Simple Question On VST System Link

[grpetz]

I am currently using a Steinberg UR824 with Cubase 7. Our live set uses a lot of VST instruments and to compensate for any potential ASIO overloads during the live recording I usually up the buffer size if there is a lot of the VST instruments to be used at the same time, however that does not help the vocal audio channels in a live setup as then there is the longer delay on the vocals through the system.

Question is... Can I setup a 2nd computer to use with VST system link for running the VST instruments and this 2nd computer using its own usb audio interface to run those sounds? This way I can lower the latency (buffer size) on the main recording computer running the vocals and keys, and up the buffer size on the remote computer.

Thank you for helping. Gary

[Steve Fogal]

I haven't used System Link before, but from what I understood from reading about it, and if I understood correctly, I 'believe' the answer is yes. From what I read System Link needs each computer to have it's own audio interface and connected via a digital audio connection. People on the forums here have said it's hell to get working. Being I haven't attempted myself, I couldn't say. But reading about it sounded complicated. If you haven't yet, I suggest you read up on it 1st, tgen follow step by step. Then ask more questions as you need.

I've been researching myself on how to utilize multiple machines for nearly a year...looking at the various methods available, including VST System Link. Also looked at connection via ethernet, like Vienna Ensemble Pro, or the older FXTeleport. Then I thought...what if I just make it simple at 1st, or start with something I at least understand, and use what I already have. So I hooked up my 2 compters with their audio/midi interfaces, main machine sends my midi tracks via 5-pin midi into 2nd machine running VSTi's, I then send it's audio back into my main machine. I use the 2nd machine as a VSTi only machine, just like how you'd use any outboard midi instrument/device. My main machine is relieved of all VSTi loads, more power to run audio tracks & FX's. Well that's the simple explanation. There were challenges, as I believe all methods have.

I still will be exploring VST System Link & Ethernet, but not until I explore more of what I'm currently experimenting with, which works, with just a slight but very usable & negligable latency between the two machines. But unlike System Link, all audio & midi are on my main machine, while the 2nd machine only listens to incoming midi, going through loaded VSTi's and outputs audio back to main machine... where I monitor from, like I think you said you want.

[grpetz]

Thanks Steve for the detailed reply. Your simple setup would probably work for me, except I need the ability to edit any midi notes out individually during the mix downs after our live sets and not just record the ouput of the 2nd computers VST to an audio track on the 1st. Is it possible to sync the 2nd computer with the 1st during mixdown to replay exactly as it was recorded live? If so, then this may be the solution.

As a work around I thought I would use the direct monitoring function with the UR824 and up my buffer to about 512 samples, however using direct monitoring voids any inserts or send effects that can be produced on those channels and I use a VST looper to loop incoming audio on some channels from keyboards, and I also need the option to add delay to vocal tracks when needed. Using the direct monitoring does work great to guarantee no dropouts. The compromise I have found is to not use direct monitoring and adjust my machine to about 192 samples and have a small but noticeable delay. For live purposes this delay is not so bad in the monitors, but if you put on the headphones and sing with those it can be noticed a lot more.

In my experiments I have found that Ableton Live 8 (Beta 64bit version) and Reaper could handle MUCH lower buffer samples and provide no ASIO dropouts, even as far as going to the lowest setting of buffer size for least amount of latency. However those two software pieces do not have the full abilities of midi editing and some audio features that I have found with Cubase, nor the quality. At any time our live sets could use up to 7 VST instruments at one time, mostly Halion Orchestra and other Halion 4 instruments. I am running an ASUS Laptop G74 with 16gb of ram and I use the 2nd internal hard drive to store the VST sound banks. At this point I've done all that I can think of for now... but I will keep trying until I succeed with what I desire. Lowest latency possible with no dropouts.

Thanks again and I appreciate your taking the time to respond. Gary

[Steve Fogal]

Hi Gary, I wasn't neccessarily trying to sell you on my idea & set up, just posing yet another option..food for thought. But you don't have to record those VSTi's on a 2nd machine to audio tracks on the other until you want to. The midi is recorded onto the 1st machine, and can be edited later. As I mentioned, with my set up, it's basically the same method as using any other ordinary outboard midi instrument/device ... keyboard, sound module etc. Same type of generalalities associated with midi outboard gear apply...though there are more possibilites with using a 2nd computer loaded with VSTi's than with a midi keyboard or sound module.

There are of course many ways to skin a cat. VST System Link as far as I can tell would suit you, and me, probably just as well. Just a different way of doing the same things. In my set up I have to at minimum have a template on the 2nd machine for using my typical VSTi's...ok if doing a series of songs on an album where you want every song to have the same sounds. But would have to save a single song project on each machine if they're drastically different.
With Ststem Link it's common to have to save the project on each computer...but...even with one computer you often start with a template & tweak as needed, save as...etc.
One of the dufferences between System Link & my set up is I don't rely on 'Linking' at all, and everything on computer #1 is what J would normally have on a single computer...familiar factor for me. This is a learning step for me...starting kff with what I'm familiar with...then experimenting more & more.
Not wanting to spend too much for Vienna Esemble Pro, a great ethernet solution by the way, I'm going to experiment with FXTeleport, being I'm on Win XP pro 32 bit etc. And, want to explore VST System Link too, as I already have multiple audio cards at my disposal. Used $800 Aardvark Q10's go for $50 to $100 these days on ebay. Good I use Win XP still.
I guess my point is to read up and explore your several options...after nearly a year, I'm not done exploring & experimenting. In the back of my mind, I'm leaning toward an ethernet solution for all it has to offer...but then it better have as good ir surpass the latencies that I'm currently getting now, or I'm back to my midi/audio method vs System Link. As I said, I've got some learning & experimentation with all three methods to do.
Just shootin' the sheeite here

[grpetz]

As I mentioned, with my set up, it's basically the same method as using any other ordinary outboard midi instrument/device ... keyboard, sound module etc. Same type of generalalities associated with midi outboard gear apply...though there are more possibilites with using a 2nd computer loaded with VSTi's than with a midi keyboard or sound module.

So in the setup that I am using, I have a Tascaam US144 for my midi input for the VST tracks. It has a midi out option of course, so can I just choose this as an output on my midi tracks in Cubase which would then send out through the Tascaam to the 2nd computer for the VSTi? and then from the 2nd computer return the audio to the UR824? Am I understanding this right? Thank you.

Gary

[Steve Fogal]

Yes, that's exactly right. And if you know your around Cubase's routing, monitoring etc much better than I did, it shouldn'd be as hard for you. I use older Aardvark audio cards on both my machines... Each computer has a Q10 and an Aark 24 card, each cards has their own options. I have 2 midi I/O ports (5-pin), and about 20 analog audio I/O's and 2 s/spdif I/O's per computer, plus the Aark 24's each have ADAT lightpipe/TosLink I/O's...for which I am currently playing around with for sending 8 digital audio channels through one wire the size slightly larger than a pensil lead. Though not really sure that the 2nd computer just sending a stereo sub-mix return isn't enough for me. Hey, but it's all part of my learning proccess for exploring this midi/audio method for all it's worth. Then later on, I'll want to explore System Link & Ethernet conection with FXTeleport. But that'll have to wait...I want to work on some actual music making again here soon....with my audio/midi set-up of course.

[grpetz]

Well that solves a lot to use two computers, one for the VSTi load and the other for the audio load... however I may need to transfer my Halion 4 license over to another dongle or just purchase another Halion for the 2nd machine. Appreciate your help and suggestions. Gary

[Steve Fogal]

It really doesn't take much for a savvy person to set up 2 computers with sending ordinary midi from master machine into slave, then send the slaves audio back into master if you are already familiar with using ordinary outboard midi sound modules/keyboard with sounds etc. Also if familiar with Cubase routing possibilities...I was not.

So I'd start very simple with a test with what you already have now. Then when realizing this set up works for you, do what needs to be done. That's what I did...testing with my current quad core machine, with my old single core machine. After my efforts produced the results that I had hoped for - and I really didn't know - I then set out to build a replica of my much more powerful quad core machine to replace my old single core for this purpose.

When I 1st had this ordinary midi & audio with 2 computers idea, I found almost nothing on the internet about it. Aside from asking basic questions about 'this & that' here on the Cubase forums that could help me piece together a plan on how to accomplish this, I almost felt I was on my own. Oddly, what I 'was' reading on the internet, regarding sending ordinary midi from computer to computer, was that I read something to the effect of the contrary, that is to not use regular midi...as if it wouldn't work...? Well, it DOES work...even 5-pin midi can send 16 channels of midi on a single port...likely more midi channels than I'd need.

Again, at some point when I explore Ethernet & VST System Link, I'll know for sure what works best for me. But my set up works pretty good. I think it may be more a matter of preference of work flow...?

[grpetz]

Found what looks to be a great solution rather than VST system link or even midi cables... it is called FX-Teleport and very affordable with good reviews from producers. I'd rather use this than to by additional sound cards and jump through the other loops... Gary

http://www.fx-max.com/fxt/product.html

I found this FX-Teleport from this writeup about VST system link

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan12/articles/qand1-0112-5.htm

[Steve Fogal]

FXTeleport, yes, you'll see I had mentioned that, along with a similar Ethernet solution, Vienna Ensemble Pro in my 1st reply. If you're on Win XP 32 bit, FXT should work out well for you. If you're running the latest OS's and up to date hardware/softwares I'm not so sure. That's where VEP may have to come in (?), but it's expensive and you are forced to buy their library of sounds, which keeps the price high.
For me, my rig(s) are old school, software/hardware Win XP Pro 32 bit, along with elderly drivers to go with it. FXT would fit right in for me. And as I said, I do intend to experiment with that next, after fully exploring and working on actual songs with my midi/audio solution 1st. At this point, it's only been an experiment/test tune.

I actually had read that link you posted a while back...along with many others. It was good to read again. For me, I already had the audio/midi interfaces & cables for the midi/audio solution, and it only takes ONE midi cable & ONE stereo audio connection between two computer's audio/midi interfaces, so it's not a wiring mess by any stretch. What was the hard part for me, was my lack of experience with elaborate Cubase routing, which is going to be the case in any solution. The hardware part was just as simple as when I 1st imagined the idea. Buying all those extra older Aardvarks were cheap, $50-$100 for a card that orginally cost me $800! But again, I'm still on Win XP 32 bit...useless cards for newer Window versions.

Let us know how FXTeleport worked out for you. It may not be all that long before I experiment with it myself. Who know's, I may even attempt a hybrid of midi/audio & Ethernet... if there's any advantage for latency, audio quality, or if audio & midi going through one ethernet connection proves to be too conjestive and/or introduces jitter, like midi via USB is often reported.

[grpetz]

Hi Steve. Well I decided not to go with FX-Teleport as it appears support for it and the development of it with support is not there. For now I have went with using rtpMidi to communicate to my second computer sending the midi for VST instrument purposes using Ableton Live Beta 8 64bit, it processes VST instruments much smoother than Cubase 7 at this time without pops and asio overloads for the intensity of real time live playing and what we do. So in summary I am using Cubase 7 for recording the audio on the 1st computer and the 2nd computer using Ableton for the midi VSTi's...

Gary

[Steve Fogal]

And from what I understand, rtpMidi works with older Win XP as well as newer OS's & 32/64 bit. Good for those who have up to date computers & OS's. And, I think I read it's a freeware...?

What will you be using to send audio out of the 2nd VSTi machine? I assume you need an add-on sound card...or using s/pdif out without one ...?... which I'd been wondering about myself, but since it's not ASIO I'd imagine there would be high latencies.

My own quest is to find the best latencies for a midi sending & audio return solution between machines. I'm already covered with having multiple PCI connected audio/midi ASIO interfaces, equiped with various choices of connectivity at my disposal between computers, but if sending midi through Ethernet protocol proves to be faster or handles several midi channels better than 5-pin midi, then I'll use that. As for my VSTi machine's audio out & return, I have to think my soundcards would provide the better latency... Though my soundcard solution for sending both midi & audio has at least acceptable latencies...that is during my tests with running only about 5 VSTi's (all that my old single-core machine could handle well enough). My newly built (not yet fully set up) 2nd quad machine should be able run a lot more. After this new machine is set up, I'll continue experimenting. And since I'm only running Win XP still, I can use FXTeleport...which for midi (though FXT sends both midi & audio), should be the same as using rtpMidi, being their both Ethernet protocols.

[grpetz]

Yes, on the 2nd computer I use a Tascaam US1800 to process the VSTi's and return the audio output to the 1st computer using the Steinberg UR824. rtpMidi does only transmit the midi and it does require additional audio cards to be on those computers it sends to. The ultimate solution will be moving towards the Vienna Pro setup as it does not require the sound cards and contains current support for both windows or a mac version setup.

At this point I have tested and run successfully about 50 channels of midi being sent via my wifi router through rtpmidi. I have all my midi keyboards and controllers plugged into the first computer, and the 2nd receives from the first through rtpMidi.


To make it real simple, for me, the first computer I called the session was something like this: MasterSend1, and then on the 2nd computer I called the session Receive1, and then connected those two sessions via the rtpMidi. Each session I have found can broadcast up to the normal 16 channels of midi and be received on the 2nd computer by adjusting the appropriate session and midi channel to match it.

I did have a few problems with running rtpMidi on a Windows 7 I3 laptop, only about 4 yrs old, it dropped midi notes occasionally when using it to run Cubase 7 and send the midi through rtpMidi. I have access to a an older macbook pro, about 5 yrs old, and it worked perfect to run Cubase 7 and send the midi to the 2nd computer running windows 7 with a core I7 setup.

In discussing the original topic I have discovered the VST system link has it weak points as it requires additional digital audio cards that can transmit. The Vienna Pro will beat it all around as it can network without additional cards. Too bad Cubase has not changed their system as it could easily bring more people into their DAW setup.

Gary

Gary

[Steve Fogal]

Wow, 50 midi channels...impressive! And if sending only midi through Ethernet proves to be a better solution all around than old school 5-pin...? Though I read that Ethernet can introduce midi jitter, to a lesser extent that USB does. I have no personal experience with midi other 'than' 5-pin myself though.

I guess one primary question would be, what's the fastest & most efficient method transfering midi & audio back & fourth between machines, in terms of the number of midi & audio paths needed, and the least latencies created ... not just what's easier. Some of the methods are more work than others...to set up, as well as operate within projects. Some take away some of the resources themselves in the proccess. Some are more cumbersome. I think we all like simplicity, but there's going to be sone trade off's in choosing what's best for each person.

Vienna Ensemble Pro does seem like a very nice option, especially for working with current computer technology & OS's...unlike FXTeleport, maybe ok for those like me who's hardware & software is dated. Ethernet solutions allowing to save your projects within your master machines host program as if working with one machine is an attractive & easy solution for a way of working. Unlike System Link, having to save your project in each machine.

But I had a criteria in my innitial experiment...primarily at 1st, to make more than one computer work together with what I already had laying around. One thing about standard midi is that it's open & free, can transfer between any machines using any OS. Sure, the more elaborate with more computers means needing more audio/midi interfaces. With the regular midi & audio methid, I can either just make a template with my usual VSTi's, using all the same sounds & settings..but to be the most flexable, would have to save projects in the slave machins(s) like System Link. But at least with the midi/audio method, my master machine still has all the midi & audio like one machine, but the slaves only run the VSTi's, like any other outboard midi sound module.

I don't mind needing more soundcards, being I use Win XP 32 bit & old (discontinued) Aardvark audio/midi interfaces ... quality with many features & choices of connectivity for a low used price.