A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

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A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby mrtomcat » Thu May 09, 2013 7:40 am

I went to Kinkos today to have them print and bind a copy of the Nuendo 6 and Wavelab 8 manuals because I simply find it unacceptable not to have a printed copy of the manuals... sadly they would not print it for me because it's copyrighted and I would have had to bring in a signed permission note, to be confirmed via fax, by Steinberg.

This is so ultra frustrating. On top of it they wanted $1000 (no kidding) for a colored print or $250 for black/white...ONE copy that is... I still think that woman either had no clue or was trying to rip me off...

In either case:

Dear Steinberg, I am begging you outsource the printing, add a permission slip for us to have it printed. Myself and others are more than happy to pay some extra for a printed copy.
But PLEASE let us have a printed manual, Please!

I get the environmental argument, but if you print limited editions and on recycled paper you are doing very little harm. And as mentioned earlier at least let us have some form of permission slip to print a personal copy (a quality copy that is...not a home printer thing).

thank you!
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Lydiot » Thu May 09, 2013 1:28 pm

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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Chewy Papadopoulos » Thu May 09, 2013 5:04 pm

Sure. But a manual would not cost anything close to that.

In fact, it looks (after about 5 minutes of research) that for anywhere from between forty and sixty bucks one could print and bind the Nuendo pdf from an online service specializing in that sort of thing.

Recycled paper? It could be done, and for less than the online services, should Steinberg wish to make the manual available. Print-on-demand short runs don't have to be expensive.

I still miss my paper manual... but whatever. Not enough, apparently, to invest in any of the options described here!

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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Hugh » Thu May 09, 2013 5:19 pm

Hello,

Many requests to Steinberg involve them spending money. "Add this feature..." (development time), "add this plugin..." (licensing cost), etc. This one is a potential profit center and at worst is a break even proposition.

Third-party printing and binding of professionally produced pdfs on recycled paper in medium sized runs is inexpensive. Have the printer do the distribution (which happens a lot) or in the US have Synthax do it, charge $70 for it, everyone makes some money. Thereby enable the unique application of a printed manual that can't be fulfilled with a pdf one.

We work in large broadcast applications, if we attempted to keep paper manuals of everything our facilities would be covered in manuals instead of gear. Hundreds of models of equipment. That's to say I'm very familiar with pdf manuals and their use and I refer to them regularly. In this application, studying a manual during off times to improve skills, a paper manual is often better. It CAN BE DONE with pdfs but a paper one is better. Why? That's individual and not answerable between users, but if the customer is served and money is to be made doing it, why not?

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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby mrtomcat » Thu May 09, 2013 5:46 pm

Exactly.

And really as a minimum just include a voucher that authorizes a licensed user to create (have created) 1 printed copy of the manual.
That way we (and the printer) don't violate copyright laws.

I am a computer person but I hate reading books/manuals on a screen, I need the book for lengthy readings otherwise I get frustrated (I know, I feeling very old while reading my own writing :))
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Jim Clark » Thu May 09, 2013 11:42 pm

I have always been a fan of printed manuals. Like many here, I refer to them regularly.
Recently, I discovered that some forward-thinking independent schools have implemented what they call a 1 + 1 program, issuing an iPad and Macbook to each student. The Ipad replaces the student’s backpack full of books, and is used for content consumption, and the Macbook is used for content creation.
I decided to try this in my studio, with the Nuendo manual on my iPad and the Nuendo session on my main computer.
I like it!
I am now doing the same with my other pdf manuals. The searchability factor as well as not having to switch/close/minimize my main session windows makes this method a winner!
#old_dog_new_tricks
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Lydiot » Fri May 10, 2013 6:35 am

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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby neilwilkes » Fri May 10, 2013 10:59 am

This is something that really irritates me as well.
Personally, I hate having to use PDF files - the constant use of these blasted things has done more to screw up my eyes (I now have to go to the opticians as a matter of priority as my close sight has been ruined by computer screens, and having to use PDF all the time really is not helping the situation).

Even setting this aside, given the cost of Nuendo, a printed manual should be included. The so-called environmental argument is BS, as trees for pulping to make paper are all grown specifically for the purpose and the net "gain" by not printing manuals is negligible if there is one at all.

I will not be buying WaveLab 8 because of the lack of printed manual - It is that simple - and if Nuendo also goes down this path then I will be reconsidering my position there as well. I like my books - proper, paper & glue books that I can take with me anywhere & sit down with - and before anybody bangs on about how a tablet will do this, let me please point out the environmental impact of making these tablets (including their batteries and the other nasties in their construction & given their very short life span) is considerably higher than printing manuals will ever be.
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Oliver.Lucas » Fri May 10, 2013 1:52 pm

+1 for the permission to print the pdfs. If you want a printed version you should have it.
-1 for the return of printed manuals as default. iPad retina solves the issue for me..
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby etl17 » Sat May 11, 2013 1:00 am

+1 for printed manuals as a purchase option.
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Omega Arts » Sat May 11, 2013 3:59 am

I've been a loyal user since 1.6 and I'm really *quiz* there is NO MANUAL.
I don't want to hear about digital tablets or any such thing.
I want a MANUAL.
Plus it should be included in the price. An extra $70 no thank you. I have bought every version of Nuendo and Cuba see since Nu 1.6 and I can't get a MANUAL?

I really don't care about budgets and money what about customer loyalty. Where's my manual?
Steinberg, concentrate on music that's what they say. Yes I can do that after I have to personally download over a thousand page manual and then bind it.
Sad times we operate in! I love the product so print a frigging MANUAL!
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Lydiot » Sat May 11, 2013 5:36 am

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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby mrtomcat » Sat May 11, 2013 7:46 am

I say, give the option for a printed manual + $50 OR
Outsource to a print shop and have them charge +$35 OR
Add a voucher to allow a place like Kinkos to print 1 copy per customer

Reading on tablets is truly annoying (for me) and as stated tablets, batteries...way worse on the environment.
I also get that many people are fine with the pdf's...so let it be an option...
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby lucien » Sat May 11, 2013 7:56 am

Shipping software with a printed manual is archaic and a waste of money and resources. If you need a hard copy, have a print shop make one for you from the PDF.

Steinberg does;t need to supply you with a voucher. They have more important things (like new features) to worry about.

Steinberg was one of the first music software companies to stop shipping manuals. Personally, I thought it was pretty smart. I prefer to have the ability to search a PDF with key terms. Shoot me if I ever have to use an index or table of contents again.
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby mrtomcat » Sat May 11, 2013 3:37 pm

It is illegal for a print shop to print a copyrighted manual. Hence this post. A voucher would allow a print shop to print one. I was sent away for that reason.
So yes, we need permission from Steinberg to print a copy...
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Chewy Papadopoulos » Sat May 11, 2013 6:00 pm

mrtomcat wrote:It is illegal for a print shop to print a copyrighted manual.


That is not true, in general. And a quick search of online pdf printing services will find you plenty of reasonably-priced duplication services set up for this specific circumstance.

There's plenty of wiki (too much conjecture!) info, and individual company legal policy (more believable) based on copyright law and precedent.

Don't know where you are, but if it's the US or the UK, in the absence of very unusual circumstances, as in where making a copy for personal use is expressly prohibited, you can print out a copy. No permission required. What you CAN'T do is distribute and sell it.

Furthermore, if you read the information on the manual's first page, and this is pasted directly in from there (I am trusting that SB will not bust me for this!): "Registered licensees of the product described herein may print one copy of this document for their personal use."

To me, that pretty much settles the issue.

The prices are absolutely affordable. My editorial: let go of the "Kinko's" model. If they were going to gouge you like that-- AND wouldn't print without some kind of voucher, then you're shopping at the wrong place. Do a basic internet search. The short term solution is out there, and is not expensive.

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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby mrtomcat » Sat May 11, 2013 7:27 pm

Thank you Chewy!

That's what I wanted, a permission note to have a service print it. The person at Kinkos (I'm in LA) looked at the copyright section (more so skimmed over it I guess) and told me I would have to fill out a form that would have to be send to Steinberg for approval first...
Based on what's in the copyright section for both N6 and W8 I am allowed to have a copy printed.

Now I need to find a decent place because on top of it Kinkos wanted way too much money
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby mrtomcat » Sun May 12, 2013 4:35 am

Placed an order with https://www.bestvaluecopy.com/ came out to $83 something including shipping for the n6 and w8 manuals B/W.... I checked the FedEx.Kinkos option online first and they wanted $1000 in color or $200 in B/W (without shipping)... amazing I am still in shock over that one.

So hopefully I get to read the manuals soon in the way a manual is meant to be read and with the next N6 fixe release being released hopefully very very soon, I can finally start to enjoy Nuendo 6 and get creative again
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby mrtomcat » Thu May 23, 2013 7:00 am

So the printed manuals arrived...and boy am I glad I did this, it's so nice to be able to hold a manual in ones hand...

one advice for those getting it printed as well: Have them split the manual into two. This thing is huge, huge I tells ya :)
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby etl17 » Thu May 23, 2013 2:03 pm

For what it's worth, DP8 ships with over 1000 page manuals, PDFs and online help videos.
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby john1192 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:42 pm

Manual on a 30" monitor, searchable, and expandable - that is my world ... you can keep the paper and "Save the Tree's - Save the Tree's - Save the Tree's" sorry i was hugging a Sequoia ...

to each his own ... maybe one day an iPad will fall into your lap and there is your Manual / i would not be able to find anything in the manual unless i could do a search - really is a time saver ... in the meantime, good deal on the printing ...

cheers

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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby theoldman » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:34 am

I’d be interested to know how much energy this topic has used up
Views as well as comments. Plus Ipad smartphone use etc. Bs.Going to sleep with a good
Book is different to going to sleep with lights flashing and strobing through your head.Get it right
when I buy a care or whatever I dont get a pdf. If they want more for the product so be it.But all things come with a maual.
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby neilwilkes » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:01 am

Just because some print shops will do it does not make it legal to do so - there are countless places that used to advertise iPod ripping & loading services if you supplied the CD's - it was still illegal though. I know - we used to offer a vinyl > CD service and got hit with a "cease & desist or go to court under the Copyright & Related Rights act" by the UK Patent office. I still have the email - they were very, very nasty about it too - even though what we did was soley for OOP discs.
Given the cost of Nuendo there ought to be a printed manual. I get so tired of reading how I should get with the 21st century & read PDF onscreen or via a bloody iPad. I do not want an iPad. Not now, not ever.
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby indiescore » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:16 am

neilwilkes wrote:Just because some print shops will do it does not make it legal to do so - there are countless places that used to advertise iPod ripping & loading services if you supplied the CD's - it was still illegal though. I know - we used to offer a vinyl > CD service and got hit with a "cease & desist or go to court under the Copyright & Related Rights act" by the UK Patent office. I still have the email - they were very, very nasty about it too - even though what we did was soley for OOP discs.
Given the cost of Nuendo there ought to be a printed manual. I get so tired of reading how I should get with the 21st century & read PDF onscreen or via a bloody iPad. I do not want an iPad. Not now, not ever.


There are many other inexpensive e readers out there now, the trend is going deeper into digital to the point where software is soon to be digital download mostly.

Remember when we all bought CDs and now as tech advances end user sound quality goes down as most listen to mp3, and its downloaded, in fact music subscription services are booming, I kind of liked owning my CDs , collecting them.
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Re: A Plea to Steinberg...Let us have a printed Manual

Postby Hopetown » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:13 am

Just bought WL8 and was astounded that there wasn't a printed manual. I have to say, even the PDF was extremely poorly written for a first time user. The entire architecture of WL8 on first open made no sense to me and I've been using DAWs since they were introduced. I had never heard of an "audio montage" - particularly when what it REALLY is is a "project". And it doesn't open to a blank one by default. And even though the hierarchy for work is clearly "AM" on top, with file editing (aka "Sample editor") underneath, the icon for the file editor is ABOVE the AM editor in the task bar? I had to simply have some one explain the workflow to me.

I went crazy before buying WL trying to find out why SO many established mastering engineers don't use it. It made no sense to me considering the feature set. Now I begin to see why. The default screen ISN'T where you do the work and you're confronted with about 50+ icons bending all the way around the frame of the screen. It looks like a programmer threw up on my screen.

These are WL-specific gripes, but to the point at hand, if you're going to sell an expensive, powerful software tool that is definitely less than intuitive, you OWE it to your users to not only provide a printed manual, but one that clearly explains the narrative of the workflow right up front. A job that would be MUCH easier if the workspace actually HAD a clear narrative. Nuendo is at least worlds better than WL in that regard. Either way, a workflow IS a narrative. It's a story of how to get from raw material to finished product.

May I recommend Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance for summer reading at SB?

And yes please.....printed manuals. I can refer to an index and back to the relevant page faster than anyone can type in a search into an ipad.
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