few Nuendo workstations and building more. I recognize that Nuendo Live is designed to have a limited feature set, that's what makes it so friendly. When chasing TC, which we ALWAYS do, the previously recorded files are shifted on the timeline to match the relative offset between the previous and new files. Example while chasing TC -
Record when TC reaches 01:00:00, stop when TC reaches 02:00:00.
Record when TC reaches 03:00:00, stop when TC reaches 04:00:00.
Result - the original files now start at 2 hours, not 1 hour as they were originally recorded.

I understand the reason for doing this, makes widely separated recordings easily navigated. However the AAF export puts the files at their NEW, incorrect position, not at their originally recorded timestamp position. I also understand why this would be useful - it makes the AAF match the Nuendo Live "timeline". However there needs to be a checkbox in the AAF export dialog with two options -
- Keeps files at Nuendo Live timeline positions, or
- Puts files at their original timestamp positions.

Because we ALWAYS use TC the AAF export of Nuendo Live is useless because the files import into ProTools at the WRONG positions. It's actually dangerous because once you import an AAF into PT, PT writes it's own timestamp info into the file headers and it can be difficult to correct later. We MUST have them at the timestamp positions. We're back to importing manually into ProTools, hoping they spot correctly when the timestamp option is easy to implement in Nuendo Live.

Thanks for considering,
Hugh

Hi Hugh,

thanks very much for the explanation and for making us aware of this. We will run a test on the issue you described!

Thanks,
Timo

[Hugh]

Hello Timo,

Thanks for looking into this, while you're at it look into Nuendo import as well - the same thing happens when opening the project directly into Nuendo 5.5. Fortunately Nuendo has the "move to origin" command (or whatever it's called) which helps but having a way in Nuendo Live to NOT move the previously recorded files to new relative offset positions would certainly help us - we use a lot of Nuendo and ProTools systems and Nuendo Live is a nice addition for acquisition if we can make it streamlined for operators to import correctly.

Thanks,
Hugh

[Hugh]

Hello Timo,

Now that the holidays are over have the folks at Steinberg looked toward solving the AAF export position issue? We need the AAF locations to reflect the original timestamps.
Thanks,
Hugh

[Hugh]

Hello,
Could a Steinberg representative please respond? I'm not ranting, not complaining, simply explaining how Nuendo Live needs to be used in large production environments.
If that's not feasible, let us know. If you're thinking about it, let us know. If we're futile and Nuendo Live will never do that, let us know. If the beta tester copy we have is defective and the release version behaves as we think it should, let us know. It's all about professional production and what we can and cannot use.
Sincerely,
Hugh

[Lydiot]

I usually click on the last-post icon for any thread with today's date on it. I saw "22" on this one and mistakenly thought there was a post on March 22nd here, not January.

So happy quarter bump for you Hugh...

[Hugh]

Hello Lydiot,

That's funny, good to hear from you. I've temporarily given up on Nuendo Live because there appears to be no interest. Steinberg has improved their communication skills on this forum the past couple of years, most other genuine issues receive at least a "we're considering fixing that" or something similar. Silence on one of Nuendo Live's primary professional features - AAF export - indicates silence on the product as a whole. I appreciated Timo's initial response but it appears resources have not been allocated to Nuendo Live because recreation of the problem is easy. If they looked at it, determined it affects too few folks to add a selector for proper AAF export, then at least say so and allow us to write it off as not usable in our applications.

Since my last post we've gathered some other information further indicting Nuendo Live's timecode capabilities. The timestamp put in the file is different from reality based on three variables -
Audio buffer size
PreRecord amount (including zero amount)
LTC>MTC converter used

Re Create -
Record a signal chasing TC
Change buffer size (including any combination of restart)
Record again
The timestamps will be significantly different. Timestamps also vary if you change the Prerecord amount including zero. Note that the timestamps are never close to accurate - in our tests, based on the variables, they were off as much as 4 *frames* from reality.

The choice of synchronization device changes the timestamp much more than in Nuendo 5. In Nuendo 5 and Nuendo Live we've tested two different Motu models, Rosendahl, Lockstep, Smpte Reader, and RME TCO - all compared to ProTools HD running a SyncHD. We do a 10-pass test for each synchronizer determining accuracy, repeatability, and max/min/mean deviation. In Nuendo 5 the timestamps will vary slightly; the worst was perhaps 3ms off reality (project not in front of me at the moment). Max deviation differed between the units; some varied by as much as 1ms pass to pass, others varied by no more than a couple of samples.
In Nuendo Live however changing the synchronization device resulted in extreme changes in the timestamps; as much as 2 *frames* variation, repeatable, in addition to the already incorrect offset of the other two variables, buffer size and prerecord amount.

Summary of Nuendo Live's MTC timestamp capability - the timestamps are always incorrect by a few frames, and vary more than other applications.

One last problem that an associate has tested causing him to give up on Nuendo Live completely. He was having some issues with Nuendo Live and long recordings - sometimes the files would be shorter than other devices by up to 4 frames after a 3 hour recording. This was determined by importing Nuendo Live's files into another workstation along with files from the other recorders - a PTHD system, a JoeCo, and the wav files from the DDRs. The Nuendo Live files of course had incorrect timestamps, but if you lined up a hit at the top of the files, a hit three hours further may be earlier than the other files by up to 4 frames. This indicates Nuendo Live was dropping samples, and quite a few of them. Not predictable but happened occasionally using the same hardware as Nuendo 5, therefore not a hardware issue. Obviously all clocking variables have been eliminated (we're good at that).

It's unfortunate the apparent lack of interest on Steinberg's part to a product that folks pay money for. The TC synchronization is simply broken, it is not the same as Nuendo 5. As a beta tester for the product I'm disappointed to see it this way, even the graphics issues I dealt with during the testing have only been partly resolved - Nuendo 5 has significantly improved graphics performance.

Too much information, hope your Nuendo world is going well.

Sincerely,
Hugh

[TimoWildenhain]

Hello Hugh,

again sorry for the delay in answering.
The problem you described is part of the common AAF issues we have started analysing. I will put this on schedule for the next Nuendo Live update. Unfortunately I don't have an exact date for it right now.

Thanks,
Timo

[Hugh]

Hello Timo,

Thank you for the response. Please allow me to speak frankly for a moment - the AAF export makes the software not usable for a few professional users - important but not to your overall NLive sales. However the very inaccurate timestamps and the dropped samples noted in two threads make it unusable for everyone. Please address these malfunctions first.

Sincerely,
Hugh