If it was your money?

General discussions on songwriting, mixing, music business and other music related topics.

Re: If it was your money?

Postby Freddie H » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:56 pm

jb+ wrote:.


PS: Does anyone know about building computers ( i mean getting a tech at a computer store to assemble the
parts you want ).......Seems to me this could be less or more expensive---but instead of wandering from
store to store disappointed by " this one has this, but that one has that " and worrying about a trivial $100 or two
....you get to call the shots about each important specification....and get something really designed for audio purposes.

Instead of a desk top that is powerful, but powerful for Gaming.....Gentlemen, let's not play games here---better to operate a computer designed for music

Thanks to Everyone

.


I build my computer myself and managing the systems. You get much better performance and DAW computer and you can specific quality components into your setup. You need still to know "what" quality component to add into the setup.
Also you need still have a lot of "knowhow", how to do it so its not for everyone especially the novice user or if you have no experience with electro engineering.

I would recommend you have someone that guide you "how to do it safe" the first time. Also read up and check a lot of videos on Internet before you decide to build yourself. ;)

Its important you don't touch specific parts with your fingers. Otherwise you can basically destroy the electro components and everything, ending up to being a costly experiment instead.


Use high-quality antistatic gloves all the time especially working around with the CPU, memory, motherboard and cards.. ;)

Take your time "months" and gather so much info before you begin order component and building the computer. :)
To make a great DAW computer I recommends these high-quality component manufactories.



ASUS motherboard and NVIDIA graphics cards.

http://www.asus.com/


INTEL, I7 CPU
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/homepage.html


Memory
http://www.corsair.com/


CPU Water cooling

http://www.corsair.com/en/cpu-cooling-k ... ooler.html


POWER PSU 600W -1000W
http://www.seasonicusa.com/index.html
http://www.seasonicusa.com/NEW_X-series ... 60-850.htm


Full Tower Case- Cooler Master or Fractal Design
http://www.fractal-design.com/
http://www.coolermaster.com/


SSD--only one INTEL..forget the rest
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/homepage.html


Graphic card chip- NVIDIA
http://www.nvidia.com/content/global/global.php


Fans 12mm 14mm
http://www.fractal-design.com/


Conventional harddrives
Seagate, Western Digital, SAMSUNG
http://www.seagate.com/
http://www.wdc.com/en/



OS- Windows 7 -Ultimate x64 or Windows 8.1 x64

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx


Screens Monitors - 27# or up. SAMSUNG, NEC (BenQ - budget)
http://www.samsung.com/us/

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Freddie
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Strophoid » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:26 pm

Yes, a ur28 works fine as a soundcard for media playback, games etc. The only thing to note is that consumer grade speakers (including surround) use different connectors, so you can't always use those on your ur28 interface. But if you have monitors already then I don't see why you'd want consumer grade speakers connected, unless its for surround sound in movies. That would still be possible as long as your surround speakers have individual analog inputs.

However, most motherboards come with a simple onboard soundcard that you can also use for these tasks if necessary, you can switch soundcards very easily in windows. Note how this onboard soundcard would not perform well in your daw, because of the low quality input and terrible latency.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Mr M » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:48 pm

jb+ wrote:.



Thanks Strophoid

That's Good News---but i don't understand it yet. I absolutely don't need a sound card with UR28M you say---great!
i'll deduct it from the cost of the computer---better computer, no sound card...

Can UR28M fill all functions including normal computer stuff?.....Doesn't a PC have uses of the sound card that can't be provided by an outboard device like the UR28M? Or does it somehow rely on a PC/interface flow with no problems?
Is there a latency issue?

How much extra $$$ do i have to gain by building a computer with only UR28M---no other sound card, eh?

john

PS: Does anyone know about building computers ( i mean getting a tech at a computer store to assemble the
parts you want ).......Seems to me this could be less or more expensive---but instead of wandering from
store to store disappointed by " this one has this, but that one has that " and worrying about a trivial $100 or two
....you get to call the shots about each important specification....and get something really designed for audio purposes.

Instead of a desk top that is powerful, but powerful for Gaming.....Gentlemen, let's not play games here---better to operate a computer designed for music

Thanks to Everyone





.



.


A custom built will yield the most power money can buy, no doubt. However as you're beginning the process of home studio creativity, and learning which daw,which software etc. adding on the PC building component would be foolish.There is more to know and learn when it comes to PC building than anything else. Your best bet would be to buy a custom music PC from a reliable maker. In a couple of years when you're ready to move up to a more powerful PC ,then you might look at building your own.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby curteye » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:38 pm

Mr M wrote:A custom built will yield the most power money can buy, no doubt. However as you're beginning the process of home studio creativity, and learning which daw,which software etc. adding on the PC building component would be foolish.There is more to know and learn when it comes to PC building than anything else. Your best bet would be to buy a custom music PC from a reliable maker. In a couple of years when you're ready to move up to a more powerful PC ,then you might look at building your own.


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Re: If it was your money?

Postby twilightsong » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:08 am

You said:

Ambitions for the music are high. I want songs to "translate to any speaker" of course!!!
....So i need "flat response".....yeah! i think flat response is the best we can do---call it honesty, eh?


So I say:

Room treatment -- $500. You can do a lot of DIY with $500. My room has good absorption and control of bass and I did it for about $500, building traps and panels myself

Monitors, preferably non-ported (don't go overboard) -- $1,000. My monitors are the ONE piece of gear that have outlived all the others

a good microphone -- $500

I thought it was interesting how one guy said "room treatment at this budget is absurd," and then suggested asking your question over at gearslutz... if "room treatment" isn't the most oft-cited suggestion over there, then ignore ANYTHING I have to say, EVER
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Mr M » Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:16 pm

twilightsong wrote:You said:

Ambitions for the music are high. I want songs to "translate to any speaker" of course!!!
....So i need "flat response".....yeah! i think flat response is the best we can do---call it honesty, eh?


So I say:

Room treatment -- $500. You can do a lot of DIY with $500. My room has good absorption and control of bass and I did it for about $500, building traps and panels myself

Monitors, preferably non-ported (don't go overboard) -- $1,000. My monitors are the ONE piece of gear that have outlived all the others

a good microphone -- $500

I thought it was interesting how one guy said "room treatment at this budget is absurd," and then suggested asking your question over at gearslutz... if "room treatment" isn't the most oft-cited suggestion over there, then ignore ANYTHING I have to say, EVER


Well, I'm the "one guy" who said room treatment is absurd in a budget of $2500 and I stand by that. As out lined above ,the OP would spend $2000 of a $2500 budget and not have a single thing with which to make music except the guitar he already had. He's just starting out doing home recording and left with $500 for computer, software,interfaces.

Regarding Gearslutz,I recommend this forum to poster or anywhere that gets more traffic than this forum in order to get more varied input. Of course room treatment is bandied about a lot there. Its also oft mentioned in Sound On Sound (world greatest recording mag). Its the new holy grail for some folks, a must have without which you'd better not even try to make music. Room treatment is an important component but nowhere near as important as JUST GETTING STARTED.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:44 pm

.



I had a debate with myself last night---OMNISPHERE or KOMPLETE 9 ?

It came down to " Omnisphere has some high praise but Komplete 9 has survived in the community."

Is this how to make this decision ?.......because there are a lot of unknowns...

j




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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Mr M » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:42 pm

Both great product but you should go with Komplete 9. Omnisphere is basically a very wide ranging synth. Komplete is a diverse group of sound makers and effects that could be all you need for awhile to come. Also Native Instruments will hit you up with offers and deals several times a year that will get you add ons for cheap.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Freddie H » Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:28 pm

As Mr M said everything are great value.


Omnisphere - Worlds best software synth

http://www.spectrasonics.net/index.php

If looking for working machine, a "synth" a fantastic synth/psychic-acoustic sampler and much more into one software. It will be Omnisphere -no doubt

Look; check this video and you get the idea what we talking about here.
Try to do "that" with ordinary software's.. ;)
http://player.vimeo.com/video/20020519? ... autoplay=0



Native instrument Komplete is great deal.- You get a lot of everything.

http://www.native-instruments.com/en/

Great tools like Kontakt 5, Massive, Reaktor 5, FM8, Absynth 5, Guitar Rig 5 if going to use electric guitars. And Guitar Rig 5 is more then just a AMP-simulator. Its effect machine. NI included "SoftTube"-software's sounds great too.

Don't get me wrong I use all of them but if I only can choose two NI software's it would be Kontakt 5 and Massive.


All my sessions start with Kontakt 5 and Omnisphere. Both are essential! I couldn't dream not to use them.. :)


PS...But read here to understand what I mean------------>
viewtopic.php?f=198&p=306812#p307126

Best Regards
Freddie
Last edited by Freddie H on Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Strophoid » Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:54 pm

Yet I don't own either and I enjoy myself ;)
I'm sure they're great products, but you don't NEED them. Get an instrument (software or hardware) and learn to play it untill you know exactly what it can and can't do, and only then buy something else that complements what you already have. That's my advice ;)
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Freddie H » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:53 pm

jb+ wrote:.



I had a debate with myself last night---OMNISPHERE or KOMPLETE 9 ?

It came down to " Omnisphere has some high praise but Komplete 9 has survived in the community."

Is this how to make this decision ?.......because there are a lot of unknowns...

j




.



Hi John!
I see this getting more and more confusing. Perhaps its better that I perhaps explain myself little further.



This will be the best advice you gonna get! :)
If you are newbie or just starting out, has no or very little experience, Rookie with DAW, software's, hardware Synths, mixing, audio engineering etc.. my first recommendations still stand:

DON'T BUY ANYTHING!!! SAVE your money!

Use and learn the things you already got. Cubase comes already with many Synths, compressor, FXs and EQ learn them first before you even consider buy anything. In a couple of years you can consider buy other things. Hey, even Cubase 7 is even to advance for a rookie if you ask me. ;)







But if you ask my professional thoughts of the Top-Professional products like NI or Spectrasonics, sure, hell yeah great products. :D

---------------------> But NI, Spectrasonics, Waves, Soft Tube, Nomad factory, Melodyne etc.. all this software's are aim for the Professional or Semi-Professional users or those that have the vast experience already. Not newbie or rookie.

I'm not saying you need to be brain surgery to use them but you need to know synths and programing's, filters, and basic fundamentals and understanding and have the experience "how" to program, produce and mixing to benefit from those products.


Its like a newbie that haven't drive or have a "drivers-licenses" to drive.
You don't start by putting them in a sport car like a Ferrari, do you?

Same with this. ;)


Conclusions. Don't buy anything, save your money, use what you have already and learn that!


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Freddie
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Elektrobolt » Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:22 pm

jb+ wrote:I'm told that THE CARS mixed their tunes precisely to be listened to by teenagers driving around doing x......

What's said, and what is, are often very different. If not, what works for some, does not work for all.

The point is, if it was my money, I would do as much research as I possibly could. Work through the list, one item at the time. Read reviews, do comparisons of what is available, at what cost, and which have features that satisfies My needs, and get what fits Me best.

What really matters, is to choose that which will enhance Your situation the most.

An example... for ME, and this will work for some, I use Cubase with a CC121, an MR816 and a Midex8. It works great for me, but there are some people in the forum that has problems with one or more of these items. Now, what may not be apparent from my example "advice", is that I have a Midex8 which implies MIDI gear. Well, loads of it. In fact, so much that I am limiting myself to a relatively small set of VST instruments (at the moment), which may be one reason why I don't have the problems that others are experiencing. The point here is that people will give advice and forget a lot of surrounding arguments, or think that "this" or "that" is the answer within their setup. Which is not necessarily true. Oh, I use the VST instrument HALion 5 quite a bit. So I may be Steinberg biased (I've been using Cubase since before it was named Cubase even) and I am perhaps missing out on some rather exciting stuff, I wouldn't know what (since I am not in the market to buy), but what I have works really good for ME, and Steinberg do make awesomeness!

Unfortunately for you, market people are pretty slippery (in class with lawyers). Promises of more gold, greener grass and all that. There are a lot of knowledgeable users out here in the forums, but it's hard to pick them out among the other grazing animals. So again, I think you need to take the time to research and hang around places to see what attracts your senses. IMHO, you need to take that time, if you want the most out of your money.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:47 pm

.




$1,200 for the computer ?

Or $1,400......it's the heart of the beast

Still with the budget.....CUSTOMIZE THE COMPUTER !!!!

These few specs would make me satisfied about computer power:

If i can get double hard drive, 2 X 1T....RAM 16GB or more....intel i7 quad core......for $1,400

I'm thinking of a electronic computer shops that specialize in custom PC design, take pride in good service and price...maybe it would be cheaper 'cause we're not asking for bells and whistles, just power....durability

Otherwise, i'll be adapting a GAMER PC for the purpose of Cubase !!

Ain't that a shame ?

john











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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Strophoid » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:26 pm

I would advice against buying a gamer pc, because a lot of money would go in the graphics card which is of no use to Cubase.

Another important point is noise, a low end graphics card can be had with passive cooling which means one less fan in your case.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby twilightsong » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:30 am

I went back and read the OP again. I must have missed where he's starting completely from scratch. I apologize for that , especially to Mahogany. So, he has a guitar, and nothing else, and M says he needs to get started, which of course is correct.

There are a number of ways to go, but overall I think they break down into two rough categories:

1. buy a retinue of budget-priced gear so you can cover as many bases as possible from the outset

-- OR --

2. start with two or three moderately-to-high priced pieces of gear, and then build from there over time.

Both are valid approaches, and both obviously have their benefits and disadvantages. Of course, you need a computer in order to do DAW work, but I don't think you need to spend anywhere near $1200. I would buy a case, motherboard-with-ram-and-CPU combo, and a hard drive -- budget it at $500. This way, you're positioned to upgrade CPU etc as time goes on, without having to buy an whole new computer.

Next, you need some sort of input/output device. It sounds like you're going to be tracking yourself, so all you need for now is a stereo unit. Most of these anymore come with Lite versions of one of the popular DAW's -- some of those are more than capable to do multi-track recording... plus, given that they are essentially teasers to get you to upgrade to the full versions, you'll always have that option if you need more features than the Lite versions provide. There are numerous interfaces in the $150-200 that have specs that are superior (at least on paper) than many of the vintage analog classics from yesteryear!

Of course, you need a microphone. The market is FAT with decent large-diaphragm-condensors in the $500 area; in fact, some of the ones in the $300 range, like that Baby Bottle, are superb mics.

Monitors. I wouldn't go cheap here (but I wouldn't go high-end, either). My gut tells me $800 is the number --

You mentioned a weighted controller. In my opinion, all the ones under $1000 suck -- either the action is "blocky" or "spongy." So... I would look for a good used one, maybe not on eBay, but Guitar Center. GC has a 30-day return policy on used if it should not be what you're looking for. Budget: around $500

Now we move to the what's inside the DAW. I notice you didn't mention any drum software. Don't you need drums? Myself, I use BFD2, and I have all the add-ons... so I have like 70 snares I can chose from. However, some of the Toontracks drum modules sound pretty good (personally, I HATE Stephen Slate). Not sure what to advise, but I want to say $300 will get you started with a pretty good palate of drum sounds.

You asked the question Omnisphere or Komplete. I have both, but if I had to chose... man, that's a hard one! I guess I'd go with Komplete, since it's got your basic stuff covered. $500

Dude... you really should put up some room treatment. I'm a bit stunned that a man as experienced as M says it's largely unnecessary. AT LEAST buy one of those wrap-around thingy's that prevent reflections from coming back into the mic (actually, they don't do that, but). For about $300 and a bit of work, you could assemble some very effective bass and early reflections treatment. There are a lot of sites that will sell you the DIY stuff... I use ATS. I would avoid the popular Owens-Corning stuff, and use the cotton baffling stuff (that's what I used). I built some really awesome bass traps for about $50 each, as well as a bunch of absorption panels, using the cotton baffling, frames made of 4x1" pine (of varying lengths), and overwrapped with cheap but cool-looking cloths -- note: DO NOT USE BURLAP!!! It stinks, and it is a *witch* to work with.

http://www.atsacoustics.com/

Lastly, I would buy a reverb plug-in. The stock Cubase verbs are okay, but for $200 you can buy one that will take your music to another level. I use Breverb. $200

(you could also pick up a dedicated EQ and compression plug; personally, I think the stock Cubase ones are okay)



TO SUM UP:

Computer (case, motherboard, drive): $500
Audio interface: $200
Decent condensor: $300
monitors: $800
used weighted controller: $500
drum software: $300
NI Komplete: $500
Room treatment: $300
Reverb plug-in: $200

TOTAL: $3600

Which of course is a bit over your budget. So, I would cut in the following areas:

used monitors (Guitar Center has TONS for sale): $500
drum software: one or two of the EZ Drummer modules: $100
skip the reverb plug for now

Savings: $700

So, we're STILL high by $300. Myself, I would just settle for a cheaper controller; I would never skimp on room treatment
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby BriHar » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:46 am

twilightsong wrote:DO NOT USE BURLAP!!! It stinks, and it is a *witch* to work with.

Nothing wrong with Burlap if you get quality material it should be odourless, I use dyed burlap which I treat with a fire retardant. The open weave breathability and neutrality of its fibers make it ideal for use in studios.
$300 is rather modest for treatment costs IMO but if you just need a few absorber panels and will DIY, not unthinkable (I have a few thousand invested in sound treatment - but a purpose built Project studio is not everyones goal ;) )

Apart from the burlap comment your advice is sage, and on the money so to say :D
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby twilightsong » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:29 pm

BriHar wrote:
twilightsong wrote:DO NOT USE BURLAP!!! It stinks, and it is a *witch* to work with.

Nothing wrong with Burlap if you get quality material it should be odourless, I use dyed burlap which I treat with a fire retardant. The open weave breathability and neutrality of its fibers make it ideal for use in studios.
$300 is rather modest for treatment costs IMO but if you just need a few absorber panels and will DIY, not unthinkable (I have a few thousand invested in sound treatment - but a purpose built Project studio is not everyones goal ;) )

Apart from the burlap comment your advice is sage, and on the money so to say :D


The breathability is it's chief benefit, true. The ATS place I use sells better quality burlap that doesn't smell; the fabric shop I bought mine from only had one choice and boy did it STINK!

You got me thinking about one thing, BriHar: maybe the low-ball $300 suggestion is bad advice. I found that once I started down the road of effective room treatment, I really needed to follow it to the end, to where I had achieved consistent and even results. In may case, I spent quite a bit more than $500, and I still have some work to do. However, some think it's superfluous altogether, so what do I know :lol:
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby JSW » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:47 pm

It's important to buy the burlap BEFORE the potatoes have been shipped in it. :mrgreen: I've have a bolt of the stuff here in an off white, it looks and smell great, priced right too.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:33 pm

.





As far as sound containment is concerned i am very, very, very interested in recording a treatable lead vocal......very, very interested in recording a treatable acoustic guitar......and very interested in "everything else" but maybe not so much......My room is my living space: a small cubicle bachelor pad....with a door to the bathroom and a hallway leading to the exit door---it's claustrophobic down there, tight.....i will burlap that
space to hell to get my dry vocal sound---( i can't let ambiance dictate the vocal art---vocals being number one in
any " song "....and the treatment of the vocal is part of the vocalist's signature) .....and to get a dry acoustic guitar sound---number one also, eh ?.....what else is there for me?...nothing, it's all into the interface or
controller from here.......

Oh! will it be so bad to mix down with Monitors in a mostly untreated room?......Maybe i'm wrong---one has to be a failure in some way....besides, i'll use a variety of sources for playback, each one of the valid in the world of people listening to music.....

So yeah, people who walk into my room will instantly find themselves in a vocal booth.......and a potato festival.





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Re: If it was your money?

Postby krudler » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:39 pm

"Oh! will it be so bad to mix down with Monitors in a mostly untreated room?......"


Well, yes. Although like everything else it's a matter of degree - mixing down with monitors in a MOSTLY untreated room will be slightly better than mixing down with monitors in a COMPLETELY untreated room, and so on. It's all a matter of how much money and time (eg, learning about it) you want to put into it.

It is however true that if you spend $1000 on fancy monitors and set them up in an space that is completely or largely untreated, you are wasting money. You would probably get the same result with $400 monitors and then be able to buy yourself a fancy soft synth. This is just the way it works. There is nothing WRONG with not being able to completely treat your recording/mixing space the way a professional setup would be. That's where most people are at - it is just financially or physically impossible. It is important however to understand the tradeoffs involved and plan appropriately - eg, spending $1000 is not likely going to "make up" for having a largely imperfect space. You might better spend some of the money elsewhere in that case (eg, mics, instruments, software, etc).
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby BriHar » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:14 am

jb+ wrote:.....i will burlap that
space to hell to get my dry vocal sound...

Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, Burlap is not a treatment but rather just a covering over the treatment. Typically this will consist of a rigid fiberglass panel 80 - 100 mm thick usually afixed to a wooden frame and then covered in a breatheable fabric - typically burlap.
See the panels and "clouds" in Twighlights Studio photos. viewtopic.php?f=209&t=47223#p291003
In my case the walls themselves are filled with fiberglass and rockwool and covered in dyed burlap (yes the walls are soft).
...yes I think it can be easily done, just take everything down to Highway 61.

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Re: If it was your money?

Postby JSW » Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:02 pm

+1

My DIY panels are frames filled with rockwood/OC703 , wrapped with black weed barrier cloth (very cheap, porous for sound, yet holds all the dust associated with the rockwool/OC703, this may be overkill, but gives piece of mind), then cosmetically fronted with frames of stretched Burlap...the burlap could be replaced with lots of different fabric. The burlap gave me a neutral look at an agreeable cost.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:38 pm

.



OMG this is serious---thanks to posters......by peer pressure alone i'm forced to rethink this...

I have a high ceiling....i notice a lot of hard wall in between how high it is and how high i can
reach---that is, how high i can post chord charts and lyrics and drawings....it's like a square hat going 'round the room: 3 feet of free cement wall, then the ceiling......so i'll put horizontal bass traps everywhere up there !!!!!!!
....the entire ceiling will be bordered by BIG bass traps !!!!.....that should cut into the ambiance---dry
like a martini....But seriously, i think this is a good opportunity for sound control in my room....good idea?

As for the walls....do sheets upon sheets of paper make a difference ? I reason that the space in between the
wall and all the papers posted on it might do some absorbing of sound, catch some reflections---true?.....the walls are everywhere covered in paper.

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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Strophoid » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:41 pm

I am no expert on accoustic treatment, but I doubt wallpaper does much for your sound. If it absorbs anything it'll be high frequencies only and not by much.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:28 am

.

What about wall-ceiling traps ???

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