[Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

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[Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby Hugh » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:08 am

Hello,
We are long-time Nuendo users with quite a few Nuendo workstations and building more. I recognize that Nuendo Live is designed to have a limited feature set, that's what makes it so friendly. When chasing TC, which we ALWAYS do, the previously recorded files are shifted on the timeline to match the relative offset between the previous and new files. Example while chasing TC -
Record when TC reaches 01:00:00, stop when TC reaches 02:00:00.
Record when TC reaches 03:00:00, stop when TC reaches 04:00:00.
Result - the original files now start at 2 hours, not 1 hour as they were originally recorded.

I understand the reason for doing this, makes widely separated recordings easily navigated. However the AAF export puts the files at their NEW, incorrect position, not at their originally recorded timestamp position. I also understand why this would be useful - it makes the AAF match the Nuendo Live "timeline". However there needs to be a checkbox in the AAF export dialog with two options -
- Keeps files at Nuendo Live timeline positions, or
- Puts files at their original timestamp positions.

Because we ALWAYS use TC the AAF export of Nuendo Live is useless because the files import into ProTools at the WRONG positions. It's actually dangerous because once you import an AAF into PT, PT writes it's own timestamp info into the file headers and it can be difficult to correct later. We MUST have them at the timestamp positions. We're back to importing manually into ProTools, hoping they spot correctly when the timestamp option is easy to implement in Nuendo Live.

Thanks for considering,
Hugh
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Re: AAF export option

Postby TimoWildenhain » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:35 pm

Hugh wrote:Hello,
We are long-time Nuendo users with quite a few Nuendo workstations and building more. I recognize that Nuendo Live is designed to have a limited feature set, that's what makes it so friendly. When chasing TC, which we ALWAYS do, the previously recorded files are shifted on the timeline to match the relative offset between the previous and new files. Example while chasing TC -
Record when TC reaches 01:00:00, stop when TC reaches 02:00:00.
Record when TC reaches 03:00:00, stop when TC reaches 04:00:00.
Result - the original files now start at 2 hours, not 1 hour as they were originally recorded.

I understand the reason for doing this, makes widely separated recordings easily navigated. However the AAF export puts the files at their NEW, incorrect position, not at their originally recorded timestamp position. I also understand why this would be useful - it makes the AAF match the Nuendo Live "timeline". However there needs to be a checkbox in the AAF export dialog with two options -
- Keeps files at Nuendo Live timeline positions, or
- Puts files at their original timestamp positions.

Because we ALWAYS use TC the AAF export of Nuendo Live is useless because the files import into ProTools at the WRONG positions. It's actually dangerous because once you import an AAF into PT, PT writes it's own timestamp info into the file headers and it can be difficult to correct later. We MUST have them at the timestamp positions. We're back to importing manually into ProTools, hoping they spot correctly when the timestamp option is easy to implement in Nuendo Live.

Thanks for considering,
Hugh


Hi Hugh,

thanks very much for the explanation and for making us aware of this. We will run a test on the issue you described!

Thanks,
Timo
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Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH
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Re: AAF export option

Postby Hugh » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:31 am

Hello Timo,

Thanks for looking into this, while you're at it look into Nuendo import as well - the same thing happens when opening the project directly into Nuendo 5.5. Fortunately Nuendo has the "move to origin" command (or whatever it's called) which helps but having a way in Nuendo Live to NOT move the previously recorded files to new relative offset positions would certainly help us - we use a lot of Nuendo and ProTools systems and Nuendo Live is a nice addition for acquisition if we can make it streamlined for operators to import correctly.

Thanks,
Hugh
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Re: AAF export option

Postby Hugh » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:55 pm

Hello Timo,

Now that the holidays are over have the folks at Steinberg looked toward solving the AAF export position issue? We need the AAF locations to reflect the original timestamps.
Thanks,
Hugh
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Re: AAF export option

Postby Hugh » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:40 pm

Hello,
Could a Steinberg representative please respond? I'm not ranting, not complaining, simply explaining how Nuendo Live needs to be used in large production environments.
If that's not feasible, let us know. If you're thinking about it, let us know. If we're futile and Nuendo Live will never do that, let us know. If the beta tester copy we have is defective and the release version behaves as we think it should, let us know. It's all about professional production and what we can and cannot use.
Sincerely,
Hugh
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Re: AAF export option

Postby Lydiot » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:50 pm

a
Last edited by Lydiot on Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AAF export option

Postby Hugh » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:48 pm

Hello Lydiot,

That's funny, good to hear from you. I've temporarily given up on Nuendo Live because there appears to be no interest. Steinberg has improved their communication skills on this forum the past couple of years, most other genuine issues receive at least a "we're considering fixing that" or something similar. Silence on one of Nuendo Live's primary professional features - AAF export - indicates silence on the product as a whole. I appreciated Timo's initial response but it appears resources have not been allocated to Nuendo Live because recreation of the problem is easy. If they looked at it, determined it affects too few folks to add a selector for proper AAF export, then at least say so and allow us to write it off as not usable in our applications.

Since my last post we've gathered some other information further indicting Nuendo Live's timecode capabilities. The timestamp put in the file is different from reality based on three variables -
Audio buffer size
PreRecord amount (including zero amount)
LTC>MTC converter used

Re Create -
Record a signal chasing TC
Change buffer size (including any combination of restart)
Record again
The timestamps will be significantly different. Timestamps also vary if you change the Prerecord amount including zero. Note that the timestamps are never close to accurate - in our tests, based on the variables, they were off as much as 4 *frames* from reality.

The choice of synchronization device changes the timestamp much more than in Nuendo 5. In Nuendo 5 and Nuendo Live we've tested two different Motu models, Rosendahl, Lockstep, Smpte Reader, and RME TCO - all compared to ProTools HD running a SyncHD. We do a 10-pass test for each synchronizer determining accuracy, repeatability, and max/min/mean deviation. In Nuendo 5 the timestamps will vary slightly; the worst was perhaps 3ms off reality (project not in front of me at the moment). Max deviation differed between the units; some varied by as much as 1ms pass to pass, others varied by no more than a couple of samples.
In Nuendo Live however changing the synchronization device resulted in extreme changes in the timestamps; as much as 2 *frames* variation, repeatable, in addition to the already incorrect offset of the other two variables, buffer size and prerecord amount.

Summary of Nuendo Live's MTC timestamp capability - the timestamps are always incorrect by a few frames, and vary more than other applications.

One last problem that an associate has tested causing him to give up on Nuendo Live completely. He was having some issues with Nuendo Live and long recordings - sometimes the files would be shorter than other devices by up to 4 frames after a 3 hour recording. This was determined by importing Nuendo Live's files into another workstation along with files from the other recorders - a PTHD system, a JoeCo, and the wav files from the DDRs. The Nuendo Live files of course had incorrect timestamps, but if you lined up a hit at the top of the files, a hit three hours further may be earlier than the other files by up to 4 frames. This indicates Nuendo Live was dropping samples, and quite a few of them. Not predictable but happened occasionally using the same hardware as Nuendo 5, therefore not a hardware issue. Obviously all clocking variables have been eliminated (we're good at that).

It's unfortunate the apparent lack of interest on Steinberg's part to a product that folks pay money for. The TC synchronization is simply broken, it is not the same as Nuendo 5. As a beta tester for the product I'm disappointed to see it this way, even the graphics issues I dealt with during the testing have only been partly resolved - Nuendo 5 has significantly improved graphics performance.

Too much information, hope your Nuendo world is going well.

Sincerely,
Hugh
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Re: AAF export option

Postby TimoWildenhain » Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:08 am

Hello Hugh,

again sorry for the delay in answering.
The problem you described is part of the common AAF issues we have started analysing. I will put this on schedule for the next Nuendo Live update. Unfortunately I don't have an exact date for it right now.

Thanks,
Timo
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Re: AAF export option

Postby Hugh » Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:18 pm

Hello Timo,

Thank you for the response. Please allow me to speak frankly for a moment - the AAF export makes the software not usable for a few professional users - important but not to your overall NLive sales. However the very inaccurate timestamps and the dropped samples noted in two threads make it unusable for everyone. Please address these malfunctions first.

Sincerely,
Hugh
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Re: AAF export option

Postby TimoWildenhain » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:41 am

Hugh wrote:Hello Timo,

Thank you for the response. Please allow me to speak frankly for a moment - the AAF export makes the software not usable for a few professional users - important but not to your overall NLive sales. However the very inaccurate timestamps and the dropped samples noted in two threads make it unusable for everyone. Please address these malfunctions first.

Sincerely,
Hugh


Hello Hugh,

the timestamp issues will be addressed first. Regarding the AAF export, this also affects Nuendo, not only Nuendo Live. Over the next months, we will deeply investigate all urgent AAF problems by having a new AAF-team exclusively focussing on this topic. However, results will only be visible in late autumn, as the AAF filter needs serious maintenance.

Thanks,
Timo
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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby ncpstudio » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:26 am

Hi guys,

I'm about to buy Nuendo live, but I've noticed that there are issues with sync to video or other devices.
Steiny is also gonna work on the issues........ hmmm.......
Ok if you don't need to sync to video, but just import into N5 or N6 for mixing, are there issues with that?
Do these problems affect the sync relations between the individual tracks?
If for instance recording 32 tracks for 2 hours, will all tracks have the same length and be in sync with one another?
If that works I can start with it, but if there is a shift between individual tracks......hmmm...., users will be forced to look for other options and I will be one of them.
And to consider that I've been using Nuendo since 2003 (N2.0)
Anyway I would like your comments

Best regards
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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby Fredo » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:39 am

NCP, AFAIK there is only a problem with syncing to timecode.
You shouldn't bump into none of the problems you describe.

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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby ncpstudio » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:01 pm

Ok thanks Fredo.
So I can just open the N Live file in N5, no export required? (see the AAF issue)

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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby Hugh » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:11 pm

Hello npc,

As Fredo mentioned the files will be aligned with each other, just off from reality by some amount. You can open the files in Nuendo 5.5.? (forgot version which added that), but keep in mind they will be at the same locations as they were on the NLive timeline. If you're not chasing code then you'll be fine.

The other seemingly rare issue that Tom and I have both experienced and thoroughly documented, dropped samples in long recordings, may bite you. It's possible it won't happen, or if it happens the dropped samples will be very short so you may not notice. If you later have to sync to video then things won't match on long files.

Hugh
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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby ncpstudio » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:48 pm

Thanks Hugh.

Well I have been synching programs by the eye. (I think max 2 - 2.5 hrs) And I have had issues.
Yes I know it's crazy, but I don't own a syncstation yet or some other doing both WC & SMPTE (for video).
I have old midi-smpte boxes like the PPS-2, an ADATsync-midi from steinberg as well as a midisport 8x8 with smpte.....hmmmm...... I haven't used them for a long time.
Anyway we want to get a Syncstation before the end of 2013.
Hopefully Steiny will fix the sync issues shortly, especially for the "non experienced" in that area like me.

ncpstudio
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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby Burtoni » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:27 pm

You will always need to use the AAF function as the WAV files that NL records don't actually all start at the same point.

They will line up in the original session.. but won't line up copying the recorded WAVs into Protools.

So an AAF export is actually fairly compulsory.
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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby marcuswimmer » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:42 am

Hi all...
a few hours ago i bring my first NuendoLive recoding into logic…

After the Timeline Ghost hits me… i discovered the forum and read your posts…
…damn…..

it is not nice, but for my sessions (to bring a Liverecording in my DAW and mix it…)
i find something. The smpte of the files shows the same starts (1 1 1 1) and different endings (i.e.: 1457 0 2 83 and 1457 0 2 42) so my thought about it was the files got different starts, but perhaps the same stop!!!!
So my quick work-around is to alighn the ends of my regions and that hits it for the first try!

It is not well tested and figured out to the last sample, but perhaps it helps a few people out there…
let my know!

cheers!
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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby njrsound » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:53 am

So, after reading this thread I was wanting to check whether file offset occurred when you are not receiving MTC and timestamping - simply recording to the Nuendo Live timeline. My test was as follows - MADI into RME Madi FX card, recording 56 channels of the same audio - which has a tone blip every second so it's easy to see alignment. Record for 5 minutes.

First 'take' was with pre-record time set to Zero. All 64 BWAV files have the same timestamp when viewed with Audioease Snapper. Import them into ProTools (which is what will always happen with my files), line them up to session start. Look at first and last track, start, finish and Audio Peaks are all aligned.

Second take, with Pre-record time set to 10 seconds. Each BWAF file has a timestamp about 2.9ms earlier than the one before (the last track was the first to be created). There is a 165ms offset between the timestamp of track 1 and track 56. Drop these files at session start in ProTools and of course all the audio is out of alignment by that amount. Spot each file individually to the Original Timestamp position in ProTools, and your audio is nicely back in alignment. Fine if you are doing all the post yourself, but not likely to make you popular with an outside post company...

Also, if that recording was made at the start of the Nuendo timeline, position 00.00.00:00 on the time ruler, the timestamp will be a little less than the pre-roll time before that - in my case track 56 was timestamped at 23.59.50.339. Many post people get very nervous about crossing 'midnight' like that. ProTools 10 doesn't mind, but I understand older versions had problems with it.

It would be good to get this sorted.
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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby TimoWildenhain » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:06 pm

Hello,

the Nuendo Live timestamp issue will be fixed by a Nuendo Live maintenance update coming next week.
Thanks to all users - especially Hugh - for making us aware of this issue.

Thanks,
Timo
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Re: [Confirmed] Timecode / AAF issues

Postby tth » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:34 pm

Hi Timo,
Does the Nuendo Live 1.1 maintenance fix the issue I had with dropped samples over long recordings?
Thanks!

Tom
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