Transposing the Chord Track

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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby raino » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:32 am

After some more poking around I found something very interesting.

The Am G C sequence can actually be transposed into 2 other root keys (I hadn't really tried them all on the last post), A# and B - or the two notes on the list directly below A (physically not musically below). Then if you change the order of the chords to be G C Am, you'll find that you can now change the root key to any of the 4 notes on the list below G (e.g. B - G#). Now change the order to C Am G and you can change the root to any note since they are all below C in the list.

So you can only transpose to root keys beneath the root key of the first chord selected.
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby raino » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:53 am

I posted this in the Issues forum. I'd appreciate someone confirming it.
viewtopic.php?f=184&t=47917

Thanks.
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby SteveInChicago » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:10 am

Well, I did say,
SteveInChicago wrote:. The interval to which you can transpose them is somehow constrained by conditions I could not decipher, the highest and lowest roots, possibly the number of chords selected.
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby raino » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:28 pm

A kludgy workaround to the problem

I had a Chord Track with a zillion chords in it that I really needed to transpose from Am to Em. Of course it ended being one that wouldn't transpose at all. Not wanting to manually change a zillion chords one at a time (which would take slightly less than eternity :o ) I figured out a rather ugly but fairly simple way do it.

1. Create a new Instrument or MIDI track.
2. Select this new track
3. In the menu "Project/Chord Track" run "Chords to MIDI" to create a new MIDI Part with your chords in it.
4. In the track's Inspector Chord Track tab, disable Follow Chord Track which was automatically enabled in step 3.
5. Open this new MIDI Part in the Key Editor, ctrl-A to select all the notes and move them to be in the desired key.
6. Delete all the chords in the Chord Track.
7. With the MIDI Part selected, in the menu "Project/Chord Track" run "Make Chords".
8. The transposed chords should now be in the Chord Track.

You might want to save the project under another name before doing this, just in case.
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby arve.furset » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:13 am

Great workaround.
Thanks!
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby vic_france » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:41 pm

raino wrote:A kludgy workaround to the problem

.. but a good one ;)
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby SteveInChicago » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:15 pm

In the interest of finding a good one, can one of you guys try this repro?

- New Empty File
- New Chord track
- Add chords, one per measure: 'B' and 'C'
- Select all
- Try to transpose higher or lower using the Info Line
*Result: No transpose possible*

Now, individually transpose each chord root by a diminished 5th.

- Select All
- Try to transpose higher or lower using the Info Line
*Result: Chords transposing is unlimited.*
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby raino » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:17 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:In the interest of finding a good one, can one of you guys try this repro?

- New Empty File
- New Chord track
- Add chords, one per measure: 'B' and 'C'
- Select all
- Try to transpose higher or lower using the Info Line
*Result: No transpose possible*

Now, individually transpose each chord root by a diminished 5th.

- Select All
- Try to transpose higher or lower using the Info Line
*Result: Chords transposing is unlimited.*


Yeah I can confirm that. It also matches my latest (in a long line) theory about what is happening. Put in any sequence of chords and select them all. The root key shown in the info line is always the root of the first chord in the sequence, lets call that X. You should be able to transpose the entire sequence to any root key that is below X in the drop-down list. So if X is F then you can transpose to F#, G, G#...B. You can also transpose to root keys above X in the list, but there is a limitation when doing that. You can only go up in the list until any chord in the sequence gets to C. Once that happens you can't go any higher. So, for example, if you have 2 chords F and D, and select them both the root key (F) can be changed to E and D# but no further. That's because when the root gets to D# the second chord (initially D) is now C. So it seems that the algorithm is broken in that it doesn't allow any chord to pass beyond the C boundary going up in the list.

Kind of hard to describe, so I hope that made sense. Can anyone confirm?
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby SteveInChicago » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:21 pm

That is precisely my finding, and that is why I chose B (the highest) and C (the lowest) for the chords.
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Postby C.LYDE101 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:37 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:In the interest of finding a good one, can one of you guys try this repro?

- New Empty File
- New Chord track
- Add chords, one per measure: 'B' and 'C'
- Select all
- Try to transpose higher or lower using the Info Line
*Result: No transpose possible*

Now, individually transpose each chord root by a diminished 5th.

- Select All
- Try to transpose higher or lower using the Info Line
*Result: Chords transposing is unlimited.*


Everything works as one would expect it...?
- selecting "all" would include the scale selection; the Root Key refers to the scale not the chords
- selection of only the chords, when clicking on the Root Key, a drop down box appears [- to B]
- choosing a key here and the chords change accordingly
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby SteveInChicago » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:02 pm

What's your point? That it does work, or what?
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Re:

Postby raino » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:05 am

C.LYDE101 wrote:
SteveInChicago wrote:In the interest of finding a good one, can one of you guys try this repro?

- New Empty File
- New Chord track
- Add chords, one per measure: 'B' and 'C'
- Select all
- Try to transpose higher or lower using the Info Line
*Result: No transpose possible*

Now, individually transpose each chord root by a diminished 5th.

- Select All
- Try to transpose higher or lower using the Info Line
*Result: Chords transposing is unlimited.*


Everything works as one would expect it...?
- selecting "all" would include the scale selection; the Root Key refers to the scale not the chords
- selection of only the chords, when clicking on the Root Key, a drop down box appears [- to B]
- choosing a key here and the chords change accordingly


Except the cords only sometimes change accordingly, other times they won't change at all or they will only change to some roots and not others. This has been reported by numerous folks on several different threads. We're trying to understand what differentiates one situation from the other. Are you saying that if you create a B followed by a C chord (in that order) that you can select both of those chords and successfully transpose them via the Root Key? I know they won't on both my PC and Steve's Mac.
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby C.LYDE101 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:06 am

Yes
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby SteveInChicago » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:07 am

Hmph. Interesting
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby raino » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:40 am

C.LYDE101 wrote:Yes


I just want to verify that we are not somehow talking apples and oranges. Attached is a screen grab of the test case on my DAW. Setup like this I, and several others, am consistently unable to change the chords by changing the value in the root key field. If you are able to make this work, can you see anything that is setup differently on your system than what is shown in the image?

Chord Track transpose.jpg
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby arve.furset » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:07 pm

Chords should be able to transpose via the Transpose function in the midi menu.
...and They should instantly follow the Transpose Track....I know...probably possible in Cubase 8 ;)
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby C.LYDE101 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:03 pm

raino wrote:
C.LYDE101 wrote:Yes


I just want to verify that we are not somehow talking apples and oranges. Attached is a screen grab of the test case on my DAW. Setup like this I, and several others, am consistently unable to change the chords by changing the value in the root key field. If you are able to make this work, can you see anything that is setup differently on your system than what is shown in the image?

Chord Track transpose.jpg


C.LYDE101 wrote:
Everything works as one would expect it...?
- selecting "all" would include the scale selection; the Root Key refers to the scale not the chords

- selection of only the chords, when clicking on the Root Key, a drop down box appears [- to B]
- choosing a key here and the chords change accordingly
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby C.LYDE101 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:04 pm

arve.furset wrote:Chords should be able to transpose via the Transpose function in the midi menu.
...and They should instantly follow the Transpose Track....I know...probably possible in Cubase 8 ;)



It's possible right now - works like clock work. ;)
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby SteveInChicago » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:20 pm

C.LYDE101 wrote:
arve.furset wrote:Chords should be able to transpose via the Transpose function in the midi menu.
...and They should instantly follow the Transpose Track....I know...probably possible in Cubase 8 ;)



It's possible right now - works like clock work. ;)

Clockwork Orange you mean?
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby raino » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:23 am

C.LYDE101 wrote:Everything works as one would expect it...?
- selecting "all" would include the scale selection; the Root Key refers to the scale not the chords


Selecting just the chords or both the chords and the scale makes no difference on the ability to transpose chords on my system. The behavior is exactly the same either way.

Also I'm pretty sure that Root Key refers to both the scale and the chord. The term Root Key in itself doesn't have any musical meaning but if read as Root or Key it makes sense.
1. Scales have Keys but not Roots. Chords have Roots but not Keys.
2. If you select just a single chord, and that's it - no scale, the Root Key field has a value in it. And if you change that value the chord changes. So clearly it is a piece of data stored in the data structure of a chord object - if it wasn't then that field wouldn't be displayed when a chord is selected. Compare the available fields on the info line when just a chord or just a scale is selected. They share 2 data fields Start and Root Key but everything is is unique to one or the other.
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby raino » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:42 am

C.LYDE101 wrote:
arve.furset wrote:Chords should be able to transpose via the Transpose function in the midi menu.
...and They should instantly follow the Transpose Track....I know...probably possible in Cubase 8 ;)



It's possible right now - works like clock work. ;)


You're kidding right. The transpose function is greyed-out in the midi menu when chords are selected.
Transpose greyed out.jpg
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby vic_france » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:39 am

Just quickly trying that recipe here.. I can confirm.
This is what is happening here..
When I Select All, it selects also the Scale event, causing the Info Line to grey out. If I just de-select the Scale event, the Info Line then works o.k.
But, interestingly, after following the remainder of Steve's recipe, it then works o.k., even with that Scale event selected.
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby C.LYDE101 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:21 am

@Raino - the operative word is REFERS - read..don't ramble.

@SteveinChicago - cesium clock, every single time, behavior exactly as I expect and understand it to be designed

I'm done here... figure it out, don't figure out.. I'm busy making music....
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby raino » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:09 pm

vic_france wrote:Just quickly trying that recipe here.. I can confirm.
This is what is happening here..
When I Select All, it selects also the Scale event, causing the Info Line to grey out. If I just de-select the Scale event, the Info Line then works o.k.
But, interestingly, after following the remainder of Steve's recipe, it then works o.k., even with that Scale event selected.

Interesting. I played around with this and it seems that if Automatic Scales is enabled and you select both the chords and the scale then the Root Key is greyed out. But if you disable Automatic Scales it isn't.

Personally I always leave Automatic Scales off because it is annoying having it change the scale every time I use a chord with an out of scale note in it.
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Re: Transposing the Chord Track

Postby raino » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:17 pm

C.LYDE101 wrote:@Raino - the operative word is REFERS - read..don't ramble.

@SteveinChicago - cesium clock, every single time, behavior exactly as I expect and understand it to be designed

I'm done here... figure it out, don't figure out.. I'm busy making music....


Gee thanks, I hadn't realized I'd missed such a subtle distinction.

raino wrote:Also I'm pretty sure that Root Key refers to both the scale and the chord.
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