[FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

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[FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Domilik » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:58 pm

Same issue in so many projects:
Getting sessions from other OS platforms or other DAWs via AAF or AAT do crash special characters like äöüß in clipnames and they're looking like "§&[]%" after transfer. There's even no compatibility between N4 and N5 (on same OS) concerning special characters/unicode.
Another issue is, that very long filenames cannot be copied from one platform to the other etc pp.

For this we need a better re-linking functionality! We need the opportunity to re-link files with similar names.

I just (again and again) spended one annoying hour for re-linking "not founded" files manually (and one after the other) after transfer between Platforms (because for example former file named "Autotür" was changed via AAF to "Autot§$%r"). Same happens everytime when I want to open a N5-Session in N4.
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Oliver.Lucas » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:46 am

Special characters in filenames. Why do people never learn? There should be a 5 dollar fine for each file that uses them.....

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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Lydiot » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:56 pm

Oliver.Lucas wrote:Special characters in filenames. Why do people never learn? There should be a 5 dollar fine for each file that uses them.....

Ollie


Yeah.
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Domilik » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:17 pm

Oliver.Lucas wrote:Special characters in filenames. Why do people never learn? There should be a 5 dollar fine for each file that uses them.....
Ollie


I disagree. We use modern computer technologies. Those few special characters belong to our languages. I cannot imagine any reason why modern software plattforms could and should not handle them! They're just letters! Softwares can build CG-Citys and replace actors, but they fail when they have to deal with an "ä".

Besides, of course, everyone should know this, and try to avoid them, but that should be no excuse for the software developers. And fact is, that I regulary get sessions with those characters for mixing jobs.
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Lydiot » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:32 pm

Yeah, but at the end of the day we're responsible for our work actually working. We should know by now to avoid these characters since they sometimes don't work. It'd be great if software/hardware did what we wanted all the time but alas it does not, so it's up to work around it.
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Domilik » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:25 pm

Yeah, but then we can close this forum, cause I guess there is at least nothing left which can not be done with a bunch of workarounds.
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Lydiot » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:32 pm

Domilik wrote:Yeah, but then we can close this forum, cause I guess there is at least nothing left which can not be done with a bunch of workarounds.


Easy there tiger... There is more software than Nuendo that have a problem with "illegal" characters. I'm not against all software being able to handle it, just saying that it's bad practice to use these characters knowing that many computers have a problem with them.

I suppose I should admit though that I never use them and don't know exactly how much this has changed in the last say 5 years or so.
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Bassman » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:34 pm

I'm with Domilik ...

If a software can't handle any special charakters, then it should replace it with a "?" or other characters, whitout reduce the functionallity. We live in the 21st century ...

(On the other side, I work with a software in my company for program old machines, it's a DOS(!) program :mrgreen: )
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Oliver.Lucas » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:26 pm

Bassman wrote:(On the other side, I work with a software in my company for program old machines, it's a DOS(!) program :mrgreen: )


Forget 1176 emulations - that's the REAL vintage vibe, man.... :mrgreen:
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby neilwilkes » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:08 pm

Bassman wrote:I'm with Domilik ...

If a software can't handle any special charakters, then it should replace it with a "?" or other characters, whitout reduce the functionallity. We live in the 21st century ...

(On the other side, I work with a software in my company for program old machines, it's a DOS(!) program :mrgreen: )


Sorry, but I'm with Lydiot on this one.
Realistically, we all know this can be a problem and it is a nasty one - some platforms work with funny characters, others do not - for a classic example take DVD-Video & DVD-Audio authoring in Sonic tools, where using anything except alphanumerics will fail on compile - 26 letters, 10 numbers and underscores are about all you can reliably use.
Even worse in DVD-A (MEI/Sonic) menu names with spaces or funny characters will IMPORT okay but as soon as you try to compile the image, the FORMAT tool throws it's toys right out of the pram & complains it "cannot find such & such a file" simply because the space in the name throws it out.
Pressing right along, we get the situation where some apps will not read anything except 8.3 naming protocols, and again (with DVD) you must take great care or your disc will simply not run on a computer based setup or - and this is even worse - will work on some but not on others because some OS are okay up to 128 characters and others are not.

It's a fact of our lives, and we just have to live with it.
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Big K » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:54 pm

Thing is, for most folks here in Germany the "Umlaute" are valid parts of our orthography and quite a few are not aware of this problem. I am sure, though, that all of them would use "ae,ue,oe" for "ä ü ö", etc., in future, if told about those difficulties.
And yes, it is ridiculous that this transformation tool is not being integrated by the software engineers by default.

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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Lydiot » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:57 pm

Big K wrote:Thing is, for most folks here in Germany the "Umlaute" are valid parts of our orthography and quite a few are not aware of this problem. I am sure, though, that all of them would use "ae,ue,oe" for "ä ü ö", etc., in future, if told about those difficulties.
And yes, it is ridiculous that this transformation tool is not being integrated by the software engineers by default.

Big K


If by "transformation tool" you mean a process in the software that automatically turns an "ö" into an "oe" I think I have to disagree again. Especially if it also should translate the other way since it then would have to interpret language to ensure the translation is correct. Seeing how Nuendo development (for example) moves fairly slowly, and seeing how we are confronted with numerous bugs ranging from small to significant, I really don't want any piece of code in the software that's not needed because it can make things worse. Especially code that has nothing to do with creating or processing audio.

But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Big K » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:29 pm

No, you got this right,.. spot on!
Detecting "Umlaute" and other characters and converting them into Stupid-Machine-Can-Read-Code
is known for ages and should not represent any problems for today's engineers.
The other way round is not necessary...

As to the great danger of bugs and problems in softwares...
Such is life... A tale of misery, hunger & despaire ..and buggy softwares...
If it doesn't kill you, it'll make you even stronger.

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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Lydiot » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:02 pm

Well, my point is that we know what the situation is. We know that software is buggy. And we know that SB and other companies are in it for the money. So they'll do whatever they think will make them money, not what is in our best interest. So clearly they'll spend as little as possible while maximizing profit.

If you read through the Cubase forum on the Cubase 7 and update releases there are plenty of issues. And personally I think they went too far with Nuendo 6 in certain areas (such as redesigning the Control Room mixer for no apparently good reason and instead making it one of the ugliest interfaces I've seen in a long time) which shows that not only do they (in my opinion) prioritize incorrectly but also do these tradeoffs that don't make sense....

..which in practice means that adding more code should be weighed very carefully.. which to me means that having a "filter" to correct for characters is pretty low priority. But I agree, in a perfect world we'd be able to use whatever character we want.
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Bassman » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:07 pm

Oliver.Lucas wrote:
Bassman wrote:(On the other side, I work with a software in my company for program old machines, it's a DOS(!) program :mrgreen: )


Forget 1176 emulations - that's the REAL vintage vibe, man.... :mrgreen:


Yäh, oh sorry ... yaeh :mrgreen: I still like this DOS prog. It's faster as my brain can think (20ms response time?). If I use my "modern" software on my current laptop, most of time I wait and wait and wait ... of booting, open programs, connections, input passwords, etc. In the time of waiting, I make several phone calls and in the end off all wait, I have forget what I wanted :roll:
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Fredo » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:29 am

Nuendo is -since Nuendo 5 if i am not mistaking- coded in Unicode, so all characters should work.
The real problem is that most other applications and/or exchange formats do not support Unicode.

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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Domilik » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:52 am

Once again, I regularly get sessions for mixing or editing jobs from other departments which contain special characters, since they are an inherent part of german orthography.

And since obviously not all pictureeditors, soundeditors and recordists are aware of related issues, I regularly have to re-link not found files, manually, one after the other.

This is an issue in dayly work, no matter if it could be avoided, or whatever, so I would like to have a tool in my software, which eases the re-linking of the not found content. Just something like "show similar filenames" in re-linking-dialog. Not more.

(I'm aware that english-speaking costumers do not have those problems cause they do not have those letters, but in germany those äöüß are found in many many words and btw as four seperate keys on every computer-keyboard)
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Big K » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:50 am

Fredo wrote:Nuendo is -since Nuendo 5 if i am not mistaking- coded in Unicode, so all characters should work.
The real problem is that most other applications and/or exchange formats do not support Unicode.
Fredo

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is what I ment... that is why I am not poking at SB on this.
;-)
-------------------------
Since e.g. German engineers are not less professional and cooperativ than their international colleagues,
send them a short note telling the problem and to avoid special characters and they will do so.
For the more advanced, ask for unicode compatible material, or what ever you call it.

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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby TimoWildenhain » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:15 am

Domilik wrote:Same issue in so many projects:
Getting sessions from other OS platforms or other DAWs via AAF or AAT do crash special characters like äöüß in clipnames and they're looking like "§&[]%" after transfer. There's even no compatibility between N4 and N5 (on same OS) concerning special characters/unicode.
Another issue is, that very long filenames cannot be copied from one platform to the other etc pp.

For this we need a better re-linking functionality! We need the opportunity to re-link files with similar names.

I just (again and again) spended one annoying hour for re-linking "not founded" files manually (and one after the other) after transfer between Platforms (because for example former file named "Autotür" was changed via AAF to "Autot§$%r"). Same happens everytime when I want to open a N5-Session in N4.


Hello,

regarding AAF, we are aware of the problems occuring with the transfer of AAF files. This is true related to special characters, but also to other issues with the im- and export filter (such as certain meta data).

However, we have started to create a dedicated AAF working group that will fully concentrate on solving problems with AAF import/export, especially coming from an Avid ProTools and Media Composer. We will also soon be able to analyse serious issues related to AAF in less time. During the Nuendo 6 lifecycle it is our goal, to provide solutions for all major issues and also updates to the AAF filter component.

Thanks,
Timo
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Big K » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:47 pm

Let's just hope "they" don't change their own file format standarts, after you solved the incompatibilities.
I darkly remember they used to draw a certain gain of lust out of annoying the rest of the world...
;-)

But thanks for looking into the issue...

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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby TimoWildenhain » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:45 pm

Big K wrote:Let's just hope "they" don't change their own file format standarts, after you solved the incompatibilities.
I darkly remember they used to draw a certain gain of lust out of annoying the rest of the world...
;-)

But thanks for looking into the issue...

Big K


It's always a chicken-and-egg situation. As long as formats are not defined to the detail level,
it is practically impossible for one vendor to find "the" solution. What we'll do in near future is
to offer more and better support in case issues arise. There will be a dedicated thread
concentration on these issues. And that will be better to monitor for the new "task force".

Thanks,
Timo
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Re: [FR] Better Re-Linking Functions!

Postby Domilik » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:22 pm

"task force aaf"

- sounds great -
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