If it was your money?

General discussions on songwriting, mixing, music business and other music related topics.

Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:57 pm

.

Sorry about my above post: It's too urgent.....I was just excited about the new idea: wall/ceiling bass traps...
is it a forgotten space ?

.......Apart from that, thanks to the forum for education....

It's actually a bonus that there is more to learn...

newbie, eh ?


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Re: If it was your money?

Postby krudler » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:32 pm

No worries, at least you've got the fire.

Does your space happen to be carpeted? Beacuse if it's not I can guarantee you are going to get some echo echo echo...so think about that too too too too too lol.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:33 pm

.



Yeaaaaaah Man, lol....hey?...are we at the Grand canyon? Hello?....yes, and a very hard carpet at that
---but lots of litter on it.

The craftsman who did the ceiling, however, did those curlicues with the plaster---it nothing, but
what can you do about the ceiling?...i'm willing to attack that huge surface---but what would stick ?
.......seriously, isn't the ceiling the worst reflector ?



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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:38 pm

hey man, 7.5 just came out....
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Woodcrest Studio » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:51 pm

jb+ wrote:.



Yeaaaaaah Man, lol....hey?...are we at the Grand canyon? Hello?....yes, and a very hard carpet at that
---but lots of litter on it.

The craftsman who did the ceiling, however, did those curlicues with the plaster---it nothing, but
what can you do about the ceiling?...i'm willing to attack that huge surface---but what would stick ?
.......seriously, isn't the ceiling the worst reflector ?



.


Clouds on "allthread". Easy DIY if you can source 703 ridgid fiberglass.
http://woodcreststudio.com/cloud.html
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:28 am

Gotta make a sound
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:29 am

eh ?
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby BriHar » Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:58 pm

High ceilings are good! Carpets generally are not!
First you have to set out your goals. Soundproofing (preferably referred to as isolation) is extremely expensive and requires great deals of Mass and airtight sealing, and is thus usually out of the question for most except professionals with large budgets.

Most require only room treatment, as for many, the room in question is simply being adapted and very often is also a bedroom, rather than being built for purpose.
Decide too what your purpose is, the requirements for a recording studio are much different than a control room or mixing studio. For many of us we need to do all of the above in a single room - a so called Project Studio - in which case you may run accross the term "live end dead end" among others.

The answer to your question regarding paper is no - similarly forget any notions you may have heard regarding egg cartons!

There are numerous types of treatment from absorbers through traps and resonaters to diffusors. The absorber treatment is usually the most common. Being the cheapest and easiest to build, they are ideal for those on a restricted budget. Absorber panels when hung horizontally from the coeling are called clouds. The diffusor category should only be considered if you have a large space at your disposal.

First thing to do is make a ground plan of the room with accurate measurements, and then use one of the many room mode calculators to give you an idea of the frequencies that are going to be problematic and where. The plan may also help in working out reflection vectors.

Next decide upon orientation. Usually you'll want the audio firing down the length of the room as opposed to across the width. Decide upon your Listening position and test this position with your ears or using a room profiling software (I recommend REW as it's very effective, and FREE http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/)
and then consider the best position for your treatments.

For information and examples etc. visit John L. Sayers Forum http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php and also Gearslutz http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/, also check out the articles on http://realtraps.com/ and http://gikacoustics.com/.
...yes I think it can be easily done, just take everything down to Highway 61.

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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:03 pm

.


Hello BriHar

Thanks for more good news---are we saying not to treat the ceiling ? Yes, this ceiling is high--it would please
me to look up and say " You're doing your job ".....without clouds

You got me: I was going to mention egg cartons next !!!

Room sound is a topic i hadn't considered....but, thanks to a poster early in this thread, the topic is now: What
can i do with the small cubicle i live in ?.....a good challenge

Your post had a funny aspect:

"...Most require only room treatment, as for many, the room in question is simply being adapted and very often is also a bedroom, rather than being built for purpose. Decide too what your purpose is, the requirements for a recording studio are much different than a control room or mixing studio. For many of us we need to do all of the above in a single room - a so called Project Studio - in which case you may run across the term "live end dead end" among others. "


Is a bedroom not built for a purpose ???? Mine is a home, eh ??? My indoor life is all in here......I do everything
in it......It's small---Maybe that is a bonus.......i can't say there is any inherent echo at all.....but then, when
i sing, i must admit, i know ( eyes closed ) where i am.....one just has to be sonically observant---no doubt an
acquired skill i'll be acquiring more of.......yeah, all purpose bedroom, eh ?

Thanks again for the wisdom BriHar---the high ceiling is ok right ?

Now it's time to check out those links you cited.....

jb+



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Re: If it was your money?

Postby BriHar » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:44 pm

Yes of course a bedroom is built for the purpose of being a bedroom. My point was that most nonprofessional musicians, engineers, producers etc. do not or cannot afford the luxury of having a room specifically designed and treated for acoustics, therefore have to make do with what they have.

A high ceiling as I mentioned is usually good, and if you have a carpeted floor, then a reflective i.e. untreated ceiling may be ok - at least for a recording point of view - a mixing area may still want clouds. Typically a (recording) studio will have a treated ceiling and a reflective floor simply because the distance between your ears and the floor is a reference constant for your brain, whereas ceilings can vary in height. Check out some of the resources I mentioned if you want to get deeper into this.
Only by acoustically testing the room can you be sure of it's qualities.
Try this simple experiment. Generate (Cubase signal generator is ok) a single sine frequency (say something between 150Hz - 500 Hz) and send it preferably to a single loudspeaker in the room. Now walk around the room slowly and you will notice there are certain places where the tone sounds louder, and others where it sounds very faint (maybe even seeming to disappear altogether). These are nodes and antinodes resulting from standing waves. Obviously you don't want these to occur at the place where you choose to listen otherwise you won't be hearing it correctly and will tend to falsely EQ or otherwise compensate. To flatten the frequency response for at least a given position in the room is the goal of acoustic room design and the reason we apply different treatments. Absorbers help in that - they "absorb" sound energy, Too much however and the room will sound too dead. They also help cut down on relections, so need to be placed strategically.

You say:
jb+ wrote:...when i sing, i must admit, i know ( eyes closed ) where i am.....one just has to be sonically observant---no doubt an
acquired skill i'll be acquiring more of...
Unfortunately a microphone is not possessed of this "skill". It will be your job to ensure that the recordings, when played back in entirely different environments convey the necessary acoustic (psychoacoustic) information - something called translation. This will be exceedingly difficult if you overcompensate for deficiencies in the recording environment.

This subject is vast, and we're only touching it lightly here. Again, the resources referred to previously should make this much clearer.
...yes I think it can be easily done, just take everything down to Highway 61.

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Re: If it was your money?

Postby papi61 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:05 am

I don't think spending most of the money on room acoustics and high-end monitors is a good choice for a beginner, especially one on a very limited budget. The Focusrite VRM system is a very acceptable replacement, especially on a temporary basis, that is until funds become available for serious near-fields and room treatment.

On the other hand, I would spend on decent monitoring headphones, like the AT ATH-M50 ($150), which works fantastically with the VRM system ($100.) $250 will get you nothing as far as good monitors and room treatment go.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:39 am

.


Hey folks and friends...

I think we exasperated room policy as it should be ---i get it...to a degree sufficient unto the project, but it's
cost prohibitive to 'the project' my audiophile friends....

But the bonus news is i'll have vocal booth to get a really dry voice sound....recorded for precise effect transformation and maybe more...........If you have the driest vocal track---it's the easiest to tweak, true---don't want to toy with original tag along echos, boo.....

NB: this is a purist doctrine of recording---get the most genuine sound possible...and work with it---that way nobody can accuse you of ' forgetting-the-source-in-technology ', eh ?

BONUS: Why not make the closet ( along the hall ) into a cosy vocal booth...one that can do acoustic guitar along side any vocal.....it's already quiet in there---burlap and whatever might make it an erased signature....If treated,
my closet will be a place for vocals, anything acoustic.......

I realize this treatment only serves recording or tracking---not wide open mixing.........but i am enthusiastic to record some interesting vocal signatures/effects....and acoustic guitar the same way too.....

So besides getting all the *flower* out of the closet.....How do i built it ?---What materials ? what know-how ? what
principles of sound, etc...?

jb+





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Re: If it was your money?

Postby BriHar » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:24 pm

Not a big fan of using closets (or clauset as in claustrophobia (closetrophobia) ;) )
Might I suggest rather using a local absorber Image
Also, see this article: http://realtraps.com/art_booth.htm
...yes I think it can be easily done, just take everything down to Highway 61.

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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Woodcrest Studio » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:31 pm

I think we exasperated room policy as it should be ---i get it...to a degree sufficient unto the project, but it's
cost prohibitive to 'the project' my audiophile friends....



You are naive.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:06 pm

.


Woodcrest,

Naive about what? Room sonics ? ---yes, true...but the point is moot without any money for it---don't forget
i have to buy every piece of gear, eh ?.....so, for the time being i must satisfy with a $1200.00 computer, $400.00
interface, $700.00 digital piano controller, $300.00 condenser mic, $300.00 or so for monitors, and whatever miscellaneous, etc.....The forum insists, so do i, on treatment---but it also said JUST GET STARTED.....i think this is wise......



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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Woodcrest Studio » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:56 pm

I still disagree with you and in fact, you are disagreeing with most of the people here that have advised you. You most likely have gear lust and a hole burning in your pocket. Hey, I was once like that too. Nothing wrong with it! :D

The bottom line is you are just getting started and you are new to this. Everything is relative too and the weakest link in the chain brings everything else down. You should really assign a line item in your budget for treatment. Here's why:

You are an aspiring musician and recordist. Sound needs stable environment to gather in order to listen critically and make good judgment calls. When you are able to listen critically, you will be able to discern more qualities in the sound that you are mixing and recording. In doing so, being a self recorder, the nuances of your performance will be further exposed. This will bring an awareness that should lead you to optimize your voice for instance:
"Wow, I really hear my lisp when I sing that way."
Then you will alter the shape of your mouth next take and draw closer to what you want becoming a better singer.

Apply the same to mixing. And don't rule out: the room you mix in can also be the room you record in too.


Well, that's all I have to say on this. I will always disagree with anyone that has a startup budget that says there isn't enough money for any treatment. That is BS BS BS considering how inexpensive a duvet is at a goodwill on up to mineral wool or compressed ridged fiberglass and burlap to store bought ready-made panels. Sure, gear is sparkly with ooh ahh... drooooool... but there is so much to gain with a stable environment.

I said and still feel you are naive because you took one single and very important piece of advice and threw it out the window with: it's cost prohibitive to 'the project'. The advice was given by many different people, some with many years experience, like myself, all on their own time and right on the mark in my opinion. Now go and buy what you see fitting to the 'project' and don't even think of any acoustic treatment! :mrgreen:
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:07 am

.

Everybody

No, No, No.......I want good treatment---just need the cash....Woodcrest and everybody are right:
Monitors and room sound are key

...so let's put it in the budget with all the other expensive things---we all
know my budget by now: $3000.00 to 3,500.00....what percentage for monitors and treatment would
you designate ??????

I know what gear lust is....but it's for rich people....i think of outcome, eh ?
I've investigated all components i plan on buying, and yes, i am thrilled, all the while thinking of the produced song......but not to the point of making a mistake with my sponsors gift of money.....that is, buying too soon, or irresponsibly......

FLASH BACK: If when you began you had only $3000.00 and you wanted to record your songs.......what did you
do to make it ( acoustically and otherwise ) to where you are now......?ASK YOUR IMAGINATION: How did you play out this game....if it was your money ( and of course it was only $3000.00 ).....???

Buy me a studio....i'll pay ya

Thanks again to Woodcrest

john



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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:02 am

.



to Whomever knows computers and Cubase

This is the best computer i can find in my locale.....Question: Is it adequate to run Cubase 7 ???
What about the AMD CPU ?
I'll store apps like Cubase in the solid state drive and all sound data on the 2TB drive

I think this company has also made a PC tailored to music production---but $4K....boo
In any case it has the only blurb that mentions " music editing "

The important need is that it talk the talk with Cubase 7...is it compatible ???

In our time all powerful PCs are built for gaming first, but alternate purposes are OK i assume....

What do you think about the specs on this as a Music Computer ???

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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Woodcrest Studio » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:55 am

http://www.adkproaudio.com/

Top notch company. Scott and his colleagues will take very good care of you.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby Strophoid » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:02 pm

That's a nice looking PC, but you're paying a lot for a videocard that's way better than you'll ever need for Cubase. Also gaming case, keyboard and mouse are probably more expensive than what you need, so you could probably save on that too.
Unless of course you also want to play games on that PC.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby krudler » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:59 pm

That machine is beyond overkill for your needs.
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby BriHar » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:27 am

Previously I always built my own DAW PC systems, and every time, the PC hardware landscape had advanced so much that I had to devote a good amount of time to understanding it all before I could start building the system.
This time I decided I'd had enough and opted for a different approach - you might consider this ;)
I sought out a reputable handler and told him I wanted a PC that had to optimally and without issue, run Cubase 7 on Windows 7 in 64bit - even providing the HP Specs - pointing out that it cannot cost anywhere near those HP prices. I further informed him of the specific Hardware peripherie that would be attached (Controllers, Audio interface. dual screens etc.). This was the condition of the deal - if it didn't perform to my expectations, I was not obligated to buy it. As it turned out I haven't had a single HW related issue (touch wood ;) )
If you have the opportunity to arrange a conditional deal like that, at a reasonable price, it might be worth thinking about!

P.S. Another form of cheap treatment for the lowest budget would be "movers blankets". Though not ideal they might help for damping some of the main problematic reflections.
...yes I think it can be easily done, just take everything down to Highway 61.

Sun Point Studio Turbenthal, Switzerland


Cubase 7.5.30 - 64bit | Cubase AI7 | WaveLab 8 - 64bit | PT10 | UR28M | UR44 | CMC-PD/4xFD/QC/AI/CH/TP | BCF2000 | Shuttlexpress | Graphire Tablet | Cubendo Custom Keyboard | Lenovo E31 Workstation:Xeon E3-1225V2/3.2GHz; 8GB DDR3 SDRAM; 2x Intel-Flash520 SSD 180GB (C:/D:);1TB 7200rpm Sata3 (F:); DVD RW (E:); Ext. 3TB USB3 Freecom + WD 1TB; Nvidea GeForce GT 630 4GB DDR3 Video Ram AGP PCIE | Win 7 Pro 64 Bit
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jb+ » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:15 pm

.

When i first got serious about recording i bought three books by mail: "The art of Digital Recording" by
Steve Savage---mostly about after the fact of owning/using gear ( not buying gear so much )......."
Cubase 6 Power ! "---same thing, clearly written reference manual, not much to say to the gearless......and PC Recording Studios for Dummies This one suggested " Get enough RAM as you can....and two disk drives !!! one for apps ( Cubase 7 ) and one for audio data as it requires great space ".......The specs i quoted about above say 120 SSD---lots of room for Cubase and other apps......and 2T hard drive---lots of room for audio data ( it uses lots of space )......On those two specs ( which are hard to find together elsewhere ) ....i think the above PC is pretty darn shipworthy, don't ever want a leak....a data bottleneck that is to say........

What could be better is a custom-built PC, it's attractive.....it seemed to work out for BriHar.....The question is would $1100.00 be better spent this way, or not, or much better spent?.....Whereas with a Walmart PC like the
one above you get more because they have less over head and, most importantly, a well "verified" product....with
custom design you get a PC tailored to your needs, and no money spent on superfluous graphic cards, etc.....

I prefer the custom design approach---But where to find the seller ?....is he as trustworthy like the big shot retailer has to be ? ....yeah, where do yo look for a good custom builder ?

One thing is sure: I want to avoid frustration before it happens---I want to give Cubase running around room....
and i definitely don't want to ever compromise a project because it's stressing the RAM, CPU, hard drives, etc.....
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Re: If it was your money?

Postby jamusic » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:55 am

curteye wrote:I Love this thread.

With all this great help from you guys it kinda makes me want to start all over again. :)
(just an old man's fantasy)

{'-'}

Me too!

I'm all excited all over again. :P

Think I'll toss out my $14,000-15,000 worth of stuff and just start again.

Wait - I'm too old & too stupid. :oops:

Never mind!
-C7.5.20 -Win 7-x64 Home -Intel i7-2600k -ASUS P8Z68 V-Pro -Antec High Current 520w -16 Gigs RAM
-Hyper 212+ CPU Cooler -3 SSDs -WD 1TB Black Caviar Hard Drive -2 WD & 1 Touro 1TB External USB 3 Drives
-TC Electronic SK 48 Audio Interface -Presonus StudioLive 16.4.2 Mixer -Roland UM-550 MIDI Interface
-Neumann TLM 103 Mic -DBX 376 Tube Channel Strip Pre Amp/Comp -ART DPS II Tube Pre -Amp
-Yamaha P-200/88 & Nektar Panorama P6/61 Keyboards -V-Drums/Roland TD-6
-4003 Rickenbacker Fireglow Bass -5 Guitars -4 Sound Modules

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Re: If it was your money?

Postby papi61 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:29 am

jamusic wrote:
Think I'll toss out my $14,000-15,000 worth of stuff and just start again.



Remember that what you paid $15k is now worth $1.5k... :lol:
Desktop: i7 3770k, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX770 + GT640-DCSL fanless, 3 monitors (30" 2560x1600 + 2x 27" 1920x1080), 256 GB SSD (OS), 2 TB SATA III (audio), 3 TB SATA III (sample libraries), 3x 3 TB USB 3.0 (backup/archives), RME UFX, Win 8.1 Pro x64, Cubase 7.5, Sonar X3, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.

Slaves: 2x i7 2700k, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 3 TB SATA III, Win 8.1 Pro x64, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.

Laptop: 17" HP EliteBook 8770w (i7 3820QM 2.7 Ghz/3.7 Ghz max OC, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 1 TB SATA III), RME Babyface, Win 7 Pro x64, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5, Cubase 7.5, Sonar X3.
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