Yes, I use the Score editor...

For users of legacy Steinberg Cubase software

Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby S4410 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:29 pm

Another score user here.
I like to check my midi recordings in score edit and i print score parts to my musicians.Since i don't need to print full arrangements i never bothered learning other programs like Sibelius although i find it much more full featured.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby Tomateck » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:54 am

Hi guys,
I'm on Cubase score editor for arranging and printing.
As many of you, I know the needs and problems that comes when you need to write a complex score and presentable at the same time.
I state that in other cases I had to learn to use Finale (I tried Sibelius Demo for a short time) and the Apple Logic score.
Well, I know the score editor in Cubase 5/6 is very good and I am sure that in many cases is much simpler and more intuitive compared to titled softwares.
I am convinced that Cubase needs enhancements, not many, but few effective.
For example, should be improved:

1 - the automatic spacing when inserting text lyrics. When notes are close, text began to be unreadable, unless you apply the Automatic Layout;
2 - the ability to select and move individual lyrics verses without manually select with the mouse;
3 - On polyphonic lines (es: piano line with 1+2 and 3+4 voice) I want to write on the second or fourth voice, I must be careful not to pass on other staves with the pen, this will cause the reset of voice number;
4 - The Automatic Layout should have many more advanced options, should take into account many more variables, should be the magic bullet that saves time with one click, should have that "WOW" factor....
5 - I do not know if it's just my problem, but scrolling with the magic mouse (on OSX) in page mode, remain traces of the song position cursor, the same way when I put the notes in step by step (I propose this as a bug).

Surely there are other points on which to discuss, but I can assure you that other softwares do other things uncomfortable for a long list.
Score in Cubase is very complete, should be improved some existing features.

Tommy
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby Terry » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:30 am

Wow, some other Atari 1040 folks. I started to using Score when it first appeared and actually got a handle on it but switched to Finale in 2003. I do a lot of big band stuff and I liked being able to use the Jazz Font.
Having said that, I opend C6 Score Editor tonight and actually found it not to bad but still cumbersome. I'll use it for chord charts and some lead sheets if I can figure out how to replace the notes with rhy slashes...anyone got a clue on that?

Thanks

Terry

PS
I started on Pro 24 before it was VST, Cubase, etc. We did cartoon music and had SMPTE running off the ntape decks, no digital audio in those days, I live in LA and Russ Jones (Steinberg/Jones) ran it out of his garage in Northridge. I suddenly feel old!!
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby vic_france » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:46 pm

Terry wrote:... I'll use it for chord charts and some lead sheets if I can figure out how to replace the notes with rhy slashes...anyone got a clue on that?

(Started on Atari 1040/Pro 24 here too ;) )...
It's a bit cumbersome, but you can get there (eventually!) via the Set Note Info dialog.. but first, if you have chords (as displayed MIDI notes), you'll need to Hide all but a single note (otherwise you'll get a slash for every note). You might in fact prefer to create a duplicate MIDI track.
So..
1) Go through the Score, and Hide any notes that would cause duplicate slashes (so your score now looks like a single melody line.. of course it doesn't matter which notes in the chord you decided to Hide.. this is purely visual). The quickest way, in fact, is to select the single notes that you wish to keep visible, then use the Edit menu>Select>Invert, then Hide (making sure you are not also hiding rests etc.).
2) Select all remaining notes, and open the Set Note Info dialog.
3) Activate "No Stems"
4) Open the Note Head dropdown at the top-left of the Set Note Info dialog, and select one of the "slash-type" note heads.
5) Apply.

Unfortunately, that still leaves the slashes at the vertical position of the notes that they replace.. which is why I recommended using a duplicate track, and replacing all notes/chords with a single note at a fixed pitch.

We certainly could do with a function that accomplished all that in one go (and, unfortunately, it is beyond the scope of what can be done via a macro)
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby zoot » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:29 pm

Well, I have used Cubase Score from the days of Cubase VST Score where you had to pay extra for the privelage. I have, unlike many in this thread, used the score editor exclusively for entering data 9as that is the way that I think), and then tweaking it later in the other editors.

However, the score editor in C6 now winds me up to the popint where I want to throw it out of the window. I will accept that some of my problems might be an RTFM solution, but it just seems so unintuitive. Because of its obvious emphasis on layout, it can make certain things very difficult (or less intitive) -insert a crotchet on the first beat of a bar in 4/4, and then try to insert a minim on the second beat. Gah..... yes, it can be done, but it is a pain.

I also have problems with setting out scores for printing (not that it bothers me that much). So, I use Sibelius 6 because it is pleasant, intuitive, and does what I want very quickly. Then, I simply export into Cubase (although I have not yet investigated MusicXML which sounds very exciting.

On a positive note, the score editor in C6 handles triplets much better than any previous version.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby mozart » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:53 pm

I'm wondering if a problem I have in 5.5 is there in 6?

If I select multiple parts and open them in the score editor, Cubase gives the old "save yourself, women and children first" alert and then slows down to snails pace unless I restart. I've noticed this problem was around in Cubase 4 as well.

Does this happen in 6?

I like to open say, all my brass parts in the score editor and tidy them up before exporting xml to Sib
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby vic_france » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:20 pm

mozart wrote:I like to open say, all my brass parts in the score editor and tidy them up before exporting xml to Sib

When you say "all my brass parts", are you referring to single parts, but on several tracks (giving you a grand staff in the Score), or are there several Parts on a single track? (I always glue the parts together before doing any serious score editing, especially if it involves Layout editing).
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby mozart » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:26 pm

Hi Vic. Hope you are well.

Thanks for your reply.

Sorry for not being clear. The first option I think. Say, a track of trumpet, one of sax and one of bone. Each track has one long continuous part. I lasso all three parts and then go into the score editor.

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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Conman » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:55 pm

parnasso wrote:
Conman wrote:
Well, I have to disagree that the score editor is meant only for graphical purposes and printing, I think it is an absolutely indispensable tool for composing. How do you want to write arrangements for various instruments like, let's say, a string section or a brass section if you don't see the notes for each instrument?
I mean, you can of course arrange everything in your head and just record the parts into the arrange window if you are a genius like Mozart (who mostly had his compositions perfectly ready in his head and just wrote them down)... but for us mere mortals it is much easier and even necessary to see how to distribute all the voices and decide which note goes to which instrument. So, how do you want to compose complex arrangements without the score editor?


I'm taking it seriously but I suspect it's a joke,

REAL musicians, and ordinary, not geniuses like Mozza, have done it for years using nought but a pencil and paper.
God! You'd think nobody wrote music before they invented Cubase score editor!?

Learn how to use a pen and paper. You'll have revelation. You can buy special lined paper too. Looks just like proper music stuff. :mrgreen:

It just gets better in here every day. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: You couldn't make it up.


Oh man... no need to become condescending!

Where did I write that you can compose only with Cubase's score editor?! Such a nonsense.
I spoke about score editors (or their equivalent on paper) in general.

I have used pencil and paper myself, thank you, I don't need your revelations. And if you write that real musicians composed and arranged on paper then they did (and still do it) for exactly the same reason I have mentioned above: one needs to see the various voices in order to better arrange and distribute the notes.
But if you want to work with virtual instruments then I guess pencil and paper won't suffice, don't you think? One needs a sequencer for that. And I think it's more convenient to arrange directly in Cubase than to use an external notation program like Finale or Sibelius (or even write everything on paper) first and then record it in Cubase. That's why I'm interested in some further development of Cubase's score editor.


Condescending? Moi! I think you missed the humour button. Yes Score is designed for printing. Yes, creativity (someone elses contribution averred to here) can mean using it for whatever your brain can think of but also creativity is enhanced by the very restrictions of the tools to hand. But if you are being "creative" in the way you use the Score then it's best remembered what it's designed for and what the designer wants to do with it and be aware of any limitations that may impose. So, if you want a legible score sometimes you may have to tidy up the arrangement in other editors where that is easier to do especially if you use a sequencer and you have played a lovely sounding glissando, say, which looks awful in the score editor & / or print preview.
So in a lot of cases you realistically would have to work with the list and score editors in tandem say, knocking out the first and last notes of the gliss in List and drawing a gliss between the notes in score. It would then, of course, sound just the two notes on playback.

I agree that the Score features improvements are more cosmetic than editorial advances which is why, since the Atari version, I don't use it exclusively for any real editing as there are, and always have been, many pitfalls in that approach. However, used with care and with the List editor, it does produce impressive results for what it is.
Sorry, but I didn't think I was being condescending enough there. :mrgreen:
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby vic_france » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:09 pm

mozart wrote:I'm wondering if a problem I have in 5.5 is there in 6?

If I select multiple parts and open them in the score editor, Cubase gives the old "save yourself, women and children first" alert and then slows down to snails pace unless I restart. I've noticed this problem was around in Cubase 4 as well.

Does this happen in 6?

Hi again,
well, not sure what to say here.. I very rarely experience anything like the problems you describe. I can merely guess that there is something inherently different in our respective workflows, with the result that I (accidentally?) don't do something that must be the root of the problem.
Have you been able to at least narrow this down to some specific action?
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby Conman » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:53 pm

Mozart's problem is a funny one. A fair number seem to have it if the majority don't. Could be graphics or ram based but probably not the whole story.

The forum really should be more co-operative in comparing who gets certain problems which only affect a minority of members so it can possibly be nailed down to a component etc. Though strangely it's mostly the ones with the problem who are unwilling to compare systems or investigate further than trying to nail a certain member of staff or two.
It's really not enough to say "It only happens with Cubase" because that's not the full story most of the time either. To get to the bottom of any intermittent fault on anything takes a lot of input from the end-user to home in on what the bug is and where and what component or driver needs to be addressed by the bug-fix.

I think that Score crash is a bug but I just don't think there's enough feedback for the programmers to nail it.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby mozart » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:22 pm

Hi guys. Thanks for your replies. I have long wondered if my rather aging nvidia 7300 LE graphics card was the problem, although I have heard of a few other people having similar problems with other hard / soft combinations

I haven't really spent enough time testing it as I was on a tight deadline . Instead I took midi files from Cubase and tarted them up in Sibelius but it would have been quicker to do more of the donkey work in Cubase I think.... and then produce xmls.

Anyway no worries :-)
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby Conman » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:42 pm

I think if you spend a lot of time setting up Cubase Score and the settings from the Preferences & Score Settings / Project setup you may get quicker results. It does however take regular use to acclimatise yourself to the many settings though the presets are a fairly good place to start.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby suntower » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:47 pm

As I see it, the problem with S/B improving Score is that it's getting harder to use -any- score editor with -any- DAW and I -mostly- blame Sample Lib vendors.

I mostly write music for live performance where there will be some 'backing tracks'. So there is some MIDI going on with the musicians 'playing along'.

I would -love- to be able to generate a good mockup from the CPR using VSL or -whatever-, then generate notation from the same MIDI for the 'real' performance... and not have to go through all the import/export to Sibelius.

But it's a TOTAL pain... not so much because the notes are wrong, but because you have to go through all these gymnastics to include the key switches and articulations. IOW: if you want to make a decent mockup, the generated MIDI will be useless for generating notation. And if you try to keep the notation straight, the mockup sounds unrealistic. So I usually end up writing the same piece THREE TIMES.
1. For a mock up to get hired.
2. For notation to get rehearsed.
3. For the final performance version with the backing tracks

It actually takes -longer- than if I just used pencil/paper... and could afford a team of elves to then generate the MIDI like Hans does.

Now... if VSL, EW, et al. would support Note Expression? I think this would be much easier. But they don't, and seem to have no intention of doing so. Try doing divisis with any high end sample lib... how can you expect Score to work with -that-?

Same with other S/B innovations, like VST3. So many plugs don't support the S/B standards. And don't get me started on how long in the tooth MIDI is.

I would -love- for Score to be worked on; I find it pretty usable as is and don't quite get all the vitriol. But without some help from the other vendors, I don't know if it's worth S/B putting a ton of time into it. Seriously: how many people are even -notating- any more?

That said, if I could have one request: It would be a dedicated Lyric Track Type in the arranger. It would be like a normal MIDI channel, but you could place words above each note and in the score the text would properly stretch and format as is standard practice in concert music.

And if I was greedy and allowed another wish? It would be a modern percussion stave for multi-percussionists.

And if I was a whiner... I'd wonder why the new 'chord' thingee wasn't integrated properly. But since I don't see myself using it much, I'll stop.

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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby Strophoid » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:55 am

Nice post Suntower. Would you reckon if there was a way to filter keyswitches from your MIDI score works fine?
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby suntower » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:02 pm

Strophoid wrote:Nice post Suntower. Would you reckon if there was a way to filter keyswitches from your MIDI score works fine?


Well, there is, sorta. But... of course not. That's only a fraction of the battle.

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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby SteveInChicago » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:59 pm

suntower wrote:I would -love- for Score to be worked on
did you know: viewtopic.php?p=181908
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby suntower » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:21 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:
suntower wrote:I would -love- for Score to be worked on
did you know: viewtopic.php?p=181908


Yes, and though to you I may appear to be someone who is never satisfied, I have seen -way- too many 'grand initiatives' from S/B go down the pan to get overly excited. (There was a pun in there.)

Also, the point of my previous post is that I'm starting to think there is only so much that S/B can really do in this regard. There just aren't that many people using notation any more... and the VSL and EWs of the world don't make it any easier by not properly supporting the really cool stuff S/B has worked on (VST3, Note Expression.) I get routinely laughed at on the VSL forum for bringing up better integration. Apparently composers don't care because---the final product -is- the samples. If they need notation? They basically re-write it in Finale. OK, so that means that the KEY advantage Score has... integration... isn't realistic. I really think Note Expression and VST Expression are -fantastic-. If they could just get VSL or EW to provide full support for all that stuff? I would be 100% more enthusiastic about putting more time into Score.

So my guess is that this 'alliance' is largely because Sibelius et. al. are feeling like buggy whip makers in 1915.

I'd be more positive if S/B had a better track record with this sort of 'partnership'. And if I felt better with the overall state of notated music in general.

Best,

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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby SteveInChicago » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:26 pm

suntower wrote:Yes, and though to you I may appear to be someone who is never satisfied

? I don't think about you that much.

BTW - did you understand that press release to say Sibelius and Steinberg were working together from the PR I linked?
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby curteye » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:23 pm

curteye wrote:Mahalo,
Between you and Vic France I might be able to crack it this time.

I'll keep you posted.
{'-'}



UPDATE: Perhaps no more Sebelius for me.

After almost a year or so I decided to try a lil notation work in C7.
I do not know why but suddenly I can get my head around it.

A day or two ago I did a lil score work which took me no time at all. :)
Just a simple lead sheet with chords and lyrics but everything worked
and printed out just fine.

Later this week I will see just how far I can take this. I'll post the results.

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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby N8 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:29 pm

I take it no one's read where some of the Sibilus devs now work for SteinyUK and future updates of C7 will see the results.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby curteye » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:36 pm

N8 wrote:I take it no one's read where some of the Sibilus devs now work for SteinyUK and future updates of C7 will see the results.


Yes I have read that.

So in a future version of Cubase I'll be back to
working with a form of Sebelius while using Cubase?

KOOL!

I can live with that!

Bring it!
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby SteveInChicago » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:38 pm

Yeah, I linked to the news about SB hiring the previously sacked Avid Sibelius team and opening an office in London. Also followed David Spreadbury's posts about meetings in Hamburg etc., etc. It will be a while before we see the fruits of that, and there's no guarantee that ithey will be doing work on integrating Cubase and Score. But knowing Steinberg they are going to try.

here's the post with the url http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=181908

I predict: They will get 91.314% of the way there, and then release it to much hoopla.

Aloha Curteye, Cool that you got some stuff done in Score.

The last work I finished in Score was a lead sheets and chord charts for a teaching gig. Four charts with 3 clefs, plus play-along mp3s.

Things went smoothly.

As far as anything with more than 4 parts or so, I have been using Finale. Mainly because it's way more forgiving if I get sloppy.

I am hopeful about maybe just using Cubase in the future. One nice thing about Steinberg being involved in notation software will be to kick Make Music (Finale) in the but a bit. Finale has come a long, long way and there's a fellow (Jari) who is writing plugins with a lot of very useful stuff- some akin to what the logical editor does.

For teaching materials the Chord track sped things up a lot for me.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby SteveInChicago » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:46 pm

curteye wrote:So in a future version of Cubase I'll be back to
working with a form of Sebelius while using Cubase?
Well, they can't use any actual code from Sibelius, but they are the people who programmed and maintained it since before Avid bought it.

So at least SB has notation specialists on board, which might be something new.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby curteye » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:18 am

@ Steve. Tanx for starting this.

When I look at the number of views of this thread I am encouraged.

I was starting to believe that with the release of apps
like Loopmash and Beat Designer etc we might be seeing the end of
score notation etc in Cubase but with the view numbers being so high
I now know that many many users read and write music and
use Cubase in that process.

Add to that what has been posted about the Sebelius team
and Steiny team working together in London and the future's sooooo bright ............

my 2cents
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