monsterjazzlicks: That would be great mate. Especially if you discussed ‘FREQUENCY TUNING’ of different OP’s etc.
+: > Sure, I’ve been meaning to do this anyway, but you’re making me want to do it sooner. I was being lazy anyway. I’ll discuss briefly or summarize some frequency tuning with the operators on creating a certain voice structure.
monsterjazzlicks: That would be very good because I am particularly interested in how you might decide up setting which OP ‘FREQ. TUNING’ to what. On some of the DX21 presets, they look totally random (eg. 1:0, 2:0, 13:23 and 27:54)! But collectively they produce a (say) FLUTE!!
+: > I’m guessing the modification of the hz higher pitch will synthesize the likeness between. It also depends on how they manipulated the envelope as well pitch envelope. What algorithm ? That’s not necessarily random, but I’ll need to know the algorithm.
monsterjazzlicks: Well I was not including ‘Volume’ or ‘Pitch’ EG’s here. Nor a specific ALG. Just a regular ‘On/Off’ note with its’ OP’s tuned to different FREQ’s. Though of course I can provide you with a very specific example if you so require?
+: > I was just, curious on the Alg, because it would show how they modified those frequency ranges through carrier and modulators. The envelopes was something I was just adding to mention how those frequencies are filtered through them to synthesize that flute characteristic. I’m actually trying to attempt a particular flute sound, but I will not give away it’s style just yet.
monsterjazzlicks: For instance, PRESET 2 (UPRIGHT PIANO) in ALG #4, has the OP “FREQ’s” set to -
1:0, 0:78, 1:0, and 3:0 respectively. My question being please, how/what/why did they come up with the 0:78 for OP2? I can hear it creates a soft ‘marimba-ish’ quality to the overall timbre, but pedantically there must be a specific reason they chose this exact value!?
+: > the. 78 will modify the 440hz wave in a lower pitch. One can raise the amplitude of this modification to have tone distortion or enough to sound close to a plucking string sound. This sound is utilized through three modifying tones. It probably isn’t as exact as an actual upright piano, but they can assume the harmonic structure can be modified in a tone through some harder or lesser strikes of mallet hitting a piano string, which could resound waves in the category of a little less than 440hz, around 440hz and around 1320hz.
monsterjazzlicks: That’s exactly the jigsaw piece I need! Yes, OP2 is modulating OP1 with a FREQ of ‘0:78’. But how are WE (the user) supposed to arrive a ‘0:78’? I follow my EAR a lot of the time (which is ok for lots of things), but I do not really understand from a Math/Physics point of view how Yamaha can so confidently arrive at these (irregular) parameter values?
monsterjazzlicks: QUOTE “The. 78 will modify the 440hz wave in a lower pitch”. So OP1 still retains it PITCH of 440kHz, but it’s TIMBRE changes because it is being modulated. But WHAT is the ‘0.78’ generating? And why not ‘0.53’ or (higher) ‘0.97’? I understand what all the parameters MEAN, but it is the MATHS and WHY that I am stuck on!
+: > It’s generating a modified waveform, and the carrier is being transformed a bit into that .78 wave form. The math can be a bit daunting, but you can always just hear what sounds good to you. Those fractions of semi or fine tuning can be administered however you wish, but it’s a fraction less than 440hz or forward, if you wish. It’s tuning it closer to an octave less than 440 cycles per second. And fine tuning, I don’t think that’s an available option on the dx21, the tx81z gets into fine tuning as well fixed hz, and micro tuning. This is capable with the dx7 too. it’s theory, not too factual or law, it’s the possibility of synthesizing accuracy.
monsterjazzlicks: Well WHERE did you learn this please? I have read all of the obvious DX SYNTH books but they do not really talk about OP relationships other than how to generate a Saw, Tri, and Sq wave etc!?
+: > also Harmonics of instruments have been measured for years, they have standard scale implementation and how many cycles per second for syringes and theory on other instrumentation harmonics. If you have an oscilloscope toy can probably see visual what’s going on in the wave form.
monsterjazzlicks: So Yamaha (and other companies) will have had a TABLE to follow/emulate the HARMONICS of the instruments of the orchestra? I knew they must have had something because these FREQ’s are not something you could guess up!
+: > of course not, the harmonic structures of instruments are a completely whole other study, which I dabble in at times and it really helps to see how things are. Have you tried the books of Chowning ? Look up Chowning and FM synthesis. You can also if interested study some harmonics and other. I’ve always wanted to make very cool sounds unlike the typical grinding mash up FM I was used to. I’ve been hearing plenty good new characters out there making their own sounds, especially yours too. I enjoy hearing others synthesis on FM. I hear a lot of other bad ones too or typical ones that are very bizarre.
I’m still working with FM and trying to make some synthesis wizardry happen. I’ve gained a bit of ground in the theory, bit there is always more to learn and attempt at. I feel using a good amount of a synthesizers functions can really make one some outside the rest. People often tend to use only the limited sounds and not explore an entire sound design system. I don’t blame them for not wanting to take FM though, not for everyone.
monsterjazzlicks: Can you recommend any books please which have all of the instruments HARMONICS listed (like you were talking about earlier)? Did you use any such books yourself?
+: > Ummmm look up Harmonic structures of instruments or acoustics. I have a few books on the matter, one which includes the famous Hemholtz on the sensation of tone, it’s not going to give you the answers you need right away but a good reference. I think Wikipedia can have a lot of charts, but discerning sound to try and emulate it on a synthesizer takes practice on hearing. How many timbres are sounding and how each timbre is functioning through playing harder or breathing Harder or softer. A six string guitar is usually set in EADGBE, each string is about a forth up ascending until the next E(third at B though, our it’s set in Sixth and fifth counting the sharps) a dx7 may be able to emulate a guitar through six carriers, but the vibrato of string tension might be hard to develop, so a tx816 can refine it if all boxes are available. A combination of six carrier algorithms mixed with a few modifying algorithms. ( this is just an example) the fun part about emulation is the idea that it isn’t too correct and how one can establish a unique sound outside of a custom acoustic instrument, that’s just my thoughts personally. So look up instruments online and listen carefully at what you think the wave forms of timbre are doing as well check the scale tempered quality of them. Dover publications also has some books on the matter.
monsterjazzlicks: But back to our original question again please:
“OP2 is modulating OP1 with a FREQ of 0:78” - does OP2 actually alter the TUNING of OP1? I mean (depending on the OUTPUT LEVEL of OP2) is it dragging it down from 440kHz to a lower pitch (freq.)? Or is it ‘filtering out’ the HARMONIC content above 440kHz (and the OUTPUT LEVEL of OP2 determines how STRONG the effect of this filtering is), and therefore altering the TIMBRE aspect?
+: > I think it adds another wave form almost, combines the two and modifies the first wave in a direction of whatever hz you choose to attempt adding another timbre that reflects a similar wave form.
monsterjazzlicks: wtf!? lol
I see it more as the MOD bending the CARRIER to (in this case) something close to ‘0:78’. The result is a COMPOSITE wave in that it is not 2 x discrete waveforms (ie we only hear ONE!).
+: > sounds about right, the sign wave is adjusted with another wave. This may result in that timbre quality which can reflect the timbre quality of actual instruments.
monsterjazzlicks: What do you use for STORAGE of your sounds please? Obviously you only have room for 32 patches on the DX21!
+: > I haven’t used any besides the patch area storage of the synths themselves. I recently bought a software, which I haven’t even used yet called DX7 manager. It’s a cool software that one can do all the work on the computer with wave forms and save midi patches to. It was mentioned to me by a fellow FM designer on YouTube by the name Roboticrealm. He’s a cool guy and does cool patch work with FM, you probably already know of him. Check him out and that software. I like chatting about these things, some FM designers out there don’t even give you the time of day and just brush you off like you’re not doing the same thing. It’s really immature. But I like getting to know you cool characters out there, with an open mind and take concepts from all over. I’m still a student in life and enjoy learning more. I’ll have to figure out that DX7 manager, but I’m so lazy and used to just storing them right there. I almost think in cubase that you have, you can store midi files ?
monsterjazzlicks: Awesome, that’s cool as I also have the DX MANAGER which I bought a couple of months back. I actually have YAMAHA MDF2 DATA FILER which I have been experimenting with. I am working thru it’s manual still. Same for DXM. I am getting the manual printed off for that.
I not heard of ROBOTICREALM (or at least I don’t think so). Does he give demonstrations on the DXM?
Yes, you can SAVE/LOAD Midi Files in Cubase etc.
+: > he’s still online, so you can check him out. He may have a tutorial or other about DX manager stuff.
FM synthesis: > http://youtu.be/Ep9I7-jADX0 > thought this was interesting a bit, but there may be a digital one too.
monsterjazzlicks: Thanks a lot, I will have a listen mate.