Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Post questions and find answers on our latest WaveLab releases here.

Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby geezer » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:27 am

Since I was involved in some medical issues all winter and have just returned to this forum after upgrading to WL8, it is possible I have missed talk about the bugs I am raising here, but have not seen them by looking back for several pages.

.....With a new install of WL8 over the previous WL7, I opened a project from WL7 and did some tests of new mastering plugins and saved the Montage. With some sense I suppose, the Master section and plugin chain returns after exiting then reopening WL.

1)However, I cannot save the Montage in such a way to now stop this test Master section and the associated plugs from being there every time I reopen the program, no matter how I define the layout, including resaving the Montage without the Master module and plugs, and:

2)Most, if not all, of the preferences I change before any save will return the next time I reopen the program, not matter how I have saved. If there is some way to maintain the persistence of the state of these preferences? Many of them matter a great deal to me as they can hide what I am actually listening to......a very dangerous state for the mastering process. One of these new selections available in the Options menu is especially disturbing:

3)I have determined that having a check by "Listen (or maybe it says "playback") through Master section" will unequivocally alter the sound, even with absolutely no plugins or dither in place. To my ears, despite the fact that the bit meter still registers 24 bits, the effect is like a slight reduction in bit depth. There is a clear narrowing of the soundfield, reduction in complexity and audibility of reverb tails, with a slight brightening......This unwanted check is always there when I reopen the program, which is unacceptable.

......I discovered this by comparing the sound of the files playing back through my older WL7 computer from mixes that I had worked on enough to have a clear understanding of how they sounded.....and how they should sound.

I am upgrading 3 different computers at once, so have not put 8.02 in place yet. If these issues are addressed in 8.02, great, but I have seen no other mention of them in this list.

I will read the manual to see if I am missing something. Hopefully the manual is more thorough the WL7 manual was.
Jim Smith
Muddy Hole Studios LLC
www.muddyhole.com
geezer
Junior Member
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:24 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby PG » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:38 am

For 1) and 2), what option do you choose at startup? According to what you seem to wish, you should choose one of the hilited options:
2013-07-08_07-31-11.png
(11.42 KiB) Not downloaded yet


If you don't see this dialog when running WaveLab, press and maintain Control (Command on the Mac) pressed while launching.

For Master Section plugins, there is an additional option:
2013-07-08_07-33-29.png
(30.25 KiB) Not downloaded yet


For 3) I am not sure what option you are referring to. The only one I have in mind, "Play through Master Section" is the option for Basic Audio CDs. AFAIK, this works correctly (when you start playback *from* the Basic Audio CD window).
Philippe
PG
Moderator
 
Posts: 3497
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby geezer » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:47 pm

Choosing the options listed, as well as the others, does not fix the problem(s). That is really the whole point of my post.


When I get into the office in a couple of hours, I will investigate further and give you some more descriptive information.
Jim Smith
Muddy Hole Studios LLC
www.muddyhole.com
geezer
Junior Member
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:24 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby geezer » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:31 pm

All right. I am sitting in front of the computer and can better describe the unexpected and unwanted behaviors as listed above (this is, by the way, my XEON 8 core with 16gigs RAM using a lynx AES 16pcie card).

-Both of the options you ask me to check above are consistently being checked in the fashion you request, yet the unwanted behaviors exist.

-The "Play Through Master Section" menu choice I refer to is at the bottom of the Options menu that appears in the menu bar for the Montage section (Options in File/editing section are different)......I consistently uncheck this before quitting and saving, and it consistently is back on when I reopen the program.

-After emptying the Master Section and making sure it is disabled in both the Montage and File windows (having it in one and not the other is a completely new behavior, by the way, and does not logically follow the "shared tool windows" concept from WL7), then saving, exiting and reopening the program (with the "restore last layout" option and with the similar option checked in the Master Section settings menu), I consistently get the old plug-in chain GUIs from the Master section displaying over the Files section window with the Master section itself sitting loaded in the Files section window, but the option for the Master section being unchecked in the Workspace menu for the Montage section.

-With the program open, I clear all the plugins from the Master section and close it out......but the difference in sound remains between having the "Play Through Master Section" checked in the Options menu for the Montage compared to when it is unchecked.......With today's fresh ears, it seems that what I am hearing when it is checked might actually be the Master section with the restored plugin/dithering chain that I keep trying to eliminate......even though the bit meter is displaying 24 bits.

......In any case, it is completely unacceptable for me not to know clearly what is going on with the Master section inside a mastering program.

With all the new monitoring functions, and with some options which are yet unclear to me (like an option for "Monitor 16 bit dithering"....currently unchecked in the Master section settings menu), there is the huge potential for confusion about what one is listening to at any given time. This is new, and makes it even harder to define bugs or lack thereof.

No matter what, I desperately need a way to make the settings I choose persistent through an exit and program restart , and I need a way to be absolutely sure of the internal signal chain I am listening to. If you can point me to a working methodology to achieve this beyond your instructions above, that would be great. The instructions above do not fix the problem.
Jim Smith
Muddy Hole Studios LLC
www.muddyhole.com
geezer
Junior Member
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:24 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby PG » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:34 pm

-The "Play Through Master Section" menu choice I refer to is at the bottom of the Options menu that appears in the menu bar for the Montage section (Options in File/editing section are different)......I consistently uncheck this before quitting and saving, and it consistently is back on when I reopen the program.


This option is not a global option. This is a per-file option. It is meant to be temporary used, hence this is not persistent.
If you want to bypass the Master Section always, click on the bottom right button of the Master Section. This is persistent.

After emptying the Master Section and making sure it is disabled in both the Montage and File windows (having it in one and not the other is a completely new behavior, by the way, and does not logically follow the "shared tool windows" concept from WL7)


Wrong. This has not changed as all compared to WaveLab 7. There is a single Master Section with a single plugin chain.

then saving, exiting and reopening the program (with the "restore last layout" option and with the similar option checked in the Master Section settings menu), I consistently get the old plug-in chain GUIs from the Master section displaying over the Files section window with the Master section itself sitting loaded in the Files section window


Normal, no? But BTW, a "layout" is not a plugin chain. This is completly independent.

but the option for the Master section being unchecked in the Workspace menu for the Montage section.


What option?

-With the program open, I clear all the plugins from the Master section and close it out......but the difference in sound remains between having the "Play Through Master Section" checked in the Options menu for the Montage compared to when it is unchecked.......With today's fresh ears, it seems that what I am hearing when it is checked might actually be the Master section with the restored plugin/dithering chain that I keep trying to eliminate......even though the bit meter is displaying 24 bits


Hmm, your description is not very clear. Do you really remove the plugins, or simply hide their window (in this last case, the plugins are still active). If you clear the plugins, for sure they are not used anymore.
Philippe
PG
Moderator
 
Posts: 3497
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby geezer » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:35 pm

Since you want to reply to me only in this thread, not the other one I started with quite a bit more detail about the program's behavior, I will have to duplicate some of that info here.

..............yes, I really do remove the plugins. The "Restore last setup at next startup" option in the settings menu for the Master Section does not restore the empty setup you leave, but the last plug-in chain you had put together. This does not seem logical to me, but is the way it works, consistently. Therefore the only way to start up with an empty chain is to uncheck that box.
..............The option in the Workspace menu for shared tools/Master Section is for DISPLAY ONLY (as is hitting the X on the Master window) and does not affect the actual functionality of the Master Section (the Master Section is always in line), and is separate and distinct for the Files Workspace as opposed to The Montage. In other words, even though the Master Section is active, you are simply choosing whether to see it or not in the two workspaces, separately. I don't think WL7 worked that way, though it is possible with the terrible manual that it was simply not obvious....or not obvious how to disable the Master Section.
.............You can "hard bypass" the Master Section within the Files workspace by clicking on the button near the right end of the info bar, but this is not persistent, either, and the logic of the same button inside the Montage is a little screwy (look at my entry in the other thread).
.............You have given me a way that is persistent to "hard bypass" the Master Section (button at bottom right of Master Section), so thanks. That is a partial workable solution.

.....Given the extreme importance of a transparent Master Section in this program and the fact that I am still hearing a difference in audio between a "hard bypass" and an empty Master Section that is not bypassed, and given the extreme importance of understanding how dither is affecting your processing, I would really appreciate some thought about 2 more things:
-The "Monitor 16 bit dithering" selection in the Master Section settings menu is more than a little confusing to me. When unchecked, are you simply bypassing whatever dither you have in the dithering section, even if this dithering were some other value than 16bit? If that is not the case, what dither is use when you have the box checked?
-It seems to me that the "Smart Bypass" in this section is always engaged in that you can't disengage it, only select its path. Perhaps this is why I always hear a difference when I monitor through an empty Master section......In any case, please take this concern about the sound of the empty Master Section seriously. This is not something I heard in previous versions of the program.


...............
Jim Smith
Muddy Hole Studios LLC
www.muddyhole.com
geezer
Junior Member
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:24 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby PG » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:48 pm

.yes, I really do remove the plugins. The "Restore last setup at next startup" option in the settings menu for the Master Section does not restore the empty setup you leave, but the last plug-in chain you had put together. This does not seem logical to me, but is the way it works, consistently. Therefore the only way to start up with an empty chain is to uncheck that box.


What you describe here is not the way it is meant to work. And I can't reproduce a problem here.
The last Master Section preset is stored in this file:
C:\Users\UserName\AppData\Roaming\Steinberg\WaveLab 8\Cache\Window Config\MasterSectionPreset.dat

Try erasing this file once, and reload WaveLab. Maybe it's read-only by mistake?

The option in the Workspace menu for shared tools/Master Section is for DISPLAY ONLY


Yes. Hiding the Master Section does not mean it is not active (in the same way as a plugin: no window does not mean the plugin does not work).

-The "Monitor 16 bit dithering" selection in the Master Section settings menu is more than a little confusing to me. When unchecked, are you simply bypassing whatever dither you have in the dithering section, even if this dithering were some other value than 16bit?


No. If this is unchecked (the default), then WaveLab does nothing. It uses the Master Section as it is set, nothing more, nothing else.
If the option is On, then WaveLab reduce the level at the Master Section input by -48 dB, and raise the level again at the output. This is only to make "hearable" what's happening at the low levels.

-It seems to me that the "Smart Bypass" in this section is always engaged in that you can't disengage it


No. Make bit custom corrections, to make it obvious, and you'll see this is not the case.

I am still hearing a difference in audio between a "hard bypass" and an empty Master Section


Maybe an explanation: if you don't have any plugin in the Master Section, but have "Monitor 16 bit plugin", then you have a process going on, and the sound will not be the same as a fully bypassed Master Section.
Other than that, I can't imagine a difference.
Philippe
PG
Moderator
 
Posts: 3497
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby geezer » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:02 am

-----In terms of the behavior of the "Save setup for next startup", all I can tell you is that is how it is functioning on my machine. I will do some more testing and/or remove the file and reinstall and see if anything is fixed or changed.

-It seems to me that the "Smart Bypass" in this section is always engaged in that you can't disengage it


"No. Make bit custom corrections, to make it obvious, and you'll see this is not the case."
''
-------------------Please think this through and verify. One cannot turn this section off, but only select direct sound, processed sound or processed sound with level adjustment. It is possible that some of what I have heard is occurring because of the second or third option being selected without my seeing it (it is hidden), but I can guarantee you that I am hearing a difference. I will do a little further testing to see if this is part of what is going on.

---------------Making an "obvious" change will not be useful since I am already hearing a difference without having any processing in place. The point is not that I am hearing the level adjusted or processed signal, but that I am hearing a difference in the unprocessed signal when the Master Section is not bypassed completely.

--------------Such differences, although subtle, are extremely important for my work decisions and tend to influence how I master in a significant way. The whole point of the mastering chain and setup is to be absolutely certain of what you are listening to and absolutely certain that you are or are not changing the sound in the digital domain. If the Master Section always changes the sound, even in a subtle way, the process is degraded.

--------------As stated above, I will try to do some additional testing to verify what I am hearing and under what conditions that is true. Understanding what my true "hard bypass" options are now will help quite a bit in making these tests more definitive.
Jim Smith
Muddy Hole Studios LLC
www.muddyhole.com
geezer
Junior Member
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:24 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby PG » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:54 am

Again, make sure to turn off "Monitor 16 bit plugin".
Philippe
PG
Moderator
 
Posts: 3497
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby geezer » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:49 pm

Understood.....but I have not yet ever turned it on. I wasn't going to change anything without understanding how it works, and your explanation has now made that clear.

Will do more testing as promised when I am able to get back into the office this evening, and will report back anything I find that relates to my concerns. I will upgrade to 8.02 before performing these tests to make sure that any glitches have not already been dealt with.

Thanks for all your responses.
Jim Smith
Muddy Hole Studios LLC
www.muddyhole.com
geezer
Junior Member
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:24 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Unwanted persistance and improper saves, Master section

Postby geezer » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:30 pm

Upgraded to 8.02 this morning and did extensive tests for all issues above. The news is pretty good:

-The unwanted persistence of plugins with the "Restore last setup at new startup" option clicked on the Master Section settings menu is now gone. In other words, with this option checked, I can now completely clear all plugs and dithers from the Master Section before exiting the program, and they are still gone when I reopen. Since you said this is how it is supposed to work, but was not, I am assuming this was either fixed by 8.02 or the reinstall cleared the memory in a way that fixed it......Since I have seen several posts with similar statements, it strikes me that maybe 8.02 did clear at least a portion of this.

-Now that I understand completely the methodology for achieving a "hard bypass" for the Master Section, I was able to do quite extensive and precise listening tests through the Master Section with it cleared of all plugins and compare it to a hard bypass. I have to say that any differences I hear on my monitoring rig here (Dynaudio BM15As, fed by Dangerous Music "The Monitor" reference converters) are too subtle to be concerned about, if at all. I will at some point in the future listen on my colleague's Meyers X-10s, but will have to cart my computer there since he is still deliberately using WL6......However, I am fairly convinced at this point that the critical issues I was hearing are not there after the combination of putting in 8.02 and understanding a bit more about the software signal path.

-I did quite a bit of testing with the "Smart Bypass" window open, but plugs and dithers cleared out. I do believe I heard some very minor changes when in certain modes, but also verified that: 1)When the Smart Bypass window is closed, it is bypassed or off, thus explaining your concern about my statement of "not being able to turn it off", and 2)When the Smart Bypass window is open and you have "original audio" checked, I can discern no difference between a hard bypass of the Master section and the Master Section open with the Smart Bypass window opened, but with "original audio" checked. This is very good and exactly how it should be. Thank you.

-The testing I did with plugins in place using Smart Bypass made me think that the auto adjust feature for loudness compensation maybe does not work so well (or I don't know how to set it properly), but, since you have installed a custom level value window, this is totally usable, a la the old Finalizer compare function. Easy enough to make sure both situations sound equally loud by adjusting this every time by ear.

-I also verified that the Speaker Configuration setup, including the master volume knob, is completely independent of the Master Section, even though included in that display. This is also very good, given that it would be a serious trap if adjusted to something other than zero and was tied to the Master Section being functional. Thank you again. Good programming.

-Finally, now that all of that was taken care of, I did a little testing of the "monitor 16 bit function", which, as I said, I had never had checked prior to this. I used it with and without various dithers in place......I have to say that, although I will generally listen to the effect of dithers without this in place, I did find it useful. So, another good feature.

......All in all, this was a very reassuring session. Thanks for your patience as you related to all my questions.
Jim Smith
Muddy Hole Studios LLC
www.muddyhole.com
geezer
Junior Member
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:24 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time


Return to WaveLab 8 | WaveLab Elements 8

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest