We want the buttons back!

Post general topics related to Nuendo 6 here.

Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby jimmikles » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:44 pm

So... I came here hoping to find out if I could separate the meters from the control room, too much switching back and forth to do a simple monitor switch, but let me say that after one film mix in v6.0.5 it's back to v5.6 for me. As much as I like the new limiters and expanded eq, I dislike the interface more, with the Control Room being the most frustrating of all. I simply can not trade the loss of session efficiency for a few new features. I will continue to check back with each new update, but my confidence in the product is slipping.

To sum it up:
1. Bring back the old control room interface or something similar.
2. Separate the meters from the control room, they are not mutually exclusive.
3. Give us a simplified mixer display, eliminate the racks. I don't want a whole monitor just for my mixer.

And the wish list that has existed since version 1 (I've been a user since version 1) seems to never be addressed.
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby fenderchris » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:38 pm

+1 on the buttons.

I will be very surprised if anything major changes in N6, but by the time N7 comes around Steinberg will probably realize that they will need to do something to stop non-Nuage users from jumping ship.

I hope I'm wrong and the necessary changes are made in N6. In the meantime I'm staying with N5.5.6 and SB get no more money from me.
Last edited by fenderchris on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby mrtomcat » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:56 pm

+1

for me as well.

I started using PT11 more and more and once UA finally releases their AAX plugins I will switch completely unless N6
becomes usable again.
The Mixer is driving me crazy, too much detective work when we should be focusing on mixing
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Breeze » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:25 am

I find it interesting that the name "Yamaha" hasn't come up in this thread. If only Yamaha wasn't the taskmaster here...

Count me in as having put N6 on the shelf till things change for the better. I'm glad that people have gotten over the novelty of the new mixer and are seeing it for what it has been tailored for.

It's pretty clear that what IS needed is a bifurcation in the code: Nuendo + NEK + NUEK (NUage Expander Kit). If you don't need NUEK you don't pay for it. And the rest of us get a mixer we can handle comfortably with a mouse, keyboard, and the usual cast of remote devices. Not that I liked the NEK idea at all, but if they're going to start splitting up feature sets, adaption to specific hardware would seem like an important addon that only people with the hardware should pay for. Unless, of course, there are ulterior plans for this strategy (Nuage Micro? Nuage LE? Nuage Cloudbank™?...)

I really am hoping for the best, but somehow I don't believe a software split in the codebase will come to pass. Historically, Yamaha has been a very stubborn independently-minded company. For now Steinberg still seems in charge of their software development (thank goodness) but it does seem that they are being pushed in a direction they themselves may feel somewhat apprehensive about.

This certainly would explain the silence we are hearing so clearly...
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby fenderchris » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:52 am

Breeze wrote:I find it interesting that the name "Yamaha" hasn't come up in this thread. If only Yamaha wasn't the taskmaster here...

Count me in as having put N6 on the shelf till things change for the better. I'm glad that people have gotten over the novelty of the new mixer and are seeing it for what it has been tailored for.

It's pretty clear that what IS needed is a bifurcation in the code: Nuendo + NEK + NUEK (NUage Expander Kit). If you don't need NUEK you don't pay for it. And the rest of us get a mixer we can handle comfortably with a mouse, keyboard, and the usual cast of remote devices. Not that I liked the NEK idea at all, but if they're going to start splitting up feature sets, adaption to specific hardware would seem like an important addon that only people with the hardware should pay for. Unless, of course, there are ulterior plans for this strategy (Nuage Micro? Nuage LE? Nuage Cloudbank™?...)

I really am hoping for the best, but somehow I don't believe a software split in the codebase will come to pass. Historically, Yamaha has been a very stubborn independently-minded company. For now Steinberg still seems in charge of their software development (thank goodness) but it does seem that they are being pushed in a direction they themselves may feel somewhat apprehensive about.

This certainly would explain the silence we are hearing so clearly...


Very well put.

This is all very worrying (particularly as there seems to be little or no comment from Steinberg).

What are the alternatives? - Should I be looking at ProTools as a replacement ?

I've been with Steinberg since the very early Pro-24 days and always automatically updated with each new release, until now. I've already decided not to buy any more Steinberg hardware since the MR816 direct-monitoring debacle (I originally bought six of them when they were first released as I believed that coming from the same manufacturer as Nuendo the integration would be perfect!), and at the moment can't quite bring myself to upgrade from Wavelab-6 to Wavelab-8 even though it does come with a user manual, unlike Wavelab-7.
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Big K » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:45 am

Same her: I used Steinberg Cubase from its MIDI seq days and have bought SB software like V.Guitarist/Bassist, Surround Bundle, Mastering Bundle,... and Dolby Decoder... a.s.f.
All gone for good...
Also, WL 7 is hardly being used here due to its weird structure. So WL 8 upgrade ist out...
And now, Nuendo 6 and the usual Head in the sand tactics from SB... Will Nuendo stop here for me, too?
This is the best way to loose a lot of trusted Customers.

An answer like: you old B'stard will get used to it... it stays as it is.. would at least show us the
respect of an answer on this Button/ Mixer / CR desaster.
In essence: quite a few Nuendees will look for alternatives...and there are a some.
Even cheaper ones....
SB this is no behaviour! Stand by to your work or admit mistakes. Don't be such Weicheier!

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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby JoDell19 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:35 pm

I just opened N5 again. Wow! It felt so much like home, I had to apologize for ever leaving her for N6. Lol. It was really nice to be able to see my mixer. If you haven't tried it, you should. You may find yourself, like me, putting N6 back in the janitor's closet.
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Breeze » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:51 pm

Big K wrote:SB this is no behaviour! Stand by to your work or admit mistakes. Don't be such Weicheier!

Not that I know one way or the other, but if I'm right then it's not a matter of courage, it's a matter of survival. Employees generally don't talk badly about their bosses in public, particularly if they plan on keeping their jobs.
- "Yamaha Corporation, how may I direct your call?"
> I'd like to talk to someone in your Steinberg software division.
- [Pause] "I'm sorry, there's no one here called "Steinberg". Is there someone else you'd like to talk to?"
> No, I'm not looking for someone called "Steinberg", I'm looking for the division of the Yamaha Corporation that is administered under the name "Steinberg", the people who make Cubase and Nu....
- "Just a moment please..."
[...retro cool jazz plays...voice over:] "Our latest cutting edge music software development package, Cubase 7, offers you the latest in forward thinking workflow and project organization for your most demanding audio projects. And every busy post-production professional must experience our new Nuendo 6 and accompanying Nuage control and automation system designed for quick and efficient work on the largest post-production proj...
- "Yamaha Corporation, how may I direct your call?"
...
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Big K » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:23 am

Sure, employees are generally not entitled to render any statements about or on behalf of their
companies unless authorized.

Well then, Steinbergers, look out a lucky wiener to post an official statement.


JoDell19:
I just opened N5 again. Wow! It felt so much like home, I had to apologize for ever leaving her for N6. Lol. It was really nice to be able to see my mixer. If you haven't tried it, you should. You may find yourself, like me, putting N6 back in the janitor's closet.


+1 ... My thoughts exactly...

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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Domilik » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:37 pm

+ 1

Did a first long film mix in nuendo 6, the people next to me started laughing when I was searching for the right mouse-over-areas everywhere...

I'm back in PT and N5 now, the only thing I miss there compared to N6 is the loudness-track. That is a great tool.
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Rotund » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:10 pm

+1 here.

Also, we need a button to open all plugin interfaces at once per channel.

Double clicking on the insert space provided results in sometimes bypassing the plugin, sometimes opening the preset browser, and sometimes nothing happens at all, because the plugin was already open behind other windows and then it closes (wrong behavior), so it seems like nothing happens. (Which doubles the amount of clicks needed.)

It shouldn't be this hard or time consuming to open the plugins on a channel.

So that's +1 for the

Plugin On/Off button
Plugin Bypass button
Plugin Edit Button
FX - Pre-Post Fader Button
and
Open all plugins loaded on a track button.
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby marciojhs » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:30 am

I'm not a "update/upgrade now" guy. Since steinberg announce and release Nuendo 6, and after i read about the changes in this version, i wanted to see the opinions before i made the upgrade.
I'm a nuendo user since the first version. And, for the first time, after to many years, i don't want to make the upgrade... My clients like me and my studio because of my speed and efficiency in my work. Thats why they chose me, not other studios. I have my studio full until the end of the year, and i don't need to waste time, and make fool of myself in front of my clients, searching for the button, or the menu or whatever.
Sometimes developers forget some simple laws for people that have a studio!

FIRST OF ALL, We don't need stupid updates and upgrades. We need a DAW, first of all that works stable. It's horrible to have errors, crashes, restarts in front of clients. They are there to record, not to see your computer crash.
And off course. If i'm recording a live gig, i need a DAW that records the gig... I can't stop a live show because my DAW decided to crash because the update, function, driver *flower* or whatever...

SECOND, some of us started to work on a analog mixer. And what an analog mixer have on a strip channel?
Gain, Phase, phantom (not needed on a DAW, of course), hi pass, low pass, insert On/off and pre or post Eq bottons. Next - 4 band - Eq - Highs ( Q, gain and frequency), High Mid ( Q, gain and frequency), low mid ( Q, gain and frequency) and Low ( Q, gain and frequency). more Bands are allways welcome. Next - Sends - For any send we need gain, PRE and POST fader botton and On/ Off button. Then Fader, On/off, mute, solo, etc... It is basic right?? Don't mess around with the basics! Keep it simple. We don't buy DAWs or mixing desks because of the lights or for it's beauty... We buy it, first off all, because it works.

THIRD, On a studio session, we start miking the band, setting the monitoring, then making gains for recording and at the say time do what a monitor engineer do on stage. Making a mix that the musician feels good and comfortable.
A musician won't be able to make is best performance if is isn't comfortable. The control room was a very well thinking idea, but sometimes we need to mix more than 4 musicians on a studio, you know?... This is a professional DAW, remember? Not a "4 member garageband" DAW...
So, alot of us use Gui interfaces, and one of the best things that live digital mixers have, is an option call "sends on fader". The main control room window have all the options that i need but the mixer don't needed that crap "send for monitoring"... I need to push a botton that says " drummer", or " bass player" or whatever, and the faders that i use for mixing, could be used for monitoring. Have you tried mixing, the limited 4 member band, with the mouse with that crappie "send"???... Individual Pan and stereo or mono mix option, absolutely necessary! Good call.

FOURTH If you make an update to make my DAW faster, make it easier to work, more stable, more options that make my work sound better, something that help me being faster, make me good figure in front of my cliente, etc.. Great, they are welcome! PLease, just don't make a new release to make me feel like a stupid in front of a client, like making me use a stupid "search box", or use the F1 botton, or searching for a button that you decided to change from is normal place. To my clients "this is not possible" phrase it's not an option. This could be be for you too. And off course:...

Pre-post fader send is ESSENTIAL... Being able to bypass, turn of a plugin is ESSENTIAL.

Thank You

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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby jansmoczynski » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:54 pm

+ 1
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby etl17 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:07 pm

An official word from Steinberg would be nice at this point......
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby iFX Productions » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:44 pm

+1 You have my vote for sure!
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby ltf3 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:33 pm

Nuendo carries with it a pretty hefty surcharge for its pro features and designation. I agree with the sentiment here, but it seems the answer is 'user configuration options'. I've always thought we should get a little more for the extra up front cost ... Surely creating a comfortable custom, GUI environment isn't un reasonable? AFter all ,everyone's pro workflow is going to be different .... Different on every job if you ask me!

If Nuendo 6 has been built to accommodate the Nuage ... Then that's a problem for almost every user who isn't ever going to use one. Most of us I suspect...
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Fredo » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:48 pm

ltf3 wrote:If Nuendo 6 has been built to accommodate the Nuage ... Then...

Nuage uses it's own specific mixer views.
So although the Mixer redesign was somewhat needed for Nuage, the Nuendo Mixer layout has no relation to it.

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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Lydiot » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:45 pm

f
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Big K » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:57 pm

So, all this was done to us without any factual constraints?
Just a brain-child of somebody who thought it might be a good idea to design it this way?
Prost-Mahlzeit... Thanks a lot! Is the Hanseatic fish market closed?
However, it hit the wrong nervs at my bottom...

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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby StudioRay » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:00 pm

Fredo wrote:Nuage uses it's own specific mixer views.
So although the Mixer redesign was somewhat needed for Nuage, the Nuendo Mixer layout has no relation to it.

Fredo


Well then, this tells us that there is no hindrance to having some of the things we're missing put back.

Thank you for finally clearing that up! And although I appreciate the input, like many others here, I really would like to hear some more from Steinberg about these changes and whether some of our concerns about previously available but now missing accessibility/functionality will be addressed.

Kind regards,
Ray
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby driskel » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:34 pm

After spending some time on N6, I agree with the request of this thread.

I do like a lot of the new features of N6, but I want a mixer that is clear in use and in feedback.

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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby fenderchris » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:10 pm

marciojhs wrote:
On a studio session, we start miking the band, setting the monitoring, then making gains for recording and at the say time do what a monitor engineer do on stage. Making a mix that the musician feels good and comfortable.
A musician won't be able to make is best performance if is isn't comfortable. The control room was a very well thinking idea, but sometimes we need to mix more than 4 musicians on a studio, you know?... This is a professional DAW, remember? Not a "4 member garageband" DAW...


I've been saying this for a long time - 4 Studio Sends is just not enough for a professional DAW. As there are 8 Inserts and 8 Sends available in Nuendo, it should be possible to develop a system where 8 Studio Sends can also be provided within the same Rack design space. I have no idea why Steinberg completely ignore all suggestions to increase the number of Studio Sends available.
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Lydiot » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:21 pm

Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote:Nuage probably doesn't communicate with Nuendo using key commands.


That is correct. The integration is much beeper than through KC's.
The old fashioned KC's can be used together with the Nuage functionalities, so both are still there.


So why would any component of the Nuendo GUI require reprogramming to make Nuage work?

Because there are a lot of extra functions and/or some things might have had the need for a redesign to make them work for both (Nuage & standalone).


"might"? Why would you first say that "although the Mixer redesign was somewhat needed for Nuage, the Nuendo Mixer layout has no relation to it." only to now seemingly taking that back?

When I use a control surface it usually has two things: It has a physical controller (knob, fader or button) and some text describing what it does with few exceptions. So if I want to control, say, which monitor source I'll be using, I'll be looking at my control surface, find the group of buttons that control Control Room, read the text beneath the buttons, find the right one and push it, right? What does that have to do with tabs in the Nuendo CR GUI? Does the Nuendo mixer redesign for Nuage necessitate tabs in CR? Why does Nuage's knob require Nuendo's CR to use a slider???

Fredo wrote:
And the GUI and clicking is what people dislike, not necessarily primarily the functionality of the mixer.


There are a couple of things most of you seem to forget. The old mixer was becoming a PITA on some screen resolutions, so the resizing is not a fancy iPad-like gimmick. Since screen resolutions are very different from one system to another, and since there are more and more things that need to be displayed in the mixer (and we haven't seen the end of this), they needed to find a way to squeeze all that information within a concept that worked for each specific configuration. And that is not an easy task.


Fair enough. A solution needed to be found. I'm certainly not arguing that all of the GUI is undesirable. I can absolutely see a need for a tweak of the GUI to account for current and upcoming features. However, and for example, in relationship to what you just pointed out, why would the edit window need the design it did? It fits well within most resolutions simply because it's a lot smaller than the mixer as a whole. Just look at the comparisons posted by another poster between new and old and it simply seems weird to cut information/setup options out of the edit window rather than retain them and add more to it.

Fredo wrote:To be clear, I don't think anyone doubts that there is room for imporvements, but saying that the basic concept is a big mistake is simply not correct.


You do this from time to time when you're talking to me for some reason. I did NOT say the basic concept of the mixer is a "big mistake", so don't go imply that I did. It's annoying.

Fredo wrote:Everyone concentrates on the bits and parts he/she uses the most, and when you isolate these, then indeed the "old" way worked better. But when you keep on piling up stuff, there comes a moment when you *need* to rearrange in order to keep the overview.


Yes, in principle the above would be correct. The question is what happens when most users seem to be "concentrating on" pretty much the same bits? Because it seems to me that most of the criticism ends up being about roughly the same handful of things missing, not a big "pile" of things.

It's quite telling that Steinberg remains silent and you only respond to general commentary. Take for example using the near universal symbol for on/off two different ways; in one place it's actually on/off of a plugin, and in another it's bypass. You were free to comment on that as was SB. Neither did. That has nothing to do with the screen real estate or resizing, just crappy design (because it's inconsistent).

If you and Steinberg are right, then why not communicate the ideas to us so we understand why there's a reason for all the tabbing in the CR, for now being required to select a mixer section before using key commands (garbage), for symbols to use inconsistent fonts and be used inconsistently, etc.

Fredo wrote:Anyone who wants to continue the general mixer GUI discussion, please continue in another thread.
Do not answer or discuss this any further here, unless it is related to Nuage.

Fredo


I'll just note that you have absolutely no problem with people talking about the mixer GUI in that other Nuage thread as long as they are making positive comments about it (e.g. csd), or as long as it's you yourself commenting about it. Forgive me for saying that I find that line of moderation is unimpressive.
Please PM for conversation.
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Fredo » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:52 pm

I'm not going into politics, neither will I try answering the specific questions for what reason this- or that has been done/changed/redesigned. Simply because I don't know all the answers myself and because one can't give a yes/no answer to most of the questions. I don't believe for a second that the developers "just did something" without thinking about the consequences. It simply *is not* as simple as an "outsider" thinks it is. And I think that is also the reason why you don't see any participation from the Steinberg people.

Fredo
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Re: We want the buttons back!

Postby Lydiot » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:13 pm

Fredo wrote:I'm not going into politics, neither will I try answering the specific questions for what reason this- or that has been done/changed/redesigned. Simply because I don't know all the answers myself and because one can't give a yes/no answer to most of the questions. I don't believe for a second that the developers "just did something" without thinking about the consequences. It simply *is not* as simple as an "outsider" thinks it is. And I think that is also the reason why you don't see any participation from the Steinberg people.

Fredo


I find it curious that you have absolutely no problem stating things as fact or 'most likely' or whatever, but whenever someone questions that you reply with something like the above. In other words when you make a claim it's sort of 'ok', when the rest of us do or question yours it's time to "not going into politics" or "not try to answer specific questions" etc.

A very convenient way of discussing things, particularly as a moderator.
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