Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Conman » Mon May 14, 2012 4:01 pm

LeVzi wrote:For the fact that the MIDI gets printed in teh clip 1/32th or whatever early, regardless of how you record it, there is no fix for that, otherwise people would use it.



Yeah. Nobody records midi. Ever! Whateverrrrr.
What's that supposed to mean exactly?
MY midi turns up where I want it and so does a few hundred thousand other users.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Sir Dancelot » Mon May 14, 2012 4:24 pm

An official statement would be very welcome right now.
I don't believe that the midi early notes are due to "timing compensation from the players hand"
I really think there is something going wrong in the chain.

Why?

1) Because if it is timing compensation then it looks that my compensation is really sample accurate consistent.
2) Not everyone is experiencing the same behaviour.
3) s.o.s. Magazine discribes this as a mailfunction with certain drivers etc.

So can Steinberg shed a light on this please?

Dylan.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby SteadyEddie » Mon May 14, 2012 4:41 pm

LeVzi wrote:For the fact that the MIDI gets printed in teh clip 1/32th or whatever early, regardless of how you record it, there is no fix for that, otherwise people would use it.


Well, I am taking the plunge to upgrade my Presonus Firepod to RME Fireface 800. I am hoping that the RME DirectMusic MIDI drivers will tighten up the placement of the MIDI notes.

My suggestion to all is to understand how your MIDI note placement behaves using the simple keyplunk test. If the MIDI note is in sync to the keyplunk audio, then you can eliminate that variable.

This thread is assuming there is no issue with the proper MIDI placement. Note that in the screenshot example, his keyplunk and MIDI are in proper sync. The thread OP wants the MIDI note that was properly placed to be adjusted to account for the VSTi latency.

Dylan, have you tried the keyplunk test? Is the audio and MIDI in sync for you? My MIDI is actually late by around 10 msec. For some MIDI drivers, I believe the opposite could be true and you get early MIDI.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Mon May 14, 2012 5:08 pm

LeVzi wrote:For the fact that the MIDI gets printed in teh clip 1/32th or whatever early, regardless of how you record it, there is no fix for that, otherwise people would use it.


Yes there is, I have that issue with my kit if I don't configure Cubase correctly. Manifests itself mostly with USB connected kit. Takes two seconds to fix it for good without using the lame workarounds listed in this thread. ;)
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Mon May 14, 2012 5:14 pm

Sir Dancelot wrote:An official statement would be very welcome right now.
I don't believe that the midi early notes are due to "timing compensation from the players hand"
I really think there is something going wrong in the chain.

Why?

1) Because if it is timing compensation then it looks that my compensation is really sample accurate consistent.
2) Not everyone is experiencing the same behaviour.
3) s.o.s. Magazine discribes this as a mailfunction with certain drivers etc.

So can Steinberg shed a light on this please?

Dylan.


You make me laugh. You've been told over and over it's an issue with your setup. Steinberg has stated this over and over and provided the fixes for it yet you still demand an official word on an un-official support forum. If you want an official word, Steiny has stated over and over to submit a support ticket. You fail to do even that.

You mopes need to read this;

Yer Mom III wrote:I'll show you how much I understand. There are three main issues with Cubase and MIDI;

1. When recording MIDI, it either doesn't record, records intermittantly or stacks all the notes at beat 1.

2. When recording MIDI, it sounds in sync while recording but after you hit stop all the MIDI data is shifted early on the grid, result being no sync.

3. When recording MIDI through a VSTi and recording the resulting audio live, in real time, the audio records later than the MIDI which is correct on the grid.

There are different settings to cure all of these. They've been covered multiple times both here and on the old forum. I know, I've answered a majority of the questions.

I've tried helping you mopes by telling you it's been covered on the forums, in the KB and in the manual, but because I don't spoon-feed you like mommy does, you get *quiz* at me. Get off your lazy a s s e s and find the answers for yourself. There's no bug with Cubase, only between your ears and theres plenty of space for 'em too.


You clowns don't even realize you're all talking about different issues. The OP states Audio is ahead of MIDI and you stated MIDI is early. There are simple fixes for all of these issues if you'd bother to do some reasearch. And no, Timestamp isn't a cure-all, especially for the issues stated above.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby LeVzi » Mon May 14, 2012 5:25 pm

Conman wrote:
LeVzi wrote:For the fact that the MIDI gets printed in teh clip 1/32th or whatever early, regardless of how you record it, there is no fix for that, otherwise people would use it.



Yeah. Nobody records midi. Ever! Whateverrrrr.
What's that supposed to mean exactly?
MY midi turns up where I want it and so does a few hundred thousand other users.


And for quite a few of us it doesn't, so if it does for you, excellent, so why you even making comments regarding it ?
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby LeVzi » Mon May 14, 2012 5:26 pm

Yer Mom III wrote:
LeVzi wrote:For the fact that the MIDI gets printed in teh clip 1/32th or whatever early, regardless of how you record it, there is no fix for that, otherwise people would use it.


Yes there is, I have that issue with my kit if I don't configure Cubase correctly. Manifests itself mostly with USB connected kit. Takes two seconds to fix it for good without using the lame workarounds listed in this thread. ;)


So what is the solution ?
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Mon May 14, 2012 5:31 pm

LeVzi wrote:
Yer Mom III wrote:
LeVzi wrote:For the fact that the MIDI gets printed in teh clip 1/32th or whatever early, regardless of how you record it, there is no fix for that, otherwise people would use it.


Yes there is, I have that issue with my kit if I don't configure Cubase correctly. Manifests itself mostly with USB connected kit. Takes two seconds to fix it for good without using the lame workarounds listed in this thread. ;)


So what is the solution ?


Like I said, it's in the manual, KB and all over the forums. I'll give you a hint, it's NOT Sys Timestamp. ;)
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Conman » Mon May 14, 2012 5:35 pm

Sir Dancelot wrote:An official statement would be very welcome right now.
I don't believe that the midi early notes are due to "timing compensation from the players hand"
I really think there is something going wrong in the chain.

Why?

1) Because if it is timing compensation then it looks that my compensation is really sample accurate consistent.
2) Not everyone is experiencing the same behaviour.
3) s.o.s. Magazine discribes this as a mailfunction with certain drivers etc.

So can Steinberg shed a light on this please?

Dylan.


Nearly 20 pages and if they haven't by now it's unlikely you'll be regarded as an important person enough to answer.

"A malfunction with certain drivers" is an issue for the writers of the soundcard software.
"Not everyone is experiencing the same behaviour" points to errors at the user end, not necessarily the user so don't get upset.
"Because if it is timing compensation then it looks that my compensation is really sample accurate consistent." Confusion, typo or sarcasm? I can't make that one out.

If desperate and serious about confirmation then contact support. If you think it's REALLY serious write a letter.
But on any forum it's really USELESS to make demands like this.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Conman » Mon May 14, 2012 5:46 pm

LeVzi wrote:
Conman wrote:
LeVzi wrote:For the fact that the MIDI gets printed in teh clip 1/32th or whatever early, regardless of how you record it, there is no fix for that, otherwise people would use it.



Yeah. Nobody records midi. Ever! Whateverrrrr.
What's that supposed to mean exactly?
MY midi turns up where I want it and so does a few hundred thousand other users.


And for quite a few of us it doesn't, so if it does for you, excellent, so why you even making comments regarding it ?


Quite a few. Half a dozen? A dozen?
I made comment because it made it seem like the problem was everywhere and it isn't.
"Otherwise people would use it..." implies that NOBODY uses it. And it is not a FACT for EVERYBODY to get midi 1/32nd out.
We don't want to misinform everybody now do we?

This is getting funnier than a houseful of father Dougals. :mrgreen:
Now who's father Jack and who's father Ted? :mrgreen:

Anone want any tea?

Aw! Gowaan!
Last edited by Conman on Mon May 14, 2012 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby LeVzi » Mon May 14, 2012 6:04 pm

Conman wrote:Quite a few. Half a dozen? A dozen?
I made comment because it made it seem like the problem was everywhere and it isn't.
"Otherwise people would use it..." implies that NOBODY uses it. And it is not a FACT for EVERYBODY to get midi 1/32nd out.
We don't want to misinform everybody now do we?

This is getting funnier than a houseful of father Dougals. :mrgreen:
Now who's father Jack and who's father Ted? :mrgreen:


Actually I said "There is no fix for that, or people would use it" meaning if there was a fix for the problem then hey, I guess the people with the fix would use it. But there is no working fix, we've been over this. When MIDI gets recorded early for regardless of how many of us, we are looking for a solution.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Conman » Mon May 14, 2012 6:14 pm

Makes even less sense but hey, benefit of doubt and language differences. At first it looked like you were looking for a solution but now it seems you just want attention from "official" sources.

And a "midi timing suggestion" seems to have turned into a complaint by people who have hijacked this "suggestion" thread from the now defunct (I wonder why) "Early midi..etc" thread.

If you can't even complain in the right thread who in their right mind is going to take you seriously?
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Mon May 14, 2012 6:38 pm

LeVzi wrote:Well, I am taking the plunge to upgrade my Presonus Firepod to RME Fireface 800. I am hoping that the RME DirectMusic MIDI drivers will tighten up the placement of the MIDI notes.

Take note of this.
Just a heads up ;)
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Shinta215 » Mon May 14, 2012 7:19 pm

niles wrote:Yes indeed, because of that I used a preset too.
I did not managed to use the Transformer for this, because I thought the transformer processed its rules after the MIDI was parsed. Are you actually saying you managed to use the Transformer to parse the notes a little later in realtime without affecting the audio output?

In other words, you won't get this when you use the transformer?
Key stroke -> normal latency -> added latency (by tranformer)

That would be fantastic, what rules did you use?


Sorry, should have been more clear.
What I posted was a theory, one not backed by actual testing.
I haven't tried the method.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby beerbong » Mon May 14, 2012 8:48 pm

niles wrote:
LeVzi wrote:Well, I am taking the plunge to upgrade my Presonus Firepod to RME Fireface 800. I am hoping that the RME DirectMusic MIDI drivers will tighten up the placement of the MIDI notes.

Take note of this.
Just a heads up ;)

I guess we should start getting prepared for Linux based DAW's then? All they would need is a DAW that could run VST's and have 'hardware-like' midi sequencing... I'd be happy then...
BB
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby LeVzi » Tue May 15, 2012 1:30 am

Conman wrote:Makes even less sense but hey, benefit of doubt and language differences. At first it looked like you were looking for a solution but now it seems you just want attention from "official" sources.

And a "midi timing suggestion" seems to have turned into a complaint by people who have hijacked this "suggestion" thread from the now defunct (I wonder why) "Early midi..etc" thread.

If you can't even complain in the right thread who in their right mind is going to take you seriously?


Not at all, I already have official attention, I am just awaiting ideas or workarounds from people in the similar boat.

I'm not, however, waiting for your next comment regarding something that doesn't even concern you !
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Tue May 15, 2012 1:58 am

Shinta215 wrote:Sorry, should have been more clear.
What I posted was a theory, one not backed by actual testing.
I haven't tried the method.

Ah okay, no problem. I've checked it and the "position" command doesn't seem to do anything when you use the transformer as an insert on a MIDI track.

Another very simple, non destructive method to trick your mind is:
Create a second output channel (next to your master) and call it something like "Undelayed".

Now put the "MixerDelay" VST on your master and fill in the amount of latency your system reports (for instance 13.06ms).

Before you start to record your VSTi of choice reroute the output of that VSTi' to the "Undelayed" master output.
When your finished with your musical masterpiece, route it back to the master.
At the end, when the project is finished remove the "MixerDelay" from the master.

That way you can play your VSTi pretty tight, even when you have a latency of 13.06ms.

(The same method can be used with group channels of course).

It would be even cooler if you could send all the armed tracks to a specific Studio, Monitor, Phones channel or master output. That way you don't have to think about it 8-)
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby creartistic » Wed May 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Dear fellow musicians,

please forgive me if I ask this again, because I haven't read all 467 posts (there are too many that are imo off-topic), just the first two and the last page, but:
What's the solution to this problem? I find it would be handy for other people experiencing the same issue if the solution would be summarized on the last page of the thread and not somewhere in between.

1. I'm experiencing the problem with different master keyboards AND different MIDI-interfaces (USB connection as well as using the MIDI input from my RME Babyface). That's why I do not think that it's an USB Midi Driver issue.
2. I'm also having my notes appr. 1/64 to 1/32 early (at 120 bpm), but shifting entire tracks or recordings manually or automatically (which some of you demanded) wouldn't improve this because the "negative latency" isn't constant, that is some notes are coming earlier than others. Meaning: even if early latency was neutralized, my guess is, there'd still be a timing issue here.

Please advise!
Thanks in advance.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Conman » Wed May 16, 2012 8:12 pm

I'm afraid the thread did not start out as an "early midi" issue. Totally different problem.
It would be best to start a new thread. There is another but they seemingly abandoned it for this one and it's some pages down the line.
I fear it's not a soundcard issue but maybe a midi / usb chip issue but the jury is still out as not everyone has the problem.
If you do start a new thread give your system specs as it helps with diagnosis. If you do you will be one of the sensible few.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Sir Dancelot » Wed May 16, 2012 8:23 pm

Hello creartistic!

With me it seems that the 'negative latency'is constant.
This makes it all very difficult to diagnose. There are so many scenario's at the moment.

This thread is about a constant 'negative latency' and there is a lot of debate about why.
Could your playing be the reason why it's not constant or are your notes drifting apart, that you hear a completely different timing?

Regards Dylan
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby creartistic » Wed May 16, 2012 9:00 pm

Thanks, I think I'll start a new thread.
And yes, I'm pretty sure it's not my playing. I'm used to playing very exact, and while I'm not as exact as J.S. Bach himself, I certainly don't hit notes 1/64 to 1/32 too early. That makes a range of appr. 1/64 up and down, I don't think that's me.
Anyway - thanks for getting clear on me on the topic. I didn't realize this thread was not about that issue.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby Guest » Thu May 17, 2012 2:58 am

creartistic wrote:Thanks, I think I'll start a new thread.
And yes, I'm pretty sure it's not my playing. I'm used to playing very exact, and while I'm not as exact as J.S. Bach himself, I certainly don't hit notes 1/64 to 1/32 too early. That makes a range of appr. 1/64 up and down, I don't think that's me.
Anyway - thanks for getting clear on me on the topic. I didn't realize this thread was not about that issue.


Easily fixed.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby jbgarren » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:38 pm

Hi,

I just registered to the forum so that I could comment on this issue, as I believe it accurately describes the problem I have been working around for the last few months since getting Cubase 7.

Description of my system/issue - I run Cubase 7 on a 6-core 2011-2012 Mac Pro (OS 10.8.5) and use Vienna Ensemble Pro networked from a PC to host most of my virtual instruments. My current interface is a PreSonus Firestudio mobile.

Example of the issue in practice - I have a single staccato line quantized to each half note and the metronome playing so I can VERY clearly follow the rhythm for testing purposes. On a new track, I record arm and watch the timeline as I play exactly in time with the staccato and the metronome. Everything sounds correct while recording, but watching the grid as I play, the notes themselves are placed just shy of a 16th ahead in time of what I am hearing, and on playback they now sound early.

I have tinkered with buffer size, ASIO-Guard, Adjust for Record Latency, Delay Compensation, and every other timing setting I can find but cannot resolve the issue. I have also verified that it is not an issue related to VE-Pro - the behavior appears even on standard instrument tracks. The issue is more global than that, like the playback head/cursor itself is displaying behind the actual audio. The issue remains even at lower buffer sizes. I compared notes with a colleague running a very similar setup on a Mac but uses a Steinberg MR816X Firewire Interface - he doesn't seem to have the issue, leaving my best guess to be that this is somehow hardware/clocking related?

I apologize for posting to what seems to be an already saturated thread topic, but wanted to contribute my observations since my problem seemed to align with the original issue of the thread.
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Re: Midi timing suggestion on recorded VST instruments.

Postby OldFecker » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:07 pm

See also this uber-thread

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17949
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