Napoli - mix 2

Thanks, hopefully this change in mix will help. Moved bass closer to center and I also tried to roll off a little highs from gtr also not sure if it’s enough but when the final mix comes Marco will probably take somewhere else to finish this so I’m not to stressed. As far as verb goes think I will that alone
Kenny

Thanks hopeful I fixed pan issue, and yes it certainly isn’t a pop piece but it’s not as long as Whipping Post either :laughing:

The first thing that I must clear up though, is that it should be a cello and not a double bass because the E to D above middle C are both out of range for a bowed double bass which can play the B below middle C as its highest note, so that’s one of the reasons that it sounds unnatural. When sherz said just above that it didn’t quite fit, this is the reason that he was essentially getting at. ;p The second thing is that the timbre/texture of a double bass being bowed that high just isn’t pleasant to hear, again it should be a cello which can add a nice expressive vibrato at that range and still have a fairly full bodied sound as opposed to the much smaller viola as well as a greater control over dynamics. And if it were a cello it could play some much nicer melodic legato lines.

Now that’s out of the way…

Really interesting intro and I’m loving the combination of the guitar and the piano. I’m also loving the guitarists performance, but I felt that the positioning of the guitar didn’t quite feel right and I don’t mean left or right, idk it feels like it’s more to the front too much than the piano, or perhaps the piano is too far back. I don’t know if it’s just because it’s nylon strings or what but it feels that way. I really like the expression in your performances, you have a very good sense of dynamics and expression, which I think is quite hard to achieve on piano.

I was thinking after the intro, what I’d love to hear is a plucked double bass and it certainly fills up the sound when it enters. The chords, harmony and melodic content are all really soothing in a dreamyish kind of way. The tone/mood of the piece seemed to resonate with me more than others, no idea why, it just does and that’s quite nice. A very enjoyable listen, well done (as usual.) Top tunes and a second of yours favourited, I really loved Someday and Forever.

@Jonathon…Thanks for that listen, I am not sure if you have ever listened to Edgar Meyer who many think is the greatest Contra Bass player of our time. Here is an example of his work. I think you may appreciate his command of instrument. You will find the range of bass quite different than you think. He also uses bowing technique that he plays from either D2 or E2 to A4 on this piece. You probably won’t like the composition but it’s very educational as to what an instrument can do…You should really listen to whole thing though. I go no where near this range. When composing using Vienna there is no possibility of playing outside an instrument range. You can select different bow technique that will extend the range by a few notes but that is it.

A little something easier on ears with yo-yo and a couple of great players from Nashville

Here are actual instrument ranges for Double Bass
http://www.orchestralibrary.com/reftables/rang.html
http://s813.photobucket.com/user/kzarider/media/ContraBassRange.png.html?sort=3&o=0

That said you are correct about gtr being to out front I am putting it in the same room as bass and piano. Its funny how it’s often harder to mix simple things for me. When we go to final print on this I will give to another engineer with better ears and equipment probably if budget allows me to.

Again thanks for the insight hope you enjoy Edgar’s playing, my friend Gary who played on 1000’s of sessions and played w/symphony showed him to me and told of the things that he does in extending the instrument. I know it is odd for Bass to play above a B3 but it creates a certain timber which I like lol. Let me know what you think of this stuff!

Hi Kenny, nice playing as always. Nice sequence, and the bass sounds very natural to me, maybe after you equalized it… Certainly within the range of the instrument. Used to hearing a lot of high bass parts around here since my son is a classical bassist, and all the solo work puts it way up there. Your friend Marco plays very cleanly; really can’t hear finger noise. Really enjoyed this one.

Oh, and thanks for the link to the Edgar Meyer!

Yeah, they are fantastic players and I know Yo-Yo Ma’s work of course. I liked parts of the composition but yeah, some I’m not so keen on. ;p Although, as a composer and performer I am, of course, in complete admiration of the high skill level that those musicians possess. Coming from a compositional and orchestration perspective; the thing is first of all at the time when the bass is playing an E above middle C it’s in unison with the violin, and I must admit that the combined sound is very pleasing. I think that if the violin weren’t playing and the bass was playing that part solo that high, it wouldn’t sound anywhere near as pleasing. That’s also due to the faster pattern that I think it has a more satisfactory tone as opposed to longer, sustained notes at that range and he’s not pushing it to absolute range either. He’s also striking bass notes before playing that unison too so it does sound more together as an arrangement because the different pitch ranges are filled in rather than just the single bass note you’re sustaining making it sound unsatisfactory in tone. I think when you have long, sustained bass notes that high being bowed just by themselves and bare that the tone is unsatisfactory. As far as composition goes, I think it’d sound better to have the bass lower and write at that range for a cello.

Absolute and practical range are two different things and of course it’s based on preference and taste as well as context. You know that I admire your talents and work, but I’m sorry, even if it were a live recorded bass the long, sustained notes that you’re bowing that high on the bass would still sound unsatisfactory in tone/timbre and I think most people would prefer to hear the expressiveness of a cello. But speaking of which, you have great writing and performance skills, couldn’t you write both cello and bass parts for this piece? :stuck_out_tongue: It’d be really cool to hear. :smiley: I should add that I did get mistaken with the range by an octave, so apologies there :stuck_out_tongue: But I still think that the bowed practical range for satisfactory tone is lower.

The Solo:

He’s very obviously a fantastic player, but I think bowed notes as high as he is going just sound very unpleasant and are out of the practical range in the context of a composition for multiple instruments for resulting in good timbre in the context of an arrangement and I think that the context is the most important thing when discussing practical ranges of instruments. I also think that in the piece Attaboy they’ve given thought to the high bass notes in unison with the violin and if he couldn’t strike those bass notes too I don’t think that they’d have had the bass playing that high unison either because the bass range would be empty. I may be wrong of course, but that makes sense to me because of the context of the composition. I think given the context of your intro, a plucked bass would sound nicer, even sparingly, and having the cello playing legato/sustained lines.

Saying that though, although the Attaboy piece is very good, exceptionally well-performed…I still prefer the feeling from the pieces of yours that I’ve favourited.

Found this very moving…a beautiful piece man…just beautiful, like the way you never go where I think your gonna go…thanks for putting this up…Kevin

Im not going to analyse this creation you have made , brilliant playing and production and it shows a wealth of experience and great knowledge for which some youngsters can not comprehend .
Great piece sir !!!

You are ,come down off that trip your on and except that yours ears are not the only ones in the world !

jonathan isn’t on a trip…he just gives his honest and frank opinion, his ears are the only ones he’s got and if we put up our work to this forum we can and should expect a wealth of differing opinions…that’s what makes this forum so good, your attempt to “put down” a “youngster” is not worthy of this forum…all opinions ( given without prejudice) are welcome …Kevin

“younsters” tend to have less experience than “mature” people don’t you think and this is a mature accomplished piece that “some youngster” may not understand ,doesn’t make it wrong .
Do you own the forum kevin ??? no ,and I think you will find I have as much right as you me old chum to post here ,so if you don’t mind I was not talking to you SIR !!!
kzarider ,it’s a very nice piano piece once again well done ! :wink:

I’d first of all like to thank you for now derailing what was a perfectly adult exchange of both information and opinions with your childish insults and attitude. I’m quite surprised that you have the audacity to refer to others as “youngsters” when you throw childish attacks on internet forums around.

I assume that you didn’t read either of my posts or that you simply glossed over and seemingly forgot the contextual perspectives of my post in order to fuel your immense desire to not only take offense, but rather moronically take offense on someone elses behalf. In my first comment Kenny took no offense and replied back and exchanged information and opinion. If you’re trying to tell Kevin that you weren’t speaking to him so he shouldn’t have any right to reply to you. Well, by following that very same logic; I was speaking to Kenny and not you so perhaps you should follow your own advice, hmm?

If you wish to exchange ideas back and forth like an adult, then fine, exchanging information and ideas is always good. But when all you is try to flame, put down and/or take offense about something and have absolutely zero grounds to stand by for what you are saying…well, that very much speaks entirely for itself. You also very rarely post in this section of the forum so I’m not entirely sure whether you’re just trolling for “funz” or having a bad day at work. I might also add that if you’re so afraid to give or receive any criticism then you might as well stick to Youtube for the “subscribe for subscribe” environment. I give both praise and criticism where I feel it is fair. I’m also willing to admit when I am wrong at things, so instead of using childish attacks why don’t you reply with a post that actually contains some substance and more importantly, merit.

"and this is a mature accomplished piece that “some youngster” may not understand ,doesn’t make it wrong . "

So when I complement the overall piece and individual elements and then agree with several above who thought that the bowed bass notes didn’t sound good and give my perspective on why that may be, what you (mistakenly) hear is that I am stating that the entire piece is “wrong”? I’m sorry, but you honestly like a 12 year old with the kind of illogical thought process and lack of reasoning that you have behind these false statements that you are making and I wonder if you can actually read properly or whether your reading skills are as illiterate as your typing skills. MyLittlePony forums are --------> thattaway, btw filterfreak.

Now that everyone has had his or her turn, can we get back to kzarider’s piece, regardless what we think of anyones opinion? ( no offense to anybody of course)
Really musical, very gifted when you’re able to pull off such a piece of music, I think.

Life is tough enough without bashing those who we seek help and guidance from. I actually do come here as opposed to other sites for help in things that I mess up and hearing things I miss. I have done 3 or 4 edits since everyone shared their thoughts with me for no charge. Each change has truly help the music. I haven’t agreed with every statement that anyone has made but I never would count them as invalid either.

It’s life experience story time lol I had a teacher growing up that would put a panel of his best students together to critique our playing. Each lesson started that way. They blasted me and it should of hurt. I went home and practiced, they blasted less. This went on for months with me working harder at it, till the day came when they couldn’t find anything to say bad. Someone in panel asked teacher what he taught me that he didn’t teach them, all he said was you guys are bums he listened, learned from you and practiced what you taught him. He turned to me and said now it’s my turn to critique you.

That’s a paraphrase and the language is a little better than he used…I really do find it a privilege to be complimented and critiqued. This forum is a fine school and I believe that Jonathon’s nature is very analytical, mine is very emotional so I really enjoy/study his comments. He made me research what I wrote for that instrument and decide if it would work. His idea about adding cello/bass I actually considered but decided against because of the direction I want this to follow. I only wanted a trio (unless we add percussion) so cello is out for me, but the striking note comment in talking about Edgar Meyer’s playing also has me looking for alternate articulations to make my parts more realistic. His critique has me trying to learn my instruments better. We both also know we have differences in loves of musical style because we have discussed this previously, but can anyone say that learning from someones ability doesn’t make you better?

I promise I can stand up for myself if there is an uncalled for statement as I am sure a few people here can testify to. filterfreak so much thanks the compliments, I do have pretty think skin though lol. Thanks for listening ThePresent ! Wish I knew everyone’s real names though

Think I had better shut up as I’ve had to much wine. My ears are bleeding cause the sound guy at our show was so horrible and the wine was so great :blush: . Thanks to everyone here!!! Marco and I really enjoyed working on this and he is aggressively trying to line up backers to do an entire project so we will have real people and no simulations of instruments. I’m crossing my fingers

Kenny, well said, despite the wine! You’re right; the atmosphere here has to be thick skin and positive reaction to any suggestions or criticism. That’s what makes this place so useful. Still love the piece!

Another beautiful piece, Kenny.
Beautiful playing by Marco. :sunglasses:

I really enjoyed listening!

Yeah, I’m glad the majority of members are not only not afraid of receiving criticism but also giving it, and honestly. I feel constant praise actually starts to come across as fairly half-hearted, especially when there are no reasons given. I try to give specific reasons as to why I enjoyed something and why I didn’t enjoy something so much because personally I find that both of those help me. Making criticisms and being wrong helps you learn much more than staying completely mute and never giving any thought about how or why things work.

Personally I learned that my absolute range was mistaken by an octave. But more importantly, I’d never considered having the bass striking a note and then playing a phrase so through the discussion I’ve added a new compositional tool to my arsenal. I still think at the pitch that it’s bowing at it sounds great in unison with the violin, but I think solo it just wouldn’t have as nice of a tone to it and compositionally feel a little empty.

For the benefit of those seldom sour apples that occasionally try to sound tough online; Kenny knows how much I enjoy his music, he also knows how much I respect him as a musician and we can give each other both criticism and complements without having to overdo it with insecure praise all the time. Learning is good, discussion is good, end of. Now…where’s that wine Kenny and I’ll join you in a glass. :smiley:

That sounds great, crossing my fingers too. :wink: A full album of pieces like this and Someday and Forever would be great and I’d be rather privileged to be among the first to purchase it.

The playing and mix sound professional to me. Great job.
Sincerely,
J.L.

This is awesome. I just got lost in it. Great job Kenny!

Wes

Mesmerizing. Nice work, as always, Kenny. As long as it is, there are always plenty of sweet surprises along the way.
:slight_smile: