Audio & midi not lining up

I just want to say thank you all for the help :slight_smile: I appreciate it. I don’t post here often. I am experienced with this type of software and have never had this issue before, even on cubase, which is why I’m baffled

Try the loop test with audio. I suspect it might need the same tweak and then you can just leave it on.

I think the problem is the interface not telling cubase the correct latency rather than a bug.

Tried the audio loop test; the audio latency seems fine. For a loop back I expected some latency and thats what i got.

Heres a screen cap of the test I just did: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3657402/cubasemidiissue3.jpg

All tracks to be looked at are solo’d
Track 1: This is the audio recorded with no sample offset. The audio is being produced by my korg kronos which is making sound via notes being sent by midi via cubase connect to my kronos via USB. This is the original issue.
Track 2: Same as above, with a sample offset of 364
Track 3: This is the audio loop test. I send track 2 back into an input of my interface and retested. I got a very minor amount of latency and this is expected.

The only explanation is that Cubase is sending wonky midi out. To further make things weird, this is what I found in the midi loop test (midi ports on my MOTU being looped back into each other):
I sent chords. The chords each had 3 notes that started perfectly on grid. I gave the playback an extra 2 bars so it wasn’t abrupt, and when the chords were recorded, the notes weren’t together (auto quantize was off) as they should have been. If it was just late, that would lead me to believe that yes it’s just a latency issue… but the notes weren’t even together…

I think the problem is the interface not telling cubase the correct latency rather than a bug.

Is there a way for it to communicate better wth my interface? My interface is one of those that has better compatibility with cubase apparently… so I’m hard pressed to believe that my interface wouldn’t work rather seamlessly with cubase (protools and my motu hated each other however).

I’d say that it’s pretty clear that this is latency issue. All digital equipment introduces a measure of latency.

Cubase has good features to compensate for this, though. With plug-ins this is handled automatically, but with external a more hands-on approach is required to “teach” Cubase about the latency characteristics of your keyboard/soundmodule. Refer to pages 264-265 in the Cubase 7 pdf manual for an explanation about this.

One thing though. You will never be able to compensate for latency in real time (that’s what zero-latency audio interfaces are all about). At least not until someone invents a keyboard that can predict the future.

I did heed your advice and unfortunately it did not solve the issue I am looking to resolve.
I am doing direct monitoring via my interfaces external software, not through cubase. I am using -0- plugins

Thanks again for all of your help. if there is anything else I can do for you guys to further help me, please let me know!

Thanks

  • Rob

Have you set up the keyboard as an external instrument so Delay Compensation can be used?

I attempted however I do not believe that will ultimately solve my issue of midi from cubase coming out really wonky

i could probably set it up well if i could figure out the delay in MS

VST Audiosystem reports the input latency, maybe that would help. IIRC, setting up an ext inst allows you to ping the device to get the latency.

This did not solve the issue, unfortunately

Anyone with ideas? sorry to bump but I’d love to go back to recording with peace of mind :frowning:

A few Cubase settings that you might want to try if you havn’t already:

  • In the Device Setup in the Midi Port Setup section try having the Use System Timestamp for ‘Windows MIDI’ Inputs and Use System Timestamp for ‘DirectMusic’ Inputs checked.

In the Device Setup in the VST Audio System section try having the Adjust for Record Latency checked.

In the Project Syncronization Setup try having the ASIO Audio Device option as timecode source.

And from the top of my head, here’s a few things you might wanna try:

  • Check if there’s any BIOS updates for your computer available. BIOS updates are always fun!

Make sure you have the latest drivers for your sound card and also for your computer USB-controller(s).

Try using a different USB-port for your sound card.

Try using a different USB-port for your Kronos.

Try using regular midi cables between your soundcard and your Kronos instead of using USB for the midi data.

Try using another synth just to see if the midi timing is still bad to rule out any problems with your Kronos.

@Robrosen92 have you found a solution for this issue? I’ve just bought an expensive new custom laptop setup, including Cubase Artist 7 and Steinberg’s very own UR28M sound card and I’m experiencing the same issue of the DAW sending wonky midi out to hardware synths.

Am I right in saying that what you’ve been experiencing has only just come about? As I’ve had the system for less than a week and the issue has always been there, I’d be interested to know + whether there was any chance this could be the result of something like a software update.

I’ve spent hours trying to fix this, have gone through many of the fault diagnosis processes that you have and have trawled various forums, eventually posting the following thread:

I also have a MOTU midi interface (their 5 port Micro Lite), but get the same issue as you too when plugging my hardware synths directly into MIDI USB. Given that I’m using a Steinberg sound card that’s supposed to be uber compatible with their DAW, I’d ruled out the direct monitoring delays some people had mentioned.

If you’ve yet to find a solution also, I’d love to hear from someone in the know what Steinberg’s process is for fixing things like this. I’m pretty cheesed off as I’ve invested a significant amount of money and ended up with a system with serious recording limitations vs my old cheepo setup running Cubase Studio 4!

Have you tried the timestamp checkboxes in Device Setup\MIDI Port Setup?
The buffer sizes can also have an effect on MIDI timing, causing timing errors when set too high.

BTW there’s a very good Sound on Sound article about MIDI timing problems. I don’t remember when it was written, but it is several years old, and just as valid today. It’s well worth tracking down.

Hi johnstaf,

Thanks for replying. Afraid I’ve tried the checking the ‘Use system timestamp’ option, but to no avail.

I have just tried several takes of playing back a quantized four note chord from a MIDI out port to a MIDI in and recording it on a separate channel as suggested by Paul Coyle and tried by the OP. I’ve noticed that each time this is recorded, the gap between the first of the new recorded MIDI notes differs - I had ranges between circa 140-350 samples.

Weirdly, the order of the four notes and their spread always looked roughly the same though - lowest note, followed by the middle two played together and lastly the highest. Here’s a link to a picture of one of these MIDI out to MIDI in recordings:

Like the OP, this makes me think that it must be an issue with Cubase Artist 7 playing wonky MIDI out. It looked like this issue only came recently to the OP, so I’m wondering if there’s a small chance the OP’s difficulties started post updating to 8.1. I mention this as I see Steinberg have issued a sticky about ongoing driver testing for 8.1, however I wouldn’t know any different as my laptop was supplied with the update already installed.

n.b. I’m using a 128 sample buffer and am getting the same issue when reducing or decreasing it.

Hey man, thanks for joining the thread and validating my insaneness :slight_smile:
First things first, I’m actually on W7 and not 8.1

Unfortunately, I have not solved this issue, and have dismissed it as reality due to the following: Upon looking through every single session ever, I’ve always had the issue, and it’s never been bad enough to notice until i looked closely, so I’m just leaving it and manually moving the parts.

This is a bug. Plain and simple. This is not how the DAW is supposed to transmit midi. I understand, there has to be SOME kind of latency, since the DAW and outboard midi hardware cannot predict the future, but 365 samples worth of it? That’s pretty high! Not to mention, as the other poster had validated, even doing a midi loopback produces out of line midi. That’s just not right.

I am about to pass this on to steinberg as a bug. that’s what it is. plain and simple.

How have you set up this “midi loopback”? If I understand you correctly, you have used one of these alternatives:
A) You have simply taken MIDI Out on your interface and connected it to MIDI In.
B) You have connected the MIDI Out on you interface to MIDI In on your synth, and then the synth’s MIDI Thru to your MIDI interface’s MIDI in.
In either case, 365 samples of latency is pretty good. Especially if you’ve chosen the MIDI Thru route. Remember that there are 44 100 samples in one second. That’s 44.1 samples in 1 millisecond. You have a latency of ≈ 9 milliseconds.

All digital equipment introduces delays (latency). This is the reason that it has been recommended to avoid using MIDI Thru for time critical sound (such as drums), since MIDI was introduced in the 80’s.

This is no bug. It’s just the way MIDI works.

Note: If you try any of these setups, don’t forget to block MIDI Thru in Cubase! Otherwise you will create a MIDI feedback loop.

Hey Robrosen,

Thanks for clarifying that you’re on Windows 7. Good to rule out the Win 8.1 update being the issue.

Interesting to hear Svenne’s comment about circa 300 samples latency being the norm - I double checked some projects on my previous system and I was indeed getting about 200 samples delay between the midi note and audio playback on these and it wasn’t noticeable.

However I would have thought this would be the case for processing audio through an external soundcard rather than just playing back a midi note loop. Confused by Svenne’s comments about midi thru too as the Cubase instruction manual says this should be activated, with local off (see link below).

The crux of the issue I’ve been having, though - which I think is the same as Robrosen’s - is that midi playback latency is inconsistent and I’ve now noticed is sometimes far worse than circa 300 samples out. Below is a screen grab of two duplicate midi notes one after the other triggering a Moog arpegiator. The first one comes in over 3,000 samples late (which is very noticeable!), whereas the second has under 1,000 samples latency:

Bear in mind that the above was also with a 400 sample ‘Adjust for record latency’ to bring the recording forward and that these same notes sometimes playback with no latency at all!

@Robrosen could you let me know if the above differs from what you’re experiencing. If so, I’ll submit a separate note to Steinberg.

I keep on banging on about apregiators as this issue is most noticeable when using them. When I’m just playing individual notes, it’s easy to see from the waveform if these are being triggered slightly late and adjust the latency accordingly. With the wall of sound that apregiators create, it’s harder to narrow in on the issue, but I can hear the notes going out of sync. e.g. if I’m triggering a 16 notes per bar apregiator octave on C, bottom C should hit the downbeat each cycle, however sometimes this drifts out of time and flips to top C.

One other thing which I’ve noticed - and might be an issue - is that my ‘Average performance load’ meter at the LHS of the transport panel and in the ‘VST performance’ window regular overloads even though the average performance loads are low. The load randomly spikes when selecting things like audio parts or midi notes, however this doesn’t happen during midi playback or recording.

Again, probably clutching at straws, but could the above be some sort of system interference which is regularly trigging much more latency than I should normally have? In the interim, my hardware synths are gathering dust :frowning:.

Hi


I also in this situation that a every nute get different delay its not just in chord its in just each nute on the melody

But I do not understand something , is there some people here that do not encounter in this problem at all ?
And if all get this problem how you dill with that ?
Its hard to just move the melody end sit it in the start of the bar Because some nute would be late and some sooner


My solution is to just find the sweetspot and get to the hole track delay like -2 to the midi track before record to audio and is still be delay but not to much somtimes one nute get 40 sample and some get 113,80,70 And so on but the range stay between 40-120 sample …and It’s not all steady Each device need to get his timing end check from time to time to see if the timing still the same…hope if its help or somebody have outer solutions …


And I dont think its related to external tools the fact that it happens even without external recording just midi to midi sooo i think its or in the daw or in the soundcard and i check this on cubase 6.5,7,3 logic, ableton, repear ,flstudio… Its happen in alll… I try xp,win7,osx try to play with the bios setting but not update … No happen
Disbale filter, midi emulate direct windows midi and all the stufff…
Please tell me if it happen to all people or is just for some people

Yes it happens to all! That’s what Cubase’s latency compensation features are there for. When you’re using plug-ins this happens automatically. Recorded tracks are shifted forward in time, to compensate for the delays. However, when it comes to external equipment you may need to do some manual labor. Read the Cubase manual.

Could you please explain how you get the MIDI out of your computer and back in, without using any kind of MIDI interface (i.e. external equipment)?

There you have it. It has got nothing what so ever to do with Cubase. It’s just the nature of how digital audio works!

The only solution to this “problem” is to use only analog recording equipment.

Hi thanks

My setup to test the is i have fireface 400 and there two midi port soo i do in this mode
Midi port 1 out conect to midi port 2 in , in cubase i set tow chanel 1 was out to port 1 and the 2 was get in From port 2 in ,
I do not think it’s the software but maybe I thought it’s a problem of the sound card or computer part i dont no lol …

And you said "the only solution is to use analog recording equipment " what kind of you mean like
"Analog Sequencer " or ? You can Give me an example

Like this skandalpro.
https://www.google.se/search?q=analog+recording+equipment&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=YXqOUpeiAqG57AaouIDwDg&sqi=2&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1222&bih=852

lol soo just go back to the past :smiley: Anyway Thank you