Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

General discussions on songwriting, mixing, music business and other music related topics.

Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby MrSoundman » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:03 am

I seem to remember somewhere between SX3 and some version of C4 there was a flurry of the usual nonsense on this very forum about how "dark" the product had become. It was around the time everyone was changing from older CRT monitors to newer LCD/LED flatscreens, and those with the newer monitors had no problems; clearly, the developers are working with cutting-edge quality and the rest of use are expected to follow.

Even if we all have reasonably good monitors in the meantime, any photographer will tell you that we're a long way away from anything like neutral color representation. In addition, almost all monitors have some means of adjustment and I would ask whether users have ever even investigated what's available in the setup/options menu of their monitor?

Another major factor is ambient light ... if someone is working in a dedicated studio area, the likelihood is that thought has been given to the fact that almost all audio recording today utilizes some form of LCD monitor and it is unlikely that people are working with a fluorescent tube overhead, or with sunlight streaming through a window behind them.

My opinion is that, yes, the Cubase GUI has become darker over time, but with a decent and properly calibrated monitor running at native resolution, I really don't see any problem; and, my overall preference would be something like the color scheme of Cubase 5 (with a few personal tweaks).
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby suntower » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:29 am

He's commenting on an overall trend in music software (or should I say more -Euro- design.) Frankly, I think it's about 10 years behind the times and is strongly influenced by Gamer culture. (Can you say 'Matrix'?)

But if you look at where the -design- community is at, the trend has been towards lighter and brighter... Apple, Microsoft, Google... the trend is uniformly in those directions and -away- from 'gun metal' and 'imitating a real mixer'. And not just because it's the trend du jour. Countless studies have shown that lighter, simpler interfaces are (surprise!) EASIER TO READ and MORE SELF-EVIDENT.

So, since yer so opinionated, who makes a good UI, JC?

This guy makes -great- UIs: http://www.valhalladsp.com/

And... lest we forget. I still say, Cubase SX and SX2 were much more readable.

http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/aug02 ... ound.l.gif

http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/nov03 ... ject.l.jpg

---JC



silhouette wrote:Given that Paul White is a Logic user it does not follow that he is talking about Cubase.
My issue is about the size of the text in much of new software given that most people have their monitors a little way back.
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby henceforth » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:31 am

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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby henceforth » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:56 am

Bredo wrote:There's a reason I stay on Cubase 6.5 and Nuendo 5.5, FOR NOW.


From my reading of your posts, it seems Cubase (7) and probably onwards will never suit your needs, so is it not an appropriate question to ask?

Who are you again?


I don't know if it really matters being an international forum and all and besides if you really want to know who I am, why not write me a PM?

What's the misery in using Cubase 6.5 and Nuendo 5.5?


The misery seems to be all yours, but please in your collaboration, please do not preach to users about how they should feel about change.
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby henceforth » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:21 am

Bredo wrote:We both have the right to tell what we "feel" about change, don't we?


We do but it was you who said you were going to take time out from using Cubase 7 in the first place due to the downsizing of your music recording studio and that you'd be contributing more towards development of Nuendo in the future.
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby henceforth » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:24 am

Bredo wrote:After 14 years as a user of Cubase and Nuendo (since SX1 and N2), I'm in no doubt that Cubase 6.5 and Nuendo 5.5 are the best DAW's out there.


God morgen.

I am in no doubt either that 6.5.5 is an excellent, properly supported DAW, that will work well into the future on Windows systems (up to 7 at least) but what I can't work out though, is if you are feeling disenfranchised by having purchased the software in the first place.
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby MrSoundman » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:01 am

:?: ... mmm ....some kind of territorial marking going on here so I'm gone ... bye bye!
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby henceforth » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:48 am

Bredo wrote:I bought the Cubase 7 upgrade at release out of curiosity, and as an educational investment.


But if you don't like the "direction" the software is taking as you have previously indicated, then why bother to learn about it at all?
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby Alazarin » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:05 pm

Overall I'm quite pleased with Cubase 7 but I find myself agreeing with the 'too dark' gripe: I tend to get persistent afterimages in my eyes when reading light text on a dark background and I've noticed the same issue, although not quite as pronounced, with Cubase 7
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby OldFecker » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:48 pm

What a lot of hot air and ego-puffing in this thread.

We are all individual people, with individual requirements.

Instead of adopting the policy of "one size must fit all", SB should provide more controls for the user to customize the display elements to their liking. What's so difficult to understand about that?
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby Hedshaker » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:24 pm

OldFecker wrote:What a lot of hot air and ego-puffing in this thread.

We are all individual people, with individual requirements.

Instead of adopting the policy of "one size must fit all", SB should provide more controls for the user to customize the display elements to their liking. What's so difficult to understand about that?


You mean like skins, perhaps? Reaper leads the way in that respect, though I'm not overly fond of it myself.
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby G-string » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:52 pm

Hedshaker wrote:
OldFecker wrote:What a lot of hot air and ego-puffing in this thread.

We are all individual people, with individual requirements.

Instead of adopting the policy of "one size must fit all", SB should provide more controls for the user to customize the display elements to their liking. What's so difficult to understand about that?


You mean like skins, perhaps? Reaper leads the way in that respect, though I'm not overly fond of it myself.


codswollop .
oldfecker is right ,we all have our own individual needs ........... if you like reaper hedshaker you know what to do cause I for one don't want Cubase to turn into anything like reaper !
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby cubic13 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:17 pm

G-string wrote:codswollop .
oldfecker is right ,we all have our own individual needs ........... if you like reaper hedshaker you know what to do cause I for one don't want Cubase to turn into anything like reaper !


I don't want it either but, from Cubase 6.5 to 7, we have lost :

- the normal and efficient cursor for a horrible white masked one, which requires me to wear glasses to view it clearly,
- all the settings in the preferences 'Appearance / Work area' page which has completely disappeared : no more display tweaking of the three different levels of vetical grid lines, as well as the horizontal ones, among others,
- all the settings of the 'Appearance / General' one : no more tweaking of the display of some UI components, especially the buttons. You have to open the defaults.xml, find the related line and manually edit it.
- the normal behavior of the R/W buttons of the group/FX tracks which no longer behave as the other ones when narrowing them,
- the normal background of the overview line, which has become plain white, no matter the color settings you do beside this.

This without talking about other previous regressions, such as the imposed '3D/shady' events/parts display, the removal of the transparent events, the oversized info line with its brand new font...

So, as you said, we all have our own individual needs, but I don't think that Cubase 5.1.1 had anything to do with Reaper and there has been regression after regression since, and in an imposed manner. IMO, new versions are supposed to bring more features and customization, not removals of what was existing, useful and perfectly working. And I still think that there must be a middle way between Reaper skinning and all the recent Cubase feature losts...
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby G-string » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:27 pm

cubic13 wrote:
G-string wrote:codswollop .
oldfecker is right ,we all have our own individual needs ........... if you like reaper hedshaker you know what to do cause I for one don't want Cubase to turn into anything like reaper !


I don't want it either but, from Cubase 6.5 to 7, we have lost :

- the normal and efficient cursor for a white masked one, which requires me to wear glasses to view it clearly,
- all the settings in the preferences 'Appearance / Work area' page which has completely disappeared : no more display tweaking of the three different levels of vetical grid lines, as well as the horizontal ones, among others,
- all the settings of the 'Appearance / General' one : no more tweaking of the display of some UI components, especially the buttons. You have to open the defaults.xml, find the related line for it and manually edit it.
- the normal behavior of the R/W buttons of the group/FX tracks which no longer behave as the other ones when narrowing them,
- the normal background of the overview line, which has become white, no matter the color settings you do beside this.

This without talking about other previous regressions, such as the imposed '3D/shady' events/parts display, the removal of the transparent events, the oversized info line with its brand new font...

So, as you said, we all have our own individual needs, but I don't think that Cubase 5.1.1 had anything to do with Reaper and there has been regression after regression since, and in an imposed manner. Still think that there must be a middle way between Reaper skinning and all the recent Cubase tweaking losts...


cubic , if new reasons were being mentioned then there would be something to write about but surely you all must be getting bored with writing the same old complaints over and over again , no new issues just the same old complaints that have been mentioned at least 100 times .
Im happy with c7 , it does what I need it to.
All these posts of the same old things are in my eyes getting rather boring as in the great immortal words of pink Floyd your "running over the same old ground " .
If your not happy with the route Steinberg are trying to take then there are other softwares because now Steinberg are a part of Yamaha I don't think you and another couple of hundred people complaining are going to make the damn slightest difference . NOW THAT IS THE DOWN SIDE of Steinberg - Yamaha and when the integration happened in 2006 I held my head in my hands knowing it was going downhill but im still here for the ride but when it doesn't suit me any more im not going to moan till im blue in the face to a major corporation i'll just spend my money else where .
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby cubic13 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:44 pm

G-string wrote:cubic , if new reasons were being mentioned then there would be something to write about but surely you all must be getting bored with writing the same old complaints over and over again , no new issues just the same old complaints that have been mentioned at least 100 times .
Im happy with c7 , it does what I need it to.
All these posts of the same old things are in my eyes getting rather boring as in the great immortal words of pink Floyd your "running over the same old ground " .
If your not happy with the route Steinberg are trying to take then there are other softwares because now Steinberg are a part of Yamaha I don't think you and another couple of hundred people complaining are going to make the damn slightest difference . NOW THAT IS THE DOWN SIDE of Steinberg - Yamaha and when the integration happened in 2006 I held my head in my hands knowing it was going downhill but im still here for the ride but when it doesn't suit me any more im not going to moan till im blue in the face to a major corporation i'll just spend my money else where .


Congrats for your musical reference... But if it's so boring, don't feel the need to react. I feel the right to complain about the way things evolve simply because it doesn't suits me and I'm a regular user of Steiny products. If nobody ever complain, there would have even been more issues and regressions, since. No matter what you say but there have been several examples in the past where Steiny changed things again after several complaints here, in a more positive way : to just name a recent one, remember the mixConsole settings and .vmx files ?

So, I'll continue to moan, having paid 150€ for an upgrade that I don't use : admit that the situation is rather unsatisfying. But, indeed, lesson taken : I will probably end here any Cubase paid upgrade in the future, unless there are really good surprises and/or fixes in them.
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby G-string » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:57 pm

Cubic it's you right and choice to do as you please im only trying to raise the point that these problems have been mentioned time and time again . The vmx files as you quite rightly stated were re-implemented as you say but that was because of lots of complaints from lots of different users and not just a few complaining over and over.

As we said earlier we all want individual things and Steinberg has the hard job of implementing for the masses .. anyway it's Saturday night ,clock go back tomorrow , don't forget about the rescan and I hope you get what your asking for but IMHO cubase is better than ever .

good luck on your quest ;)
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby cubic13 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:13 pm

I admit that I'm feeling rather lonely when complaining about all the UI regressions but, sincerely, these are the main reason why I don't use C7. Alone, the white masked cursor is for me a showstopper : I simply can't use it without glasses and don't want to have to wear glasses while being for several hours working with Cubase and all my musical stuff.

So, moaning again and again is the only solution left for me to say to Steiny : 'Hey, buddy, did you think of all the 53 years old farts who no longer have the eyes that they had twenty years ago ? Please think about it a little further...'. I already tried a PM to Christian Dettner, feature requests, several threads and posts, to a point where I can indeed feel boring. Simply, the UI regressions that I'm experiencing, as a whole, prevents me to use C7 and I DO want to use it. It's not a stubborn attitude, it's coming from my experience of C7 against previous versions and what I'm fearing the most is that they could be here to stay.

But who knows ? maybe someone in the product planning department will finally reconsider some of the things I stated, again : so, I don't give up...

No harm done, G-string, and all the best... ;)
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby bonso » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:03 am

don't feel lonely!
The masked cursor is possibly the worst thing about the UI changes in Cubase 7. (and seemingly so simple to fix!)
It looks bad and ,more importantly, its appearance actually impacts on its functionality.
I often work with my snap set to 'beat' and find myself questioning whether I'm correctly aligned to the first beat of a bar (etc.) due mainly to the masked cursor. I might often have to zoom in further to be sure. (this wasn't the case in previous versions.)

So yeah, I think it's fair to comment that this is an actual regression, rather than a new feature one must just get used to.

Slightly more on topic : I'd agree that some more customisation options would be nice.
Personally I don't mind the darker default look, but I would like if there was more consistency between the look of the arrange page and the mixconsole.(but that's probably a discussion for a different topic lol)
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby henceforth » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:27 am

bonso wrote:The masked cursor is possibly the worst thing about the UI changes in Cubase 7 (and seemingly so simple to fix!). It looks bad and more importantly, it's appearance actually impacts on it's functionality.


I personally like it but of course a preference would suit both camps.
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby bonso » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:53 am

fair enough.
single (white) line cursor with customisable width would be my preference
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby henceforth » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:27 am

bonso wrote:single (white) line cursor with customisable width would be my preference


The old (v6) cursor was a single black line I believe.
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby Elektrobolt » Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:02 am

Isn't the current trend of dark screens also a result of trying to save battery life on portable devices?
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby mozizo » Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:48 pm

Elektrobolt wrote:Isn't the current trend of dark screens also a result of trying to save battery life on portable devices?

Maybe.. i personally not against the dark GUI but the poor contrast of elements and text and numbers values in MC and some areas in Editors(,like midi controller lane text is hard to read cuz its gray on gray thing in key editor for example )
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby Tp3 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:51 pm

mozizo wrote:Maybe.. i personally am not against the dark GUI

Well, I am.

Is cool to look at ? sure

Can a job be done with it ? hardly. as Paul White said :

"The official reasoning seems to be that darker screens are more restful on the eyes, which is why much of the text has been changed from simple black or white to various shades of grey.
If restful means 'increases the urge to fall asleep because your visual cortex is overheating', then they may well be right, but it's not especially useful if you actually need to get any work done.

And I say : !!!!!

At least steinberg should supply us with the opportunity to go back to Cubase 6 mode, color wise.

At least.
(that is : ONE click, and ALL colors shift to those that one can find on Cubase 6's default state)

I've given up hope that the mix debacle would get any better, ie. look much more like a normal mixer and not like a cartoon.
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Re: Sound On Sound says it all: Too Dark

Postby mozizo » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:07 pm

i said im not against it in general... i dont like it that much either,, i think steiny should give an option of more color settings in MC. i dont like the GUI design as it looks toysh to me and for some others users to, i hope they improve it. but workflow and usability wise regarding colors whats not helping me most is the lack of contrast.
(other hidden info and hidden buttons etc,, is another topic)
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