[Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

All feature requests and suggestions for upcoming releases of Cubase 7 and Cubase Artist 7 can be posted here.

Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Hidden mouse-over buttons should go away. It WAS better/faster workflow before.
53
75%
I don't mind the new Insert slot process.
12
17%
I'm in love with the current Insert Slot process.
6
8%
 
Total votes : 71

Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby tze019 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:40 am

I've stayed with C7 now for 6+ months trying to force myself to get used to the changes knowing completely that I "HATE" change. Now that it is fully engrained with all the current projects on the go, and the improved editing features (over C6.0.x) that I DO actually love, the hidden buttons have become SO frustrating that for the first time in 14 years, I'm considering other DAWs because I have to stop, use the mouse to display the info I want, and restart what I was doing.

I find myself always clicking a button I don't want to click if I'm not SUPER accurate with the mouse and I'm losing my patience with being angry when the button I want DOESN'T show up.

Being that the Editor window allows a switch between Bars & Knobs for the EQ, why couldn't this be done everywhere... perhaps even just a global preference. I don't EVER want bars or sliders (except faders), I ONLY want knobs.

I understand why some prefer the hidden buttons. But the hidden buttons and bars instead of knobs is SO detrimental to my workflow that without the option in the next update, I will be changing DAWs.

Also, if the next update isn't around by the new year, I may just change regardless.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby CubeDAW » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:29 pm

JMCecil wrote:I don't want to hover ... ever. I want to look and see.



By showing less, it looks cleaner so there are less distractions. The current way is better for me.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby JMCecil » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:32 pm

CubeDAW wrote:
JMCecil wrote:I don't want to hover ... ever. I want to look and see.



By showing less, it looks cleaner so there are less distractions. The current way is better for me.

that just means you don't mix and master, as those are the values that you use to do those things. They aren't a distraction, they are the data the matters.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby CubeDAW » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:40 pm

JMCecil wrote:that just means you don't mix and master, as those are the values that you use to do those things. They aren't a distraction, they are the data the matters.


The data is not what matters.

Somehow people have turned out better mixes with an analog hardware mixer and fewer effects. Of course I spend time mixing. When mixing, I leave the insert area open.

I do not understand this problem of accidentally opening inserts. This never happens for me. I think you guys need to get a bigger monitor. I believe the new mixer was made for a second monitor. I don't want to read too much crap on the mixer because my monitor mixer is is not in front of my face.

I would be curious to know how many people complaining here are using a laptop and a track pad? You need to get a real computer and real monitors.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby r.u.sirius » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:48 pm

three 23" Monitors here....the MC concept, if there is one, does not work for me at all. Complele status information and direct access is all I want from a mixer
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby JMCecil » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:51 pm

CubeDAW wrote:Of course I spend time mixing! When mixing, I leave the insert area open.

hmm ... The project I'm using now has over 450 inserts. Many of them are the same plugin. That would be impracticable.
I think you guys need to get a bigger monitor. I believe the new mixer was made for a second monitor. I don't want to read too much crap on the mixer because my monitor mixer is is not in front of my face.

Interesting, I have a 30" and either 1 or 2 24" depending and a 50" on the wall ... not sure how to get bigger than that.
I would be curious to know how many people complaining here are using a laptop and a track pad? You need to get a real computer and real monitors.

I don't use a laptop for this stuff at all. To be honest I have the same concept that the people that don't mind are the EDM laptop "producers" ... so maybe both our prejudices are misplaced.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby JMCecil » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:04 pm

CubeDAW wrote:Somehow people have turned out better mixes with an analog hardware mixer and fewer effects.

Apples vs Horses.

The advantage of the DAW is for example the project with 100 tracks and 100 instances of an SSL channel strip. I can't SEE the 100 instances of the plugins, like I could if they were a linear analog board.

So, lets just agree that people want different things and for a lot of us, the current mixer has some short comings.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby mpayne0 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:52 pm

Whether right or wrong, I think there is room for improvement.

But lets not assume that these are easy design fixes, they aren't. As soon as you attempt to resolve one thing, you create another problem. Kinda like mixing!

I would love to see some other kind of behavior for mouseovers, especially when viewing narrow strips, I'm a designer myself, and I do not know of any easy solution that opens another can of worms. The more information you have, the smaller area that you have to aim for with the cursor, the smaller the buttons are going to be there is no way around it.

I would probably vote for a user configurable setup where one could choose a specific toolset to conform to their own workflow. Actually the configurartion of the transport bar is quite amazing, as is the arrangement tools options where you can choose, sort the buttons, even dictate no. of characters in a line.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby tze019 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:51 pm

CubeDAW wrote:
JMCecil wrote:that just means you don't mix and master, as those are the values that you use to do those things. They aren't a distraction, they are the data the matters.


The data is not what matters.

Somehow people have turned out better mixes with an analog hardware mixer and fewer effects. Of course I spend time mixing. When mixing, I leave the insert area open.

I do not understand this problem of accidentally opening inserts. This never happens for me. I think you guys need to get a bigger monitor. I believe the new mixer was made for a second monitor. I don't want to read too much crap on the mixer because my monitor mixer is is not in front of my face.

I would be curious to know how many people complaining here are using a laptop and a track pad? You need to get a real computer and real monitors.


I have to agree with JMCecil. Those of us having work flow issues are not generally restricted by our interfaces. I run 3 monitors, 24 faders of MCU Pro, CMC series toys... and for the few things I still have to go to the computer for, I want certain information displayed in a certain way. Having fixed real-estate for individual controls is more important to me than plugin/preset name because those are pieces of info that hold no value. I know what I have inserted and how I have things routed. I don't use presets. But I DO bypass/engage, I do switch pre/post, I do want to know what is open but hidden behind something.

And most importantly, I want to turn knobs and flick switches, not hover my mouse so I can find out the information that is relevant to me or find the right place to hover so I can find the button I need.

Having alternate GUIs for different workflows would be enough to keep me a happy, loyal CuBase user.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby JMCecil » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:05 pm

Delete: wow, that was weird.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby JMCecil » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:07 pm

mpayne0 wrote:But lets not assume that these are easy design fixes, they aren't. As soon as you attempt to resolve one thing, you create another problem.


And, fwiw, they don't need to invent anything, or come up with some new clever mechanism. The 6.5 mixer experience was outstanding, as was the control room. The reasons have been beat to death, I'll not rehash that. Looking forward to 7.5.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby msy » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:40 pm

I really thought Steinberg would address this in 7.5. Maybe in Cubase 8 or 9? :cry:
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby Starsprinkler » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:02 am

There's no room for static buttons in the mixer slots. The hidden buttons save valuable space.
It also makes a cleaner no-cluttered look. I think it's a suitable approach in the mixer.

The hidden buttons could be more strictly within it's own slot though, not interfering with surrounding slots causing miss-clicks which some people state as a problem.

The channel central has considerably more space, so there static buttons could be used instead of the hidden ones.
Last edited by Starsprinkler on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby r.u.sirius » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:29 pm

I don´t get this non-cluttered approach....
in the first place I want information by looking at my mixer! Digging for information is time consuming!
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby Starsprinkler » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:42 pm

r.u.sirius wrote:I don´t get this non-cluttered approach....
in the first place I want information by looking at my mixer! Digging for information is time consuming!

Yes, but simply buttons don't give you any information. What is there to dig for? There are no values or so hiding from you. A button is a button... or a lot of buttons when multiplying them for every channel, just taking up space, unnecessary.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby r.u.sirius » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:46 pm

a button shows on/off status and shows instantly where to click to enable or disable a function
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby Starsprinkler » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:52 pm

The whole slot is color indicated for on/off status. Is that not enough?
It takes like 10 seconds to learn where to click.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby r.u.sirius » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:59 pm

but it takes time to bring up the clicking area again and again, which sums up quite a bit when mixing for some hours
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby Starsprinkler » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:21 pm

Yes, there shouldn't be any delay, the clicking areas and buttons should respond and show up immediately.
I'm sure it can be adjusted.

EDIT: there's no real delay for the white dots and buttons itself (except a barely noticeable delay for the dots), but the process of first getting the white dots, and THEN see and move to the buttons slows down a little bit and may not be the best approach.

It may be better to skip the white dots and show the hidden buttons directly when hovering over the slot.
Probably the white dots are there to not hide the text, but showing the buttons directly may be better anyway. It gives a little faster workflow to click (and also shows quicker what button is where).
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby JMCecil » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:46 pm

Starsprinkler wrote:Yes, there shouldn't be any delay, the clicking areas and buttons should respond and show up immediately.
I'm sure it can be adjusted.

And yet even in their own demo videos the guys are always clicking the wrong thing, or it doesn't respond to the click etc... How many times did the guy in the DV47 videos say "sorry .." as the wrong interface appeared, he had to close the window and reclick to get what he really wanted. He had countless false clicks where nothing happened... Keep in mind I don't want to click EVER, but have no choice. Then, to have it be so F'n clunky is very irritating.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby dorremifasol » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:50 pm

I prefer to have buttons for all. Icons to be exact, which are universal. 4 icons above the name of the plugin can't take too much space in the slot. They didn't take that much before, and we used much less resolution then!
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby JMCecil » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:57 pm

dorremifasol wrote:I prefer to have buttons for all. Icons to be exact, which are universal. 4 icons above the name of the plugin can't take too much space in the slot. They didn't take that much before, and we used much less resolution then!

Agreed ... but, the real problem is the responsiveness, the focus issues and the various bugs like console configurations being grayed out on project reload, zoom settings being lost, the console going wonky and requiring a "reset window", so that you get to reset everything all over again.

Seriously, although I think 6.5 mixer was better, I could happily use this if those things got fixed. They are going to have to do a lot of convincing on the Control Room though ... that thing went completely the wrong direction.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby Starsprinkler » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:17 pm

JMCecil wrote:the guys are always clicking the wrong thing, or it doesn't respond to the click

This is because the button and the affecting click area are not perfectly syncronised. The click area are actually bigger than the button itself (which also goes outside its own slot).

So the click areas should be exactly the same size and place as the buttons, which therefore also should be square, and placed exclusively inside its own slot (even if it hides a bit more text).
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby Starsprinkler » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:45 pm

dorremifasol wrote:I prefer to have buttons for all. Icons to be exact, which are universal. 4 icons above the name of the plugin can't take too much space in the slot. They didn't take that much before, and we used much less resolution then!

It would more or less double up vertical space (unless these icons would be very small and tiny), at least for some sections like Insert and Send. That may be a problem, or not, it may result in more vertical scrolling instead.

But a little bit on the way could be to skip the white dots and show the hidden buttons directly when hovering.

In the Channel Settings I agree, because there's plenty of space.
There could be 2 static buttons to the left, Bypass and Deactivate, and 2 static buttons to the right, Select and Preset.
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Re: [Poll] Fix the insert handling in the new mixer console?

Postby msy » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:03 am

I can live with hidden mouse-over if they are responsive (ie show up directly without delay like they do currently).

...and...

PLEASE Steinberg, for the next update:
the clickable area should be the EXACT same as the area of the pixels that represents the button

This is something that will take a couple of minutes to adjust for any programmer.
Right now it is too easy to accidentally click the wrong button/insert slot.
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