Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby EdCubasero » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:49 pm

whatever, but the point is this proves is not the driver.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:55 pm

EdCubasero wrote:whatever, but the point is this proves is not the driver.


All threads like this prove Ed, is that it's the user and not Steinberg that is at fault.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby EdCubasero » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:13 pm

Damn, you are right! I was pluggin the controller to the DVD-R unit! thats why the notes were recorded earlier!

Seriously, your last post is kinda funny :)
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:33 pm

Funny if you are aligned with the Dark Side of the force maybe but showstopping for those just trying to record their MIDI performances.

The thing about this situation is Steinberg have designed something, and were anyone to read the manual on this subject they would see that it was never made to be some kind of solution for all system ills, in fact it guarantees nothing so how can Steinberg be expected to "fix" anything when the service is a best effort?

Besides, there are way better MIDI interfaces out there than what has been touted thus far, that have addressed these kinds of problems with timing and none of them are USB, except maybe one company who was able to push the envelope a little more than what was previously the case, I'll give a hint, they are the same people as those making the software, in relation to their personal (not professional) identity.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby EdCubasero » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:00 pm

I really dont see where you are going man.

When you say: "it was never made to be some kind of solution for all system ills" what do you mean? Do you mean they released a major brilliant sequencer but they didnt guarantee it could record MIDI performaces as they are if there´s something introducing latency like a VSTi? Man this is the most basic feature on a sequencer, and they cant guarantee it working on all computers? Its like I sell you a tenis racket, but its not gonna place the ball where you aim too, just a little to the left (literally). For sure you can still play tenis but i sold you a expensive, PRO racket which should just place the ball as expected, cause you´ve been playing tenis since you were 5 yold and you know exactly where to place it.

The second point is about Steinberg´s MIDI interfaces right? I´d be glad if someone having them can confirm they dont have this issue (on PC and working with VSTis).

Padawan, i am happy using cubase, i love it and i found a workaround for this thing. I am not a hater whatsoever and i dotn think i can quit using Cubasse, its now too late for me. I am just saying its really disappointing that some of us cant record MIDI correctly (is there anything more basic?) specially since the solution seems to be as easy as a checkbox on the devices setup with "delay recorded MIDI by the amount of system latency".

I dont try to disencourage anyone using Cubase, i just have my opinion on this subject and i didnt blame Steinberg service or something. They wont be fixing this and they said it on the other thread, its not that i made this up .
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Joel Eriksson » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:15 pm

******** OK!! IMPORTANT MESSAGE THAT STICKS TO THE SUBJECT HERE******

Thanks a lot Dylan btw. I saw you're message while I was writing this post
----------------------

I can see why this thing creates lots of confusion.
It seems even those in the know, get's confused, whether this is a problem or not.
Some never really bother about this even it's a true case while others do.
But we all could agree of that we don't mind if our recorded VST instrument
would sound authentic without the need of further editing, right?

This is the first time I have a complain.
First time I write on a forum too ;)

I want to believe that the number of folks that are bothered with this
should be many enough to encourage developer's to fix this. Or join this discussion.

To be clear: This is about recording VST instruments. I'm not discussing Audio or outboard
midi because I think it works perfectly.

Looking at the recorded notes and controller data in the midi editor it seems early a bit.
And that's correct in terms of that the notes and controller data actually are registered
at the same time we hit the keys or bent the wheel. We played them a bit
early - purposely, without thinking about it, because musically, we compensate for the
latency with our hands and rhythmic sense.

Now, when the sequencer plays it back - it's prepared to play it directly (ZERO ms) from the
time we hit the key, or bent the pitch, stepped the pedal, wiggled the mod.

I think it's wrong in a musical aspect.

After some posts and further readings around the web I still believe the best cure for this is that:
Midi notes and CC data should be registered by the sequencer - Later

Then we would sit back, press play and:

* Listen to the take as we recorded it.
* No need to nudge anything to make it authentic.
* Quantize function gets more reliable.

Thanks for the link to that discussion EdCubasero. I think the discussion unluckily got out of focus in that thread.
Last edited by Joel Eriksson on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Sir Dancelot » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:31 pm

EdCubasero wrote:I really dont see where you are going man.
.


Hey Ed, classical troll that Padawan. He's literally not responding to the actual subject.The way I see it, the only way to debate with an idiot is to sink to his level, and that is wasted energy. So ignore him, maybe he gets bored after a while and finds something else to do :D (wasn't there a new starwarsgame online?)

I just calculated that if I nudge every midi container .022 to the right via the info line after recording my performance locks right in. So for now I am happy.
The offset in the info line or the delay in the inspector are not much help.

So yes if Steinberg would implement a little application so that we can command Cubase to move every midi performance after a recording then all problems would be solved.

Greetz Dylan.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby EdCubasero » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:45 pm

If you have this 0.22 you can created a macro (stop + move midi 0.22) assign to a keycommand and hit that key whenever you finish recording instead of stop. I tried it on the space bar but well..it was a mess cause you are used to play STOP so many times.. :D

the problem for me is this is not a fixed value. I go for lower latencies when composing then switch to higher ones when mixing and the composition is finished. That would make this 0.22 a higher value if i want to record something on the mixing stage. So the keycommand wont be accurate at some point.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Joel Eriksson » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:54 pm

Sir Dancelot wrote:So yes if Steinberg would implement a little application so that we can command Cubase to move every midi performance after a recording then all problems would be solved.


Nah!! It should be done automatically. When do we not want it to happen?
I don't remember me ever thinking Now I want my recording to be placed a little bit earlier than I intended.
Last edited by Joel Eriksson on Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Sir Dancelot » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:56 pm

You're right, well then a button so that you can switch compensation on and off for those who don't have the problem.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Joel Eriksson » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:06 pm

EdCubasero.. That's the smoothest workaround I've heard about. :lol:

But as you say... It fails if changing the buffer size.

And.. I can't see why we even need to make those workarounds for this
to work properly.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Joel Eriksson » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:14 pm

I took away this comment - it was misleading sry...
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Arjan P » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:18 pm

If the problem is in the VSTi's inherent latencies, then I don't see how the cure can be in a button to move overall MIDI data. What if I decide to have the track played by an outboard synth after all? All notes will be early, right?
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Joel Eriksson » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

This whole thread is about VST instruments.

*** Outboard midi should not be changed! it's working good***

My standpoint is it should be handled automatically while recording VST instruments
- no buttons needed.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Sir Dancelot » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:53 pm

Arjan P wrote:If the problem is in the VSTi's inherent latencies, then I don't see how the cure can be in a button to move overall MIDI data. What if I decide to have the track played by an outboard synth after all? All notes will be early, right?


enable the compensation when you use softsynths, disable when you use outboard.
So the compensation should not be globally but trackspecific.

This is if the OP is right in his scenario ofcourse. I am still not 100 procent sure but it makes a lot of sence.

Judiging by the info I got, there is a lot going on about this issue. On te S.O.S board, gearslutz, KVR, wel almost every forum where Midi comes along.
I presume that a lot of users are accustomed to move there midi around manually to sync it with the project.
I for one stopped making beats in cycles because of this.
When it worked I looped two bars, and stacked kick, snare hihats etc. Now I do the fitst layer. Stop the sequenser, quantize or line it up and then do the next layer. It would be nice if I could just fool around with drums as I used to.

Greetz Dylan.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Sir Dancelot » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:55 pm

Joel Eriksson wrote:This whole thread is about VST instruments.

*** Outboard midi should not be changed! it's working good***

My standpoint is it should be handled automatically while recording VST instruments
- no buttons needed.


When it is consistent with the latency of softsynths...Absolutely +1

Did you send this thread to the mods? I hope they replie on this one.

Greetz Dylan.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Joel Eriksson » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:02 pm

Arjan P wrote:If the problem is in the VSTi's inherent latencies, then I don't see how the cure can be in a button to move overall MIDI data. What if I decide to have the track played by an outboard synth after all? All notes will be early, right?


You're outboard synth will play back too early if you've recorded the midi through a VST instrument with latency as it works today. That's why midi and controller data always should be moved later after recording on a VST instruments track. If this would be the case you have the best possibilities of it sounding good when switching the midi track to an outboard synth. One situation where it would seem to work better as it is today though... is if you're output latency while recording is exactly the same as the latency on the midi outboard synth.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Como Baila » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:33 pm

EdCubasero wrote:It has nothing to see with drivers, just let this go. The same controller recorded notes prefectly in time on other DAWs on the same computer. The same controller connected by MIDI and plugged to a MIDI interface with the 5-pin cable recorded early notes as well inside Cubase, so its something soft related and not dependant on drivers.

People who has this issueare having it for quite a long time (in my case, since Cubase 4 and with 2 diferent computers). The strange thing is that apparently, and at the same time unfortunately, not everybody suffers this problem. So it seems Steinberg wont fix it.


Ed,

I'm not disagreeing with you ... but let's just clarify that there are two types of midi timing problems that overlap.

One is the timing problem related to latency in which all the notes are delayed by the amount of the latency ... but other than that, are exactly as played. Shift the track and all is well. I think this is the issue the OP is addressing: why cannot this shifting be done more or less automatically if Cubase is already calculating the PDC?

The other midi timing problem, which you introduce here with the link, is inconsistency of how the notes are recording or drifting note positions within the recorded part. This is a much more serious and painful problem.

This second problem is further complicated by what can be a perceived note misalignment due to the serial nature of midi data transmission ... all note data cannot be both sent serially, or one discrete midi message at a time, and also arrive at the sound module in the same instant. Which is what happens when playing chords (polyphony). Cubase addressed this issue with its MIDEX line of midi patch bays, unfortunately no longer produced, and Linear Time Base technology.

So, for the second problem, we have two issues, forgetting latency induced delay: does the sequencer accurately record the midi input and does the sequencer accurately play back the midi data.

Presumably, someone could do the equivalent of a 'null test' by sending midi from a hardware sequencer routed through a midi splitter and then simultaneously recorded into Cubase and another purportedly better functioning DAW. Then the original midi file and the two recorded midi files could all be placed side by side in a sequencer and examined for differences. This would resolve the question of timing inaccuracies in recording.

Similarly, a standard file midi file could be loaded into Cubase and recorded into another DAW, and the same file could be rcorded from a 3rd DAW into the one used with Cubase. The files could then again be examined.

I have never taken the time to do all this because it has never been that critical to my work.

But the possibility of demonstrating the second error alleged in Cubase remains, as I've outlined above.

Como
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Arjan P » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:34 pm

Joel Eriksson wrote:
Arjan P wrote:If the problem is in the VSTi's inherent latencies, then I don't see how the cure can be in a button to move overall MIDI data. What if I decide to have the track played by an outboard synth after all? All notes will be early, right?

You're outboard synth will play back too early if you've recorded the midi through a VST instrument with latency as it works today.

That was exactly my point. What I was trying to say, actually - VST instruments should communicate with the host to make the specific delay known to it, so the cure will be in playback, not in the actual musical data.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby KDEF2004 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:04 pm

Como Baila wrote:The other midi timing problem, which you introduce here with the link, is inconsistency of how the notes are recording or drifting note positions within the recorded part. This is a much more serious and painful problem.

This second problem is further complicated by what can be a perceived note misalignment due to the serial nature of midi data transmission ... all note data cannot be both sent serially, or one discrete midi message at a time, and also arrive at the sound module in the same instant. Which is what happens when playing chords (polyphony). Cubase addressed this issue with its MIDEX line of midi patch bays, unfortunately no longer produced, and Linear Time Base technology.



Como


Amazing! This is the root of the problem... I've lived with this for many many years and revisions of cubase. Honestly, When the SX line began, that's when I noticed the feel was gone. But, in time as with other nuances, you work around them and keep it moving. But to the OP, I agree... 8-)
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Carlo » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:20 am

I think Midi is old and tired...
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:38 am

Arjan P wrote:VST instruments should communicate with the host to make the specific delay known to it, so the cure will be in playback, not in the actual musical data.


Are there any plugins at all that operate in this fashion?
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Arjan P » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:46 pm

I'm not very experienced with VST Instruments, but I know from Wavelab experience that all audio plugins take their own processing delay into account - or, more precisely, Wavelab does.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Joel Eriksson » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:09 pm

I won't comment on every post.

But I'd like to be as bold as to say,
I still believe the simple answer is
written in the first post.

Someone in this thread said this is a
lost battle and that the support team
just answer, keep the latency low.

I think they are willing to consider other
options. I bet they look to improve the
software all the time to make it more
accurate and just "keep the latency
low" - it's not as sharp as it should be.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:16 pm

Joel,

Any inaccuracy is coming from software and hardware outside of and before Cubase even knows about it, so it is impossible for the DAW to calculate anything when there is nothing to calculate against!

As Como has said already, various companies including Steinberg have at one point or other attempted to address the problem with solutions called "Linear Time Base" or Sample Accurate MIDI from Motu. Even Roland have a solution that aims to help with reproduction of polyphonic data over a serial line.

Any idea that a plug in can compensate for something it knows (and can know) nothing about and feed this information to the mix path is sorely misplaced.
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