Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

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Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby suntower » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:02 am

Hi,

I've been using Cubase for almost 15 years now, but there are still areas of the program I am not very familiar with.

I do a lot of music with tempo changes. In live music a conductor has various techniques/gestures to give the players a heads-up when there is a tempo or sig change... essentially he telegraphs what's coming.

I find it difficult to do overdubs over this kind of situation in Cubase because your only 'cues' are the click or I guess watching the tempo track on screen... which isn't much help.

What I would like is a 'pre-click' of some sort for the upcoming tempo.

IOW: is there a way to program it so that, a beat ahead you can hear the -new- tempo... but again, a beat -before- the new tempo actually kicks in.

What I sometimes end up doing a LOT is recording an audio track of the new tempo click but this is kind of a pain for a piece with several tempi.

Solutions?

TIA,

---JC
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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby vic_france » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:00 am

I usually do it this way..
(lets say I want a 1 bar count-in before the start of the new tempo)..
I create a MIDI track, routed to a metronome sound, and record one bar of click during the first bar of the new tempo.
I then switch that MIDI track over to Linear Timebase, set Snap to "Events", then drag-copy that one bar click Part backwards, such that the end of the copied Part butts against the start of the original. (If necessary I can then delete the original, although I am more likely to want to keep it).
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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby SteveInChicago » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:36 am

Vic, that is quite slick.
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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby suntower » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:09 pm

Yeah, I've been doing something similar (well, the audio track), but as per usual, definitely not nearly as slick as your technique. Thanks.

I wish there was an 'automatic look-ahead-count-in' option for the metronome. I'm probably the only guy that would ever use it, but if I have a 'song' with 20 of these, it gets tedious... even with your technique.

Cheers,

---JC



Thanks for the tip.

vic_france wrote:I usually do it this way..
(lets say I want a 1 bar count-in before the start of the new tempo)..
I create a MIDI track, routed to a metronome sound, and record one bar of click during the first bar of the new tempo.
I then switch that MIDI track over to Linear Timebase, set Snap to "Events", then drag-copy that one bar click Part backwards, such that the end of the copied Part butts against the start of the original. (If necessary I can then delete the original, although I am more likely to want to keep it).
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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby DG » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:22 pm

I'm using Nuendo, so this may not be the same, but I just make sure that Use Record Start time is selected (Metronome settings) and then use the built in pre-count on the Transport bar.

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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby suntower » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:33 pm

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.... This is such a basic thing for any non 4 on the floor music. But to -describe- it requires one of those 'LiceCap' MOVIES. Which I HATE. Because in 2014 I shouldn't have to screw with this.

Oh.... BTW: Thanks :) :D

Cleansing breath. So... it appears that the Click Tempo -does- work as you describe with time sig changes. I can put a dummy time sig at the bar immediately before the rit. and the pre-count will click at the slow tempo. Rube Goldberg but cool.

HOWEVER, if I use your suggestion with the Pre-Count it seems to mute all tracks until recording actually begins. So I have a click, but no other music to play along with. Not ideal. IOW: Pre-Count seems to mute everything.

WHAT I want is to be able to start recording at bar 100, MM 72 with a 1 bar pre-count (starting at bar 99, MM 100) but the click is playing MM 72 -while- the rest of the tracks play back. I guess I want Pre-Count and Pre-Roll together?

AND/OR, failing that...

If the metronome could be programmed to do a special DING on beat 4 of bar 99 to telegraph to me 'Get read, here it comes!' that would also be useful.

Cheers,

---JC

DG wrote:I'm using Nuendo, so this may not be the same, but I just make sure that Use Record Start time is selected (Metronome settings) and then use the built in pre-count on the Transport bar.

DG
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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby DG » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:55 pm

suntower wrote:
Cleansing breath. So... it appears that the Click Tempo -does- work as you describe with time sig changes. I can put a dummy time sig at the bar immediately before the rit. and the pre-count will click at the slow tempo. Rube Goldberg but cool.


I've never had to put a dummy time sig in. It just works as it should.
suntower wrote:HOWEVER, if I use your suggestion with the Pre-Count it seems to mute all tracks until recording actually begins. So I have a click, but no other music to play along with. Not ideal. IOW: Pre-Count seems to mute everything.

That is correct. It is a pre-count.
suntower wrote:WHAT I want is to be able to start recording at bar 100, MM 72 with a 1 bar pre-count (starting at bar 99, MM 100) but the click is playing MM 72 -while- the rest of the tracks play back. I guess I want Pre-Count and Pre-Roll together?

That makes no sense to me. What would be the benefit of hearing music playing at a different tempo from the click? For a start your click wouldn't start at bar 99, or if it did, it would be fewer than the number of beats in the time sig.

I can see the point of independent tempo tracks for overlapping cues, but I think that your suggestion would cause more problems than it would solve.

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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby suntower » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:17 pm

Since this is a public forum, wWhen I write these little rants they are directed to SB. I dunno why people don't get that sometimes, but regardless, thanks for your thoughtful replies.

Of course, you're right about the start of 'bar 99'. I HATE all this 'explaining' crap and sometimes go too quickly. I get frustrated when this sort of -very- common 'human' task isn't addressed. Part of it, I suppose, is the fear that there are only about 500 people on the planet that still use notation.

I respectfully disagree with some of your points. It's -very- useful to have music playing @ one tempo with a click at the upcoming tempo. I don't need (or want) a completely separate tempo track just to do this sort of common task. That would only -add- to the complexity.

I just want the pre-count to work at the new tempo whilst the music plays back at the pre rit. tempo so I can prepare the players for the new (slower) tempo. A conductor does this with one swipe of the baton (on beat 4 he'd prep them for the new tempo.) But with Cubase unless you can physically see the computer screen during playback, you have no way to know what is coming next... unless you use Vic's trick.

I just want a way to do Vic's trick -without- having to go through those steps. If pre-count and pre-roll could work together, it might be a real timesaver. (Well, for me anyway.)

Thanks again.

---JC


DG wrote:
suntower wrote:
Cleansing breath. So... it appears that the Click Tempo -does- work as you describe with time sig changes. I can put a dummy time sig at the bar immediately before the rit. and the pre-count will click at the slow tempo. Rube Goldberg but cool.


I've never had to put a dummy time sig in. It just works as it should.
suntower wrote:HOWEVER, if I use your suggestion with the Pre-Count it seems to mute all tracks until recording actually begins. So I have a click, but no other music to play along with. Not ideal. IOW: Pre-Count seems to mute everything.

That is correct. It is a pre-count.
suntower wrote:WHAT I want is to be able to start recording at bar 100, MM 72 with a 1 bar pre-count (starting at bar 99, MM 100) but the click is playing MM 72 -while- the rest of the tracks play back. I guess I want Pre-Count and Pre-Roll together?

That makes no sense to me. What would be the benefit of hearing music playing at a different tempo from the click? For a start your click wouldn't start at bar 99, or if it did, it would be fewer than the number of beats in the time sig.

I can see the point of independent tempo tracks for overlapping cues, but I think that your suggestion would cause more problems than it would solve.

DG
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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby alexis » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:18 am

vic_france wrote:I usually do it this way..
(lets say I want a 1 bar count-in before the start of the new tempo)..
I create a MIDI track, routed to a metronome sound, and record one bar of click during the first bar of the new tempo.
I then switch that MIDI track over to Linear Timebase, set Snap to "Events", then drag-copy that one bar click Part backwards, such that the end of the copied Part butts against the start of the original. (If necessary I can then delete the original, although I am more likely to want to keep it).


Thanks, as always, vic_france.

(Is there a one-click macro to type out that above phrase?? :D )
Alexis

One way to get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here.
- A more detailed explanation for how to get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here!
- And here for MIDI

Some ways to render virtual instruments to audio here.

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CubaseTutorial.net - very nice collection of instructional youtubes

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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby Denicio » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:10 pm

The timing of this question could not be better for me! I have an artist that we are doing Preproduction on currently. This one ballad has the verses and choruses at 96 BPM and the bridge section at ...wait for it... 133 BPM. No ramp up just BAM!

I was gonna go OLD school for a metronome and simply take a small sample of a side stick. Edit it tight and copy and paste it every quarter note. I'd have two 'audio' click tracks done this way. Its a bit of work but its only a 4 minute song.
This way I could mute the old tempo and have the new tempo ready for the bridge section...and vice versa once they wind out of the Bridge back into the verses.

Its old school...a bit of a PITA...but it works every time!
I was hoping to come here and someone have a simple way of doing it, but it appears we all have our work arounds.

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Re: Possible Noob Question: Tempo Change Click Count In?

Postby Denicio » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:49 pm

After careful consideration and a brain fart it occurred to me that going old school as I proposed still wont fix this issue in the song I am about to start. The precount would be in the old tempo. Oh well, thank goodness the drums will be cut on my Vdrums and triggering Steven Slate drums....so I have access to midi quantize!!!
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