Single core performance or total performance?

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Single core performance or total performance?

Postby TheNavigator » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:01 pm

So, which one is better:

CPU A with 4 cores, a total performance of around 10.000 points and a single core performance of 2.500

OR

CPU B with 6 cores, a total performance of around 12.000 points but a single core performance of only 2.000?

I wonder because I'm going to upgrade my 5 year old Phenom II X4 system soon to an Intel 4930K, but I'm not sure if some other CPU with only 4 cores but higher single core performance would better with Cubase 7.5.20 64 Bit...

Audio IO is done via RME Hammerfall.
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PC watercooling and overclocking afficionado.

Main device: Cubase 7.5 64 bit on Windows 8.1 (4930k @ 4.1 GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 3 SSDs), Halion 5, Padshop Pro, RME Hammerfall DSP + Multiface, Avid Artist Control V2, Roland A88, AKG K701 headphones, lots of other nice stuff
Mobile cutlery: iPad Air 2, Cubasis (always the latest version), Audio Bus 2, Focusrite iTrack Dock, one or the other cheap USB MIDI keyboards

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Jarno » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:41 pm

While waiting Scott (JCschild) to come up and give a definite answer ...

Rule of thumb: if you are after extreamly low latency figures, you should seek for higher single core performance. In other cases the total performance is a king.

But ... since total performance figures in these cases are so close, I'm not sure if 6-core processor will give you any advantage. Coplex tasks (like DAW) does not scale up in linear manner when number of cores increases: 6 cores of performance X does not give you 6 times X performance.
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby TheNavigator » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:54 pm

Thank you, that sounds reasonable.

However, the way Cubase works (thread per track) I think there should be some scaling.

Having said that, since my PC is watercooled, I may even go for overclocking that CPU to 4.2 GHz, but I have to check first if this causes electromigration or some other life expectancy issues - I aim to keep the CPU for 2 - 3 years.

Yes, I'm very interested in what Scott has to say. :-)

I will also ask another question in another thread in the meantime... there is one thing that really bothers me...
Chris, The Navigator... Keyboards, songwriting, CTO and aspiring coproducer for Visions of Atlantis.

PC watercooling and overclocking afficionado.

Main device: Cubase 7.5 64 bit on Windows 8.1 (4930k @ 4.1 GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 3 SSDs), Halion 5, Padshop Pro, RME Hammerfall DSP + Multiface, Avid Artist Control V2, Roland A88, AKG K701 headphones, lots of other nice stuff
Mobile cutlery: iPad Air 2, Cubasis (always the latest version), Audio Bus 2, Focusrite iTrack Dock, one or the other cheap USB MIDI keyboards

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby JCschild » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:53 pm

its getting to be a balancing act. Cubase does scale well (when all is right)

ideally you would want a single 6 core High GHz processor. easiest advice I can give without confusing the point.

the 4930K is presently the best overall for power and cost.
the 4930K overclocked is near impossible to beat without getting into 10-12 core single processor. and even then its dollar foolish
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby TheNavigator » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:59 pm

Ok, thank you very much.

So 4930K it is. With that nice Gigabyte board. :-)

I want 16 GB of RAM for now... with this CPU I get myself 4x4 GB so I can add another 4x4 later?
Chris, The Navigator... Keyboards, songwriting, CTO and aspiring coproducer for Visions of Atlantis.

PC watercooling and overclocking afficionado.

Main device: Cubase 7.5 64 bit on Windows 8.1 (4930k @ 4.1 GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 3 SSDs), Halion 5, Padshop Pro, RME Hammerfall DSP + Multiface, Avid Artist Control V2, Roland A88, AKG K701 headphones, lots of other nice stuff
Mobile cutlery: iPad Air 2, Cubasis (always the latest version), Audio Bus 2, Focusrite iTrack Dock, one or the other cheap USB MIDI keyboards

Favorite synthesizers: u-he DIVA, Padshop Pro, Halion 5

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Patanjali » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:15 pm

JCschild wrote:the 4930K is presently the best overall for power and cost.

+1. Exceedingly diminishing returns for anything above it or Xeons.

And any mb for it will likely be able to take its successors, because Intel is keeping the 2011pin line going for a while.
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Norbury Brook » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:29 pm

They're keeping the 2011 pin but the new CPU's won't work with current 2011 boards so you'll have to upgrade your MOBO as well unfortunately :(



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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Patanjali » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:24 pm

Norbury Brook wrote:new CPU's won't work with current 2011 boards so you'll have to upgrade your MOBO

Ah, the LGA2011-3! And needs X99 chipset too.

Clayton's support = the support you don't get when you're being 'supported'. They obviously want their pound of flesh!

So, it will be back to the: new CPU => new mb + new RAM as well.
Patanjali
Half of the folk music duo, DevaKnighT. Music available from CD Baby (MP3/FLAC) and the usual culprits. All recorded and processed on Cubase 7.x at 192k.
Comp: i7-4930K : Asus P9X79-E WS : 32GB : GV-N750OC-2GI : SSDx4+2 : UAD-2Q : Dell S2340Tx2 & Samsung 55" 4K.
HW: Nmn U87 Ai : JA251x2 : YRG : Korg padKontrol+uKEY2 : RME FF400+800 : M-Patch-2 : Tannoy Reveal Active+TS-12.
SW: Win 8.1 Pro 64 : Cubase 7.5.20 64 : iC Pro : RX3Adv : Ozone5Adv : Goliath/SO PP/Pianos/Gypsy : Sup.Drum 2.0 : AT7.
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby TheNavigator » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:38 pm

Got myself the 4930k now - installing Cubase... :-D
Chris, The Navigator... Keyboards, songwriting, CTO and aspiring coproducer for Visions of Atlantis.

PC watercooling and overclocking afficionado.

Main device: Cubase 7.5 64 bit on Windows 8.1 (4930k @ 4.1 GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 3 SSDs), Halion 5, Padshop Pro, RME Hammerfall DSP + Multiface, Avid Artist Control V2, Roland A88, AKG K701 headphones, lots of other nice stuff
Mobile cutlery: iPad Air 2, Cubasis (always the latest version), Audio Bus 2, Focusrite iTrack Dock, one or the other cheap USB MIDI keyboards

Favorite synthesizers: u-he DIVA, Padshop Pro, Halion 5

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby lukasbrooklyn » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:44 am

TheNavigator wrote:Got myself the 4930k now - installing Cubase... :-D


got the same recently, running @ 4.3GHz per core on an asus board, working fine so far.

the biggest issue is with cubase crashing due to ram issues (like it always has done, regardless of hardware).

(i am mostly working in 32bit still, with jbridge-wrapping kontakts for orchestral stuff sometimes.. but i still surpass the critical threshold of the amount of ram a x86 program can allocate just using individual [non-rompler] plugins...)
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Norbury Brook » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:45 am

lukasbrooklyn wrote:
TheNavigator wrote:Got myself the 4930k now - installing Cubase... :-D


got the same recently, running @ 4.3GHz per core on an asus board, working fine so far.

the biggest issue is with cubase crashing due to ram issues (like it always has done, regardless of hardware).

(i am mostly working in 32bit still, with jbridge-wrapping kontakts for orchestral stuff sometimes.. but i still surpass the critical threshold of the amount of ram a x86 program can allocate just using individual [non-rompler] plugins...)



Sorry to say this, but why on earth would you buy the latest and greatest hardware and then cripple it by running x86(32 bit)? Makes no sense.

If you're serious about stability/performance then use Cubase x64 version along with ONLY x64 plugins. I can't think of any major plugins apart from URS that haven't had x64 version for a number of years now. I've been running totally x64 for about 4 years.

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Patanjali » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:09 am

lukasbrooklyn wrote:the biggest issue is with cubase crashing due to ram issues (like it always has done, regardless of hardware).

Not an issue with Cubase if you run it beyond its or the OS's design limits! It is an issue with your choice of usage scenario, as Norbury indicates.

If fact, this 'issue' has nothing to do with core performance per se.
Patanjali
Half of the folk music duo, DevaKnighT. Music available from CD Baby (MP3/FLAC) and the usual culprits. All recorded and processed on Cubase 7.x at 192k.
Comp: i7-4930K : Asus P9X79-E WS : 32GB : GV-N750OC-2GI : SSDx4+2 : UAD-2Q : Dell S2340Tx2 & Samsung 55" 4K.
HW: Nmn U87 Ai : JA251x2 : YRG : Korg padKontrol+uKEY2 : RME FF400+800 : M-Patch-2 : Tannoy Reveal Active+TS-12.
SW: Win 8.1 Pro 64 : Cubase 7.5.20 64 : iC Pro : RX3Adv : Ozone5Adv : Goliath/SO PP/Pianos/Gypsy : Sup.Drum 2.0 : AT7.
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Norbury Brook » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:33 am

Patanjali wrote:
Norbury Brook wrote:new CPU's won't work with current 2011 boards so you'll have to upgrade your MOBO

Ah, the LGA2011-3! And needs X99 chipset too.

Clayton's support = the support you don't get when you're being 'supported'. They obviously want their pound of flesh!

So, it will be back to the: new CPU => new mb + new RAM as well.



Yes, I was disappointed when I read this as I'd hoped in a years time I could drop in a new CPU for a simple update.

I think the main reason is the new DDR4 ram which is quad channel so requires a different MOBO/chipset.

I was hoping a consumer 8 core CPU would become available for my current MOBO at some point in it's lifespan.

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Patanjali » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:45 pm

Norbury Brook wrote:I was hoping a consumer 8 core CPU would become available for my current MOBO at some point in it's lifespan.

Oodles of cores and OCing - best of both worlds!
Patanjali
Half of the folk music duo, DevaKnighT. Music available from CD Baby (MP3/FLAC) and the usual culprits. All recorded and processed on Cubase 7.x at 192k.
Comp: i7-4930K : Asus P9X79-E WS : 32GB : GV-N750OC-2GI : SSDx4+2 : UAD-2Q : Dell S2340Tx2 & Samsung 55" 4K.
HW: Nmn U87 Ai : JA251x2 : YRG : Korg padKontrol+uKEY2 : RME FF400+800 : M-Patch-2 : Tannoy Reveal Active+TS-12.
SW: Win 8.1 Pro 64 : Cubase 7.5.20 64 : iC Pro : RX3Adv : Ozone5Adv : Goliath/SO PP/Pianos/Gypsy : Sup.Drum 2.0 : AT7.
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby lukasbrooklyn » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:07 pm

Norbury Brook wrote:
lukasbrooklyn wrote:
TheNavigator wrote:Got myself the 4930k now - installing Cubase... :-D


got the same recently, running @ 4.3GHz per core on an asus board, working fine so far.

the biggest issue is with cubase crashing due to ram issues (like it always has done, regardless of hardware).

(i am mostly working in 32bit still, with jbridge-wrapping kontakts for orchestral stuff sometimes.. but i still surpass the critical threshold of the amount of ram a x86 program can allocate just using individual [non-rompler] plugins...)



Sorry to say this, but why on earth would you buy the latest and greatest hardware and then cripple it by running x86(32 bit)? Makes no sense.

If you're serious about stability/performance then use Cubase x64 version along with ONLY x64 plugins. I can't think of any major plugins apart from URS that haven't had x64 version for a number of years now. I've been running totally x64 for about 4 years.

MC


it makes sense from a purely practical standpoint- i need to finish off projects to a deadline, and they had been started using a 32bit version of cubase, and 32bit plugins. the increased CPU horsepower lets me do that quicker / with more processing. as soon as i get time off to fine tune a x64 system i can make the switch (which is about a weeks' worth project in itself). i made the comment however because there is a lot of misconception among daw users who either attribute too much importance to the amount of RAM installed, or to processor speeds vs DAW stablity (whilst they still use x86 software).
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.2, c6
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, ...

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby TheNavigator » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:41 pm

I clocked that machine now to 3.8 GHz and it can run 12 (!!) voices of u-he Diva in "divine" quality.

Thats far beyond what I expected even in my wildest dreams. CPU doesn't get hotter than 66°C on air cooling (with a huge cooler), so I may try pushing the envelope a bit further. 4.0 GHz, possibly?

Stock voltage is what I want. I don't want to kill that EUR 500,- CPU via electromigration in a few months.

Edit:

Just added two FX channels (all Diva instances sending there) with 2caudio B2... still works without hiccups (using ASIO guard, of course... doesn't work without).

256 samples of latency.

This machine is a beast. :-D
Chris, The Navigator... Keyboards, songwriting, CTO and aspiring coproducer for Visions of Atlantis.

PC watercooling and overclocking afficionado.

Main device: Cubase 7.5 64 bit on Windows 8.1 (4930k @ 4.1 GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 3 SSDs), Halion 5, Padshop Pro, RME Hammerfall DSP + Multiface, Avid Artist Control V2, Roland A88, AKG K701 headphones, lots of other nice stuff
Mobile cutlery: iPad Air 2, Cubasis (always the latest version), Audio Bus 2, Focusrite iTrack Dock, one or the other cheap USB MIDI keyboards

Favorite synthesizers: u-he DIVA, Padshop Pro, Halion 5

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby JCschild » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:18 pm

I told ya it would rock!

FYI you are very safe with a .2v increase 4.4-4.5GHz all day long!
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby TheNavigator » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:21 pm

JCschild wrote:I told ya it would rock!

FYI you are very safe with a .2v increase 4.4-4.5GHz all day long!


How hot can I go safely?

@ 4.2 GHz (stock voltage, not fully stable) I get around 71°C.
Chris, The Navigator... Keyboards, songwriting, CTO and aspiring coproducer for Visions of Atlantis.

PC watercooling and overclocking afficionado.

Main device: Cubase 7.5 64 bit on Windows 8.1 (4930k @ 4.1 GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 3 SSDs), Halion 5, Padshop Pro, RME Hammerfall DSP + Multiface, Avid Artist Control V2, Roland A88, AKG K701 headphones, lots of other nice stuff
Mobile cutlery: iPad Air 2, Cubasis (always the latest version), Audio Bus 2, Focusrite iTrack Dock, one or the other cheap USB MIDI keyboards

Favorite synthesizers: u-he DIVA, Padshop Pro, Halion 5

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby lukasbrooklyn » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:43 pm

TheNavigator wrote:
JCschild wrote:I told ya it would rock!

FYI you are very safe with a .2v increase 4.4-4.5GHz all day long!


How hot can I go safely?

@ 4.2 GHz (stock voltage, not fully stable) I get around 71°C.


i am getting ~52°C @ 4.3GHz (no water cooling or anything).

as far as safe goes, i read something about 90, but i wouldn't want to go that high up for sure.
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.2, c6
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, ...

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Patanjali » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:08 am

TheNavigator wrote:CPU doesn't get hotter than 66°C on air cooling (with a huge cooler)

Have you thought about using a self contained liquid CPU cooler?

Their advantages are:

a) Replaces a big lump of metal that places a lot of stress on the middle of the motherboard with a small puck.
With normal heatsinks, I certainly wouldn't want to jar the case too much or the heatsink might come loose or crack the motherboard. They are usually only braced at their very bottom with their centre of gravity (CoG) well away from their mounting, especially with tower cases where the CoG isn't even over the mount points.

b) Takes the heat from the CPU directly to the outside, rather than having one or more fans on the CPU heatsink throwing heat into the case, which then needs another fan to draw it out of the case.

c) Self-contained and zero-maintenance, unlike the daisy-chain piping and reservoir needed for full integrated water-cooling solutions. With the latter, I always worry what would happen if a pipe came loose because of damage or improper fitting during assembly, let alone how one adds new components into an existing piping route!

d) Some, like the Zalman I bought, actually throw some cool air on components near to the rear-mounted fan/hat-exchanger block, so it cools the rear memory sockets and bridge chip on the Asus motherboard.


Some gamers have even bought separate ones for their graphics cards. Certainly, I could just take the fan off my new N750OC video card, and use a CPU cooler, but it runs pretty cool as is.
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Half of the folk music duo, DevaKnighT. Music available from CD Baby (MP3/FLAC) and the usual culprits. All recorded and processed on Cubase 7.x at 192k.
Comp: i7-4930K : Asus P9X79-E WS : 32GB : GV-N750OC-2GI : SSDx4+2 : UAD-2Q : Dell S2340Tx2 & Samsung 55" 4K.
HW: Nmn U87 Ai : JA251x2 : YRG : Korg padKontrol+uKEY2 : RME FF400+800 : M-Patch-2 : Tannoy Reveal Active+TS-12.
SW: Win 8.1 Pro 64 : Cubase 7.5.20 64 : iC Pro : RX3Adv : Ozone5Adv : Goliath/SO PP/Pianos/Gypsy : Sup.Drum 2.0 : AT7.
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby TheNavigator » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:09 am

Absolutely what I thought, too, Patanjali.

I was watercooling for years, but couldn't manage to get my loop stable so I switched to air this time. What I'm considering now is a Corsair H100i, but I need a different case for this one, and I really have to find out what I want first, before I start this "project".

On a sidenote: I'm running 4.0 GHz now, stable, with my "custom built" burn in test for Cubase (Diva + Aether orgy). Stable, not more than 71°C. I like it.

Why Intel doesn't put the stock clock higher puzzles me. May be "ignorant user" issues (those guys who think that stock coolers are any good) or a question of yield.

When it comes to me all I can say is: 4.0 GHz at stock voltage seem to be fine. A solid 17.6% overclock. Perfectly reflected in Passmark as well.

Interestingly, the guy at the computer shop, who sold me the Scythe Mugen 4 I use as a temporay solution told me that customer built watercooling has falling out of favor and the closed systems you mentioned are the way to go nowadays.
Chris, The Navigator... Keyboards, songwriting, CTO and aspiring coproducer for Visions of Atlantis.

PC watercooling and overclocking afficionado.

Main device: Cubase 7.5 64 bit on Windows 8.1 (4930k @ 4.1 GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 3 SSDs), Halion 5, Padshop Pro, RME Hammerfall DSP + Multiface, Avid Artist Control V2, Roland A88, AKG K701 headphones, lots of other nice stuff
Mobile cutlery: iPad Air 2, Cubasis (always the latest version), Audio Bus 2, Focusrite iTrack Dock, one or the other cheap USB MIDI keyboards

Favorite synthesizers: u-he DIVA, Padshop Pro, Halion 5

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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby lukasbrooklyn » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:45 pm

TheNavigator wrote:Absolutely what I thought, too, Patanjali.

I was watercooling for years, but couldn't manage to get my loop stable so I switched to air this time. What I'm considering now is a Corsair H100i, but I need a different case for this one, and I really have to find out what I want first, before I start this "project".

On a sidenote: I'm running 4.0 GHz now, stable, with my "custom built" burn in test for Cubase (Diva + Aether orgy). Stable, not more than 71°C. I like it.

Why Intel doesn't put the stock clock higher puzzles me. May be "ignorant user" issues (those guys who think that stock coolers are any good) or a question of yield.

When it comes to me all I can say is: 4.0 GHz at stock voltage seem to be fine. A solid 17.6% overclock. Perfectly reflected in Passmark as well.

Interestingly, the guy at the computer shop, who sold me the Scythe Mugen 4 I use as a temporay solution told me that customer built watercooling has falling out of favor and the closed systems you mentioned are the way to go nowadays.


i'm using this guy, apart from keeping the cpu @ around 50-55 with a 30% oveclock, it's super silent: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835608024
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.2, c6
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, ...

http://www.lukasturza.com
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby TheNavigator » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:13 pm

Just ordered a new case and that Corsair H100i. Let's see what my malaysian i7 can do.
Chris, The Navigator... Keyboards, songwriting, CTO and aspiring coproducer for Visions of Atlantis.

PC watercooling and overclocking afficionado.

Main device: Cubase 7.5 64 bit on Windows 8.1 (4930k @ 4.1 GHz, 32 GB of RAM, 3 SSDs), Halion 5, Padshop Pro, RME Hammerfall DSP + Multiface, Avid Artist Control V2, Roland A88, AKG K701 headphones, lots of other nice stuff
Mobile cutlery: iPad Air 2, Cubasis (always the latest version), Audio Bus 2, Focusrite iTrack Dock, one or the other cheap USB MIDI keyboards

Favorite synthesizers: u-he DIVA, Padshop Pro, Halion 5

"Storms can't kill the faith in rainbows"
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby JCschild » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:00 pm

all new processors have thermal shut down you cant fry them...
low 80s are acceptable
I do not like the Corsair water coolers I prefer the Zalman
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Re: Single core performance or total performance?

Postby Patanjali » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:55 pm

JCschild wrote:I prefer the Zalman

+1. But then I just selected on spec, though I did look at a video review of mine.
Patanjali
Half of the folk music duo, DevaKnighT. Music available from CD Baby (MP3/FLAC) and the usual culprits. All recorded and processed on Cubase 7.x at 192k.
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HW: Nmn U87 Ai : JA251x2 : YRG : Korg padKontrol+uKEY2 : RME FF400+800 : M-Patch-2 : Tannoy Reveal Active+TS-12.
SW: Win 8.1 Pro 64 : Cubase 7.5.20 64 : iC Pro : RX3Adv : Ozone5Adv : Goliath/SO PP/Pianos/Gypsy : Sup.Drum 2.0 : AT7.
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