Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Happy new year to you, too, and all! All unfortunate to be reading this thread. We, the mangy, disheveled, misfit, caffeine-wired, platform-debating, hunkered over our computers when we should be out, music computer nerds. :laughing:

My New Year’s wish is that this thread stay in 2013. :laughing:

Boot Camp?

Oooowwww, BOOM. :laughing:

Sorry, couldn’t resist and am totally kidding.

There’s nothing you can do to improve a mac. That was actually one of my points all along. You cannot tweak a mac because Apple won’t let you. And that doesn’t mean that windows won’t work unless tweaked, it means that you can squeeze EXTRA performance out of a windows machine but you cannot get anything more than what a mac comes with. And that’s because their philosophy is that their users are morons who can do serious damage if allowed to tweak, and therefore they should be kept on a short leash and guided like little children. That’s why you can’t even overclock a mac.

As for your silly rant about Best Buy, you’re once again comparing apples to oranges. Those are CHEAP machines that only a fool would use for pro audio. It’s obvious that you don’t know much about computers, and every one of your posts confirms it. Buy a BUSINESS PC and I can assure you that it will come with absolutely ZERO bloatware. Or, even better, build your own with way better components than the mediocre stuff that Apple overcharged you for.

Now THAT is the most idiotic thing I’ve heard so far in 2014! :laughing:

And I’m sure there’s a few forum members that use “consumer grade machines” for pro audio, so I’d be a little more respectful…they are not idiots.

As usual, the only thing you can do to debate me is insulting me. And, as usual, you can’t go beyond an insult and actually explain your position. Because you don’t have one.

Oh, and as for your usual lie and twisting of what I said, let me repeat it:

“Those are CHEAP machines that only a fool would use for pro audio.”

Have you notice the adjective “pro”? I never ever said that people who buy consumer-grade computers are idiots. That was your usual lie.

Lastly, let’s not forget that your precious macbook is a consumer-grade machine that would never ever pass military standard testing, like most business laptops do. Incidentally, no serious film composer would work on a laptop, except when out of the studio.

I’m a serious film composer. I don’t score blockbusters, but earn a healthy living. What exactly do you mean by that statement? I’m curious, as is the production house I work with.

Funny, because you dropped some names before, and yet you don’t have a clue what they use every day. Here’s a hint: none of the people you quoted use laptops to make soundtracks, unless they’re sketching ideas in a hotel room.

Just to pile on - recent Mac OS X to Win 7 convert here. Actually running Win 7 off my 2009 Mac Pro…the performance and stability gains using Kontakt / VSL / Cubase are staggering. Of course people not doing the HEAVY sample work I am probably won’t notice these kinds of increases.

Yes, that’s an EXCELLENT point. Those who claim there is no difference in Cubase performance (but also Kontakt, VSL, VEP etc.) between mac and windows clearly don’t have high requirements and they honestly see little to no difference in their projects. That, however, does not authorize them to treat anyone who tells the factual truth like a monster or a liar. But then again, to some people criticizing Apple is like trying to kidnap their children…

Well, I’m actual bit curious to hear what tweaks can be made on a MAC other then “Boot camp”?
:unamused:

Best Regards
Freddie

+1

Yes it might be true, but anyway…

Let them use MAC if they want to, “Papi”. Let people come up with their own conclusion instead trying to crusade all about it. I don’t really understand the point about debating about this? :unamused:
We all know already that Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 are the best choice when it comes to working with audio, DAW, multimedia, customization, performance and graphic rendering.

Honestly, I don’t think the MAC users even care, Papi. Its not because of that they choose MAC and APPLE.
Still, if you need to work with LOGIC PRO then MAC are still the obvious choice to make.

Best Regards
Freddie

Yeah, that’s what I said, Logic Pro is the only valid reason to use a mac, for anyone who just starts. Another valid reason is the inability of some people to switch OS, and that explains why some old soundtrack composers still use a mac as their master machine (but they already bought powerful PC’s and use them as VEP slaves to take care of the heavy loads.)

The few users here who savagely attacked me here just because I dared to tell the factual truth are all Cubase users, who swear that not only Cubase works equally well on the mac, but that windows is the inferior OS that would never work out-of-the-box and that needs heavy tweaking. That’s obviously to dissuade people on the fence. I don’t like people who lie for an agenda, especially when it comes to bringing other people into a cult. That doesn’t mean every person who uses a mac is a cultist. It’s obvious that they are when they violently react to the truth.

LOL!!! I don’t recall anyone “violently reacting to the truth”. I choose Mavericks as my weapon of choice to host my primary DAW’s…what’s the problem with that??? I don’t know if Mac is "better " than a PC, I don’t really care. And AGAIN; I use BOTH platforms in the studio on a daily basis. I love Win 7, I love OS. They both get my productions done reliably, they’re solid, so WTF? If I’m a fanboy (whatever that is), or an Apple cultist (sounds kinda cool actually :smiley:), whatever…call me anything you want. I can’t believe I’m actually responding to this :sunglasses:

And yes, one can achieve pro results with a MacBook. I just completed a larger project on mine. Granted, I used a slave to host the VI’s, so I cannot vouch for it as a standalone…although I suspect it would not be adequate for obvious reasons (as with any system with similar specs).

ROFLMAO!! Yet more proof you live in an alternate reality. Here’s a selection of the invectives you have thrown at me:

  • not sure what your issue is
  • you take things way to personal around here!!
  • you hate Mac and everything it stands for
  • plain childish and unprofessional
  • Are you saying that guys like James Horner, Trevor Rabin and James Newton Howard are idiots because they use Mac? Of course you are.
  • THAT is the most idiotic thing I’ve heard so far in 2014!

And that doesn’t include the really hilarious things you’ve said about windows and mac that are 100% untrue.

I choose Mavericks as my weapon of choice to host my primary DAW’s…what’s the problem with that???

Again, kid, there is no problem and I couldn’t care less what you use. But when you claim that windows doesn’t work for pro audio unless heavily tweaked or that an old mac pro is a “beast” (whatever that means), it’s fairly obvious that you have joined a cult and you’re not talking logically, let alone competently.

an Apple cultist (sounds kinda cool actually > :smiley:> )

Then don’t get hysterical if I call you that (see quotes above.)

And yes, one can achieve pro results with a MacBook.

Once again, you can only reply with a straw man and a diversion. I never said that. What I said is that no serious soundtrack composer would use a laptop as his master machine. And the names you dropped actually prove my point (if only you knew their studios… Let me guess, you don’t even live in LA…)

I just completed a larger project on mine. Granted, I used a slave to host the VI’s

Which means your laptop alone was not capable of handling the entire load. Not that I expect you to realize that you’ve actually proved my point.

Hi Papi,

I’ve decided to jump back into this thread in a genuine bid to try to understand your point(s) and share my point(s) as simply and clearly as possible. This attempt may go nowhere, but I truly hope I can get to the bottom of what you’re trying to say, without any personal criticisms. Just your point(s) on their merits alone and my point(s) on their merits alone.

I’ll leave my source material for your comments just to this thread. Please feel free to clarify on your point(s).

  1. You say that “no serious soundtrack composer would use a laptop as his master machine”

My response: That’s your opinion. I disagree. There are plenty of “serious” soundtrack composers who would or could use a laptop as their master machine if they wanted to. But more to the point and in a larger context, a modern high-end laptop – for example, a high-end DAW laptop from the likes of ADK (I own one and can vouch for them) and a high end laptop from Apple (I also own one) are both more than capable of being a primary front-end for a “serious” soundtrack composer, not to mention for many other pro audio purposes, such as post production, sound design, mixing, mastering, composing in general, and any number of other pro audio applications. And I should add that not everyone in this forum or who uses Cubase in general is interested in being a soundtrack composer – there are plenty of people here that are pros or have pro aspirations who do plenty of professional work on laptops and on computers far less powerful than current-gen high-end laptops.

  1. You say, “Logic Pro is the only valid reason to use a mac, for anyone who just starts.”

My response: This is simply incorrect. Logic Pro is of course not the “only valid reason” to use a mac, not to mention macs are not just “for anyone who just starts.” Not sure where to begin on that one. But I’ll simply start with this fact: a major “valid” reason why people choose one platform or another is simply personal preference. Some people simply prefer to use a Mac, some people simply prefer to use Windows, and there is nothing wrong with that either way. That is one of my main points of prior posts in this and other threads.

Additionally, a recent-gen Mac with a quad-core CPU or better is perfectly capable of running professional audio applications and generating professional results. It’s suited for many levels of music production task, from beginner to seasoned pro, in any genre and professional submarket of the music and audio industry. Likewise, you can easily find Windows computers that are also suited for the same tasks. Either platform is capable of any number of pro audio, amateur audio, and beginner audio tasks.

Beyond personal preference and capacity to handle most any type of pro audio task, there are many other “valid” reasons why one person might choose one platform or the other:

a) easier compatibility with friends, collaborators or clients
b) TCO - total cost of ownership (this can be complex calculation that goes far beyond a single computer)
c) business requirements
d) contractual reasons
e) support contracts
f) familiarity of specific hardware/software
g) requirement to use a specific piece of hardware or software
h) client preferences or even client requirements
i) availability
j) pre-existing software/hardware infrastructure investment
k) project workflow
l) performance of a specific application or plugin
m) etc…

  1. You say that a “macbook is a consumer-grade machine that would never ever pass military standard testing, like most business laptops do.”

My response: Assuming you are referring to a MacBook Pro, not an old MacBook, your point is irrelevant. Military testing is not required, and in fact “most” business laptops are in fact NOT military tested. Some are, but definitely not “most.” In any case, a current-gen MacBook Pro is more than capable of producing professional results, and, speaking from experience of owning many business laptops, the current MacBook Pros are built very well, and perfectly capable of handling the rigors of day-in day-out professional use. “Military standard testing” is of course not required. There are also plenty of Windows machines that do not have “military standard testing” that are also perfectly well suited for professional music production. I can personally vouch for ADK computers, for example, which are NOT military tested the last time I checked, and they are some of the best pro audio Windows laptops in the industry. And I can also personally verify that while very well built, the ADK laptops are not as well built or as well designed as my MacBook Pro. However, in either case, I’d be happy to use either machine for professional audio work.

  1. You say that “There’s nothing you can do to improve a mac…You cannot tweak a mac because Apple won’t let you.”

My response: That is incorrect. There are plenty of things you can do to both improve and tweak a mac, and also customize and configure them in many ways, besides the obvious hardware and software additions. Of course, you can tweak and customize Windows computers far more than Macs, since you have easy access to the BIOS of PC motherboards, but your statement is very misleading. OSX is a modern POSIX-compliant operating system built on Unix, as I’m sure you know, and there are numerous under-the-hood tweaks you can make to services and features running on Macs that are not that different than changes you can make to Windows machines. In fact, if you have a strong Unix/Linux background, there are plenty of things you can do on OSX under the hood that are very fascinating indeed. But even on a simple level, there are several minor tweaks I use on my Macs that are helpful for DAW use, from disabling Spotlight, disabling FileVault, changing the power profile, hiding alternate boot volumes with fstab, etc. Those types of tweaks are actually similar in principle to simple tweaks I also do to my Windows machines. But beyond that, there is a whole community of Mac Pro users who have been using different EFI firmware on their Mac Pros, for example, so they can upgrade their CPUs to a newer generation of CPUs, etc. I’ve personally tested this, and was able to increase memory speed and CPU support. There is a community of users who have modified graphics firmware, motherboard firmware, tweaked drivers extensively, not to mention an entire community of people who support Hackintoshes so you can run OSX on an even wider variety of custom hardware if you want to. And on top of all that, Macs run Windows very well via Boot Camp or Parallels Desktop, etc. The number of things you can actually do to a Mac and with OSX in general is pretty impressive. Multi-booting on a Mac with Windows, OSX and Linux is quite easy to do, which opens up other interesting doors as well.

  1. You say, “plugin count isn’t everything (granted, it depends on how you work…)”

My response: agreed. :slight_smile:

  1. You say, speaking of James Horner, Trevor Rabin and James Newton Howard using Macs, that “They use mac because they’re old and not very tech-savvy and they can’t get accustomed to another OS.”

My response: I can’t speak for James Horner, Trevor Rabin and James Newton Howard, but I think you can’t speak for them either. Maybe they are old. Maybe they are not very tech-savvy. Maybe they can’t get accustomed to another OS. Maybe not. Maybe they just like using Macs? In any case, they are professionals using Macs and doing fine, which simply supports the fact that there are plenty of pros of a high order that use Macs for this specific class of work… not to mention there are many other pro audio tasks done on both Macs and Windows that have nothing to do with film scoring. The post production industry in the US is dominated by Pro Tools, mostly running on Macs, in my experience, as I am sure you know. We could talk for hours about various sub segments of various entertainment industry professionals that use Macs in large majority to Windows. In any case, the platform is irrelevant to the level of work produced. Users of both platforms are limited only by their own skills and talents.

My general position is that the platform wars are over. It’s no longer relevant what platform you are running on, other than mainly workflow and personal/business preferences. Whatever works best for you and your unique situation. Performance is of course better on Windows – as I have stated before, you will of course get more bang for the buck on Windows. I have never argued otherwise. But the delta between Windows and Mac performance is smaller than ever, based on tests I have run myself, having been a heavy Windows user and follower of TAFKAT’s excellent DAW Bench work. While there is no doubt a Windows machine of the same price as an Apple machine will give you more plugins and better lower latency performance, the difference in price, amortized over the total cost of ownership in a business lifecycle is not that much, so it is not the headline issue it once was. There is no need to battle it out with Mac vs Windows, in my view. The two platforms can and do co-exist perfectly happily in the same studios where professional work is being done and paid for. And thank heavens for VE Pro, which makes working with both platforms better than ever.

OK, then please quote ONE major soundtrack composer in LA who works on a laptop on nothing but a laptop. I know pretty much all of them and all of their studios.

There are plenty of “serious” soundtrack composers who would or could use a laptop as their master machine

Well, they don’t. And if they have to use it as a master machine, it implies that the laptop isn’t capable of handling an entire soundtrack and needs at least a slave. Which proves my point. But then again, a SERIOUS DAW machine has at least three internal large-capacity drives, which kinda excludes laptops. Also, mobile processors aren’t as fast as desktop CPU’s.

  1. You say, “Logic Pro is the only valid reason to use a mac, for anyone who just starts.”

My response: This is simply incorrect. Logic Pro is of course not the “only valid reason” to use a mac, not to mention macs are not just “for anyone who just starts.” Not sure where to begin on that one. But I’ll simply start with this fact: a major “valid” reason why people choose one platform or another is simply personal preference. Some people simply prefer to use a Mac, some people simply prefer to use Windows, and there is nothing wrong with that either way. That is one of my main points of prior posts in this and other threads.

Why would anyone want to deliberately use an overpriced and underperforming machine that can’t even be overclocked? Allegiance to a cult is the only explanation. “I’ve got to use a mac because that’s what celebrities use! And I want to be just as cool!” Yeah, that explains it…

Additionally, a recent-gen Mac with a quad-core CPU or better is perfectly capable of running professional audio applications and generating professional results.

Like I said, people who use macs generally don’t have high requirements. Those who do have PC slaves that handle the heavy loads. And that includes virtually all major soundtrack composers.

there are many other “valid” reasons why one person might choose one platform or the other:

a) easier compatibility with friends, collaborators or clients
b) TCO - total cost of ownership (this can be complex calculation that goes far beyond a single computer)
c) business requirements
d) contractual reasons
e) support contracts
f) familiarity of specific hardware/software
g) requirement to use a specific piece of hardware or software
h) client preferences or even client requirements
i) availability
j) pre-existing software/hardware infrastructure investment
k) project workflow
l) performance of a specific application or plugin
m) etc…

a) again, it goes back to using Logic. Because files from other DAW’s are perfectly cross-compatible.
b) yeah, that’s the typical fanboy argument who believes that Apple machines actually cost less. It makes absolutely no sense.
c) such as?
d) such as?
e) another fanboy myth. If you buy a BUSINESS windows machine, it likely comes with an EVEN BETTER WARRANTY than what Apple gives you. My HP laptop came with a 3-year on site warranty. It’s an extra $350 if you want that with a MBP.

  1. You say that a “macbook is a consumer-grade machine that would never ever pass military standard testing, like most business laptops do.”

My response: Assuming you are referring to a MacBook Pro, not an old MacBook, your point is irrelevant.

It’s not irrelevant at all. I can drop my HP Elitebook three feet on a hard surface and it won’t break. And if it does, HP will give me a brand new one. Now try that with your MBP and then tell again that it’s irrelevant…

MacBook Pros are built very well, and perfectly capable of handling the rigors of day-in day-out professional use. “Military standard testing” is of course not required.

Not by you maybe, but if I accidentally drop my laptop, I’m happy to know that nothing broke inside. No such luck with a MBP. To you it might be irrelevant, but that’s because all fanboys see Apple’s shortcomings as “features”…

There are also plenty of Windows machines that do not have “military standard testing”

Now THIS is a truly irrelevant point. Because when you get a windows machine, you can CHOOSE to buy one that is rugged enough. Again, with a Mac you have no choice. But if you are a devoted member of the Apple cult, then you always try to rationalize Apple’s shortcomings as something that isn’t really need. Until Apple decides to copy from other manufacturers. In that case not only that feature automatically becomes of vital importance, but Apple invented it…

the ADK laptops are not as well built or as well designed as my MacBook Pro.

Subjective fanboy statement, which you cannot support with anything objective.


  1. You say that “There’s nothing you can do to improve a mac…You cannot tweak a mac because Apple won’t let you.”

My response: That is incorrect. There are plenty of things you can do to both improve and tweak a mac

Minor and largely useless. The truth is, you can’t even overclock a mac. And that’s the kind of MAJOR tweak that actually makes a difference.

And on top of all that, Macs run Windows very well via Boot Camp

Yeah, that’s the ONLY tweak that can bring dramatic improvements. And that totally proves my point.

  1. You say, “plugin count isn’t everything (granted, it depends on how you work…)”

Well, if we’re talking about soundtracks and orchestral mockups in general, then plugin count is quite important.

  1. You say, speaking of James Horner, Trevor Rabin and James Newton Howard using Macs, that “They use mac because they’re old and not very tech-savvy and they can’t get accustomed to another OS.”

My response: I can’t speak for James Horner, Trevor Rabin and James Newton Howard, but I think you can’t speak for them either.

And you’re wrong there, since I know these people.

In any case, they are professionals using Macs and doing fine, which simply supports the fact that there are plenty of pros of a high order that use Macs for this specific class of work…

Again, they ALL use PC slaves, which once again proves my point.

The post production industry in the US is dominated by Pro Tools, mostly running on Macs, in my experience, as I am sure you know. We could talk for hours about various sub segments of various entertainment industry professionals that use Macs in large majority to Windows. In any case, the platform is irrelevant to the level of work produced. Users of both platforms are limited only by their own skills and talents.

Again, for the reasons I mentioned before. Studios don’t change computers every year and many still use MacPro’s from circa 2006. In a decade or so, things will be completely different. 10 years ago, we were all using macs (myself included), if you have to change a machine today, you’d be hard-pressed to get a mac. And the new MacPro makes this choice even more absurd, as it’s a computer designed exclusively for 4k video editing. Why would anyone want to buy a machine with monster GPU’s (which you don’t need) that has no PCIe ports? Again, the answer is the same: rationalization and being a member of the cult. But most real pros aren’t cultists and that’s why they won’t keep buying MacPro’s.

My general position is that the platform wars are over.

I don’t think so. Apple cultism is very much alive, and that’s what drives the “wars.” I’m platform agnostic, I use what MAKES SENSE to use, and if tomorrow it made sense to switch to Linux or another OS, I would do it in a nanoseconds, no regrets and no second thoughts.

It’s no longer relevant what platform you are running on, other than mainly workflow and personal/business preferences.

Of course it’s relevant, because the mac offers lousy performance for the price. You can say the price is irrelevant, but again, that’s just rationalization driven by fanboysm.

Performance is of course better on Windows

And that’s what my point was all about. It makes no sense to spend more money for less performance. And I’m sorry but deciding to work with an overpriced and under-performing machine just because you like Apple’s icons better (or the styling of the case) makes absolutely no sense outside of fanboysm.

But the delta between Windows and Mac performance is smaller than ever, based on tests I have run myself, having been a heavy Windows user and follower of TAFKAT’s excellent DAW Bench work. While there is no doubt a Windows machine of the same price as an Apple machine will give you more plugins and better lower latency performance, the difference in price, amortized over the total cost of ownership in a business lifecycle is not that much

Yeah, that’s what you read on “cult of mac”, but it’s complete BS. Because it assumes that all PC’s are cheap machines that break down after 6 months. In TRUTH a PC can be anything you want, and since you can SELECT your own components, you can buy much better ones that what Apple tells you it’s the best (but it isn’t…)

And thank heavens for VE Pro, which makes working with both platforms better than ever.

VEP runs MUCH better on windows. But hey, I’m sure you accept a performance penalty because Apple’s icons are so pretty and the design of the case is so trendy… :unamused:

uarte, forget about the rantings of religious fanatics like papi61. They are impossible to convince. No matter what arguments are put forth. The best way to deal with them is if everyone chose to ignore them. They thrive on siring up controversy, and have no interest what so ever to contribute anything valuable.

It was nice to finally see someone putting forth a sensible argument regarding the “platform war”. I agree with just about everything you said. I do believe you are wrong in one case though:

This is definitely untrue. Case in point, I recently did a series of test regarding the excruciatingly long loading times of projects with lots of VSTi’s and mushrooming file sizes when saving, in CB7.5. All the reports were from Windows users and when I did the tests on my Mac, I got the flowing results.
Loading times:
The loading times are same on Windows and OSX. Neither performs better than the other.
File sizes:
The file sizes doubled. Nowhere near the 10x+ mushrooming reported by several Windows users. So, with this test OSX performed better than Windows.

This doesn’t say that much in the whole scheme of things. If you were to make a thousand tests, you’d find that Windows outperforms OSX in some and that OSX outperforms Windows in others. None of this matter anyway.

The only thing that matters is how fast and easy you can work, and that has very little to with numbers and everything to do with what you feel comfortable using! Personally, if I’m forced to work in Windows, a task can take 3 to 4 (or even longer) times to perform compared to when I’m working in OSX. When I working in OSX, I feel that I’m working with the computer and in Windows, against the computer. That is simply because I’m used to OSX. I have friends that have the opposite view, but we still get along just fine.



So, to all you fanatics out there: Use the platform you feel comfortable with and don’t bother your pretty little heads about what others are using. That’s none of your business!

Why waste time ranting about something so useless, when you could use the time to make some good music instead. Or have you bought Cubase/Nuendo/WaveLab for some other reason?

Your exact prior statement was “no serious soundtrack composer would use a laptop as his master machine” and I disagreed with that. I didn’t say the words, “major soundtrack composer in LA” which you added in your reply to me. I am not trying to prove that any specific “major soundtrack composer in LA” is using “nothing but a laptop.

Talk about a subset of a subset of a subset!

Let’s stay specifically on target on what has been stated. Again, your prior statement was “no serious soundtrack composer would use a laptop as his master machine” – I’m just quoting you – and to that I said that it was your opinion, and that I disagree. What’s the problem with that? I am happy for you that you know “pretty much all of them and all of their studios” in LA, but that does not include the rest of the world, and certainly not all people who consider themselves “serious composers.”

At best, you speak for a small segment of a small segment of a small segment of the market that uses DAW apps.

My larger point (and I will simply quote my prior statement, which you did not disprove) was that they “would or could use a laptop as their master machine if they wanted to. But more to the point and in a larger context, a modern high-end laptop – for example, a high-end DAW laptop from the likes of ADK (I own one and can vouch for them) and a high end laptop from Apple (I also own one) are both more than capable of being a primary front-end for a “serious” soundtrack composer, not to mention for many other pro audio purposes, such as post production, sound design, mixing, mastering, composing in general, and any number of other pro audio applications. And I should add that not everyone in this forum or who uses Cubase in general is interested in being a soundtrack composer – there are plenty of people here that are pros or have pro aspirations who do plenty of professional work on laptops and on computers far less powerful than current-gen high-end laptops.”

Impossible for you to say – you have excluded a vast number of people who consider themselves “serious” composers, not to mention many thousands of pros who do pro audio work on laptops in general.

And I might add, that even in my own quote, I stated clearly that you could use a laptop AS THE MASTER, of course implying that a “serious” composer might also avail himself of slaved machines.

Additionally, I refer you back to the larger point I was making about pro audio tasks in general – not just “serious composing” – as being suitable for a high-end laptop.

Re: a “SERIOUS DAW machine has at least three internal large-capacity drives” is only applicable to situations where you need three internal large-capacity drives. There are plenty of pro audio scenarios where even a single, large SSD is plenty. Again, we’re not talking exclusively “serious” composers here who need access to large sample libraries. We’re talking pro audio in general.

As far as mobile CPUs not being as powerful as desktop CPUs, of course they’re not, I never said they were. However, the current generation of mobile CPUs are incredibly powerful, more than enough for serious pro audio applications of great complexity. If you use DAWbench – the current defacto benchmark series for DAWs, which I’m sure you’ve tested, right? – to compare a current generation Intel Core i7-4960HQ (4 cores, 2.6 GHz), you will get performance that is not too far off from a current Core i7-4770K. That’s real-world performance, Papi, and that’s pretty incredible for a mobile chip. The desktop CPU will still beat the mobile chip, but not by that much. Now, if we take a current generation Intel Core i7-4960HQ and compare it to a prior generation Ivy Bridge or Sandy Bridge desktop chip, that new shiny Intel Core i7-4960HQ will actually beat out the prior gen desktop CPUs unless you overclock those older, but still powerful desktop CPUs. Think about it for a second. How many scores were composed on a Sandy Bridge, let alone Nehalem-based machine? That shiny new Intel Core i7-4960HQ can actually perform pretty close to a 6-core Xeon Westmere CPU that has powered many big pro rigs. Not to mention, it will even hold its own against 8 cores of Xeon E5520 CPUs, which is extraordinary. Mobile CPUs have come a long, long way, and they can absolutely suffice for very complex pro audio needs. For your “major LA” composers that you know, perhaps not. But that’s not what I said.

I gave a list of reasons, starting with the most obvious, as I said, “Some people simply prefer to use a Mac, some people simply prefer to use Windows, and there is nothing wrong with that either way.”

Just because you can’t understand why someone might have a personal preference, doesn’t make those people cultists. I also listed several other reasons, which I’ll address below –

Again, you seem to be very caught up on the whole “major soundtrack composers” argument, as I’ve repeatedly indicated that not everyone here is interested in being a major soundtrack composer, not to mention the legion of other pro audio uses for computers, from post production, sound design, etc.

As for people who use macs “generally don’t have high requirements,” that may very well be true compared to your “major soundtrack composers” which represent a small percentage of users, and not just a small subset of overall pro audio users. In any case, as I have mentioned in this and many other threads, I too use VE Pro when needed, and highly recommend it.

No, it doesn’t just go back to using Logic. I use both Windows and Macs, and there is no more simple session transfer than one that is done on the same platform with the same plugin library. Yes, sessions are generally cross-compatible to a large degree these days, but I have personally encountered numerous occasions where having the same platform was helpful and time-saving. You may feel otherwise, and that’s fine. It’s entirely possible that your Mac-based clients are more compatible with your Windows rig than mine. My situation is clearly different than yours, and I expect there are many people here with different situations that either of ours. My clients have benefited from me just having a Mac around, even before I started using it more and more for Pro Tools and now for Cubase. But to say DAWs are “perfectly cross-compatible” is incorrect, not to mention that it only has to do with Logic. It’s not “perfect” by a long shot.

b) yeah, that’s the typical fanboy argument who believes that Apple machines actually cost less. It makes absolutely no sense.

You utterly missed my point. I said, specifically, “there are many other “valid” reasons why one person might choose one platform or the other” – this could apply to EITHER Windows on Mac users. I did not single out Mac users as using the reasons I listed. I also never said that Apple machines cost less. Please re-read my original comments.


c) such as?

d) such as?

Applies to c and d – Some pro audio users have specifications clauses in their contracts for what software and hardware they must use. Granted, this is not common, but it does happen, and has happened to me. If you’ve ever dealt with corporate IT departments for companies that have media departments, this is actually more common than you may realize.

e) another fanboy myth. If you buy a BUSINESS windows machine, it likely comes with an EVEN BETTER WARRANTY than what Apple gives you. My HP laptop came with a 3-year on site warranty. It’s an extra $350 if you want that with a MBP.

I’m referring to something else – some corporate video production departments, for example, have IT support contracts that specify certain hardware/software, so this becomes a built-in bias for the company to use or NOT use specific hardware. I work with one such company, for which I do post production, where their IT department favors a specific hardware platform, so they keep buying that platform. You may think that’s insane, and it may well be, but some businesses are run that way. Again, a rare occurrence, but it is still a valid reason why someone chooses one platform over another.

re: on-site warranties, I’m not debating that. Yes, enterprise-class laptops from Dell, HP, etc., will have 3-year warranties. I have several machines myself, and those warranties have come in handy. In the case of the Dell workstations I’ve purchased over the years, they have on-site warranties, but, I had to pay for those too. They are, in fact, not free, even though they may say that on the website. If you talk to the folks at Dell Business, for example, at least as of the last time I asked, you can actually get them to remove the 3-year on-site warranties in some cases and knock off a few hundred bucks. I have done that with a Dell Precision laptop.



Again, I am referring to a statement that you made which was, “macbook is a consumer-grade machine that would never ever pass military standard testing, like most business laptops do.

First, you are factually incorrect that “most” business laptops have “military standard testing”.

As for you having the option of buying a Windows machine with “military standard testing,” that’s fine… go for it. Those ruggedized machines are indeed great to have for those that need that type of specification. However, my point was that MacBook Pros and many high-quality but NON-MILITARY grade computers can easily stand up to the task of professional day-in day-out professional rigor. The fact that you have a “military” grade machine is great, and I’m sure yours can take more abuse than mine. But my machines’ lack of military certification hasn’t prevented me from doing professional work.

I will contend that “military standard testing” is simply not needed for the vast majority of users. However, the fact that no Macs are military tested is a good point though, and certainly, if someone needs that level of testing, they should buy a suitable machine for the job.

As I mentioned, I own both and can compare them side-by-side. As I mentioned, I’m happy using either one, and both are well built, but I can guarantee that the MacBook Pro is physically superior in materials and workmanship, including screen, keyboard, case, fit and finish, to the ADK laptop I own. Granted, I don’t have the latest ADK model, and it’s possible they have changed OEM suppliers, but from their website, they look like they have the same suppliers. Nothing bad though. Having said that, again, both are professional and I would trust them (and have trusted them) for heavy use. I think if you handle both of these laptops, it would be hard for you disagree with me.

While you may choose to be dismissive, you are incorrect with your assessment of how tweakable Macs are. Having said that, I also clearly said, “you can tweak and customize Windows computers far more than Macs”, but you may want to review your own actual statement, which was, “There’s nothing you can do to improve a mac…You cannot tweak a mac because Apple won’t let you.” Which is simply incorrect. Your dismissal of what I wrote does not nullify the facts.

What point of yours did I just prove, that “There’s nothing you can do to improve a mac…You cannot tweak a mac because Apple won’t let you.”? Again, that’s factually incorrect.

I never said you can tweak Macs as MUCH as a Windows machine, but to state that there’s nothing you can do is just incorrect. And yes, it’s nice to be able to run Windows natively on Apple hardware. Sure, why not, when needed? That’s not a criticism. That’s a feature. Some might even call that a benefit. While you may view that as the only tweak that matters on a Mac, it’s just one of many benefits. Again, I’m not saying that Macs are more tweakable than Windows. On the other hand, if someone wants to go the Hackintosh route, I know of many people that overclock their Hackintoshes and get some amazing performance for a great price. So if you look at it that way, OSX will run on all sorts of very “tweakable” hardware if you want to.


I agreed with your prior statement on this topic, and also agree that it depends entirely on the project requirements… and yes, if you are doing large orchestral mockups, plugin count is indeed quite important. I don’t think we need to argue on that one.

Knowing someone is not the same thing as being able to speak for them. And so what if you know them? I’m happy you know them, but it doesn’t nullify the point that they (and many other professionals – not just big LA composers that you may or may not know), are using Macs for professional purposes.

That’s perfectly fine. I haven’t once said not to run PC slaves. I myself have used VE Pro on Windows with two Windows slaves and I was happy with it. If your point is that people use Windows computers professionally, I am not arguing that point. If your point is that people get great performance from their Windows machines, I’m also not arguing against that. Your point is made. I simply made the point that “the platform is irrelevant to the level of work produced. Users of both platforms are limited only by their own skills and talents.”

So what if studios don’t change computers that often? In this point I’m making here, I’m simply stating that the majority of US post houses DO use Pro Tools on Macs. And that there are many pros in the broader entertainment industry that do use them – for whatever reason. The point is that Macs are currently being used professionally, and a lot of them. Of course, Windows computers are also being used professionally. The platform does not dictate the quality of output.

I also didn’t even bother bringing up the new Mac Pro. The times I have in other threads I have strictly indicated that its use is for GPU bound needs. So of course that machine is not designed specifically for Pro Audio, since DSP for plugins on GPUs is still a long way off, so I’m also not recommending DAW users jump on the new Mac Pros unless they need the video capabilities. Please don’t lump other people’s comments in this thread on my point of view.


I certainly respect that using Windows machines “makes sense” to you. I am not criticizing you for making that choice. Other people look at this differently than you, and that doesn’t make them better or worse than you. Things simply “make sense” differently to them. Personally, I prefer to work on Macs now, after many years working mainly on Windows. But what “makes sense” to me is not something I feel the need to “impose” on anyone else. Each person should use what works best for them.

Obviously, I disagree with your reply. I ran the numbers for my own studio, and the difference is minimal in my case, and the benefits I have are worth the minor difference of budget for the clients I have. I didn’t need someone else to tell me what I should or should not run in my studio, as I wouldn’t tell you what you should or shouldn’t run in your studio. Only you know the types of projects you run, and you have calculated what works best for you. Go for it, of course. For the types of projects I do and the paying clients I have, this setup appears to be working well for me, and keep in mind I still have Windows machines and VE Pro as needed, so I’m not an all-Mac shop. I also have a few Linux machines as file servers, and I’ll use whatever the best tools I can to get the job done.

Sure it makes sense for some people to use Macs – even if you personally consider them overpriced and under-performing. To suggest that the only reason why it “makes sense” to them is because they like Apple’s icons better is simply missing all the other points I have made. If the other statements I’ve made simply boil down to preference for Apple icons, then we have a communication problem that may not be able to be solved any time soon, which is, sadly, what I suspect will be the result of this exercise. :slight_smile:

Not sure what you are referring to. I am not familiar with “cult of mac,” if you are referring to some website or article. I have not stated that Macs perform BETTER than Windows machines, and I have not stated that you can’t select your own components when building a quality Windows DAW. On the contrary. I’ve built plenty of Windows DAWs myself and they worked great.

What I’m referring to is DAWBench, which is a suite of DAW-related benchmarks that you can run on various DAW apps that give you a great yardstick to measure performance of your DAW, be it Pro Tools on Macs or Cubase on Windows, etc… Just google TAFKAT and DAWbench and you’ll see what I’m talking about. Those benchmarks, which I have run myself on current machines with current versions of DAW apps, are what I look at and trust, along with my own test projects – so I don’t rely on someone else’s numbers, speculations or opinions. And I have tested a variety of DAWs and both OSX and Windows, not to mention all my computers, which are many and varied. And as I stated, Windows performance is indeed better than Mac performance on a similar speced machine – and Windows does indeed give you more bang for the buck. I’ve said that over and over. I’m not debating that. However, the delta between Windows and Mac performance is actually smaller than ever now, and with a decent Mac, there is more than enough headroom for very complex pro audio projects at very good latencies.

In my view, the platform war is over, since the delta is reasonable, and within the margin of current gen CPU differences. Yes, you can get more mileage out of a similar-speced Windows machine… but not that much. The delta used to be 50% or more, sometimes 100% difference in the past, even worse. But in my tests on recent machines and the latest DAW apps, I’m seeing about 20%-30% max or so Windows improvement compared to Macs at average latencies for the applications and plugins I use on similar hardware. That’s not earth-shaking, and well within CPU generation margins. When you couple that with other workflow and preference issues in a studio, there is no longer a major cost/performance benefit to Windows. Yes, it’s still there, but if you make a living doing this, you’ll be spending a heck of a lot more money on plugins, libraries, other studio hardware, general business expenses, etc., than the difference between a decent Mac and a decent Windows machine for pro audio.

@Svenne – Normally I’d agree with you about the whole idea of not responding, but I really wanted to take a stab at communicating with Papi again, and try to understanding him and see if he could see my point of view, as futile as that may be. I still hold out hope that he and I can actually understand each other, although I’ll admit the chances are rather low.

As for wasting time responding, I did “check out” of this thread once already, and when I came back to the forum to catch up on news, I really, genuinely wanted to give it another good effort, without any name-calling. Yes, I could have spent my time doing something more productive and part of me is a little embarrassed for participating in this spectacle of a thread.

Anyway, re: your comments about performance, there are a lot of metrics we can look at to see what platform performs better, and I’ll admit, I never looked at loading times. That something to think about. Re: DSP benchmark, i.e.: total plugin load, etc., I refer to DAWbench to help clarify, and I use a cross-platform test project with FabFilter plugins and other goodies. Windows always comes out on top for me… but not by that much that it really makes a difference in day-to-day business. So to me, it truly boils down to that day-in day-out workflow and personal preference issue and just plain getting the job done… and for that, I prefer using Macs… So in that most important area of personal preference and workflow, I’m sure we completely agree.

uarte, I did not criticize you attempt at communicating with papi61. However, this discussion could have been a help to users who were thinking of migrating. Instead it has become a forum for trolls* that have absolutely no interest what so ever in being helpful. Only in spreading myths, misinformation and insults. It’s nice to see that you’ve begun to see the futility in trying to reason with such persons. I think you’d have better luck trying to forge a peace agreement between the US and Al Kaida (I’m not sure about the spelling).

Unfortunately, they are more than a nuisance. They have wrecked several useful discussions, by making the moderators lock them.

  • Just to be clear. I don’t call you a troll. You argue with facts, not myths.

If you’re interested in the problem with long loading times in Cubase 7.5, you’ll find a discussion here:

Thanks for the feedback, Svenne. Normally I try to avoid these types of exchanges, although I get sucked into them from time to time. :slight_smile:

With Papi61, I decided to give it a shot, despite my initial interaction with him earlier in the thread. I have read other posts of his in other threads that were helpful and insightful, so I thought perhaps there was potential to communicate with him on this topic. Let’s see how (or if) he responds, maybe we’ll be building a bridge of some kind after all? Or not?

Also, thanks for pointing out the load time issue, something I haven’t paid attention to.

In any case, I agree that this could have been a much more helpful thread, and for my part, I doubt I’ll be interacting like this much in the future. I’m ahead on deadlines today and had a little too much extra time on my hands… :open_mouth: