Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

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Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby drorh4 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:44 pm

I worked for years on Pro Tools. Now days, turned myself to Neundo (from obvious reasons) - but I still miss some stuff that I cant figure out in Neundo even though I know there must be the same option.

The problem :
In Protools I used to make really fast Automation work on the main track with the mouse. For example, If I had a recording with way to much low end and volume, by click I could choose the whole Audio clip, then turn it to HCF or VOLUME and just "turn it down" as straight line. Automation dots was made automatically.

In Nuendo I need to - Open the auto tracks, make sure the HCF is automated, then make 4(!) dots and struggle the mouse to make a straight line. it never goes straight, and it is really time consuming and a sure carpal tunnel motivator.

Can I make this process any faster and more accurate in Nuendo?

Another obvious question on a silly matter.
- Why when doing cntrl+option+N, I can make only audio tracks? Isnt it much more reasonable to give me the option to make all kind of tracks at the same time? Why I need to make Audio and then midi and then group and so on...?

thank u very much
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby Helidream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:37 pm

You can change the volume of an entire audio clip with the mouse, using the central white handle at the upper end of the clip.

This should answer one of your concern. This volume change is dedicated to the audio clip.

You can as well draw a volume envelope on the audio clip, using the pencil tool. This still is internal to the audio clip and is a complement to the global level of the clip fixed with the white handle.

You can see that Nuendo did start to implement an object oriented clip, in the futur we can hope to see more (SB did talk about that in a blog according to another user), like the possibility to add EQ and effects to a clip, independently from the track settings. Then we'll have the power of Samplitude and Sequoia inside Nuendo.

You could as well define a track volume for the entire track, using the function "create initial parameter event" in the automation panel (F6). Just select your initial volume with the fader and select this function.
This will put the same volume on all the track, so that when you are in automation read on this track, the level cannot be accidentally changed. This initial volume will be used as well when punching out from an automation pass, if you are not using the "virgin territory" option. For music i prefer the classical non virgin territory method. I'm not used to virgin territory, but this is certainly interesting for post.

Nuendo is very powerful concerning the automation. You have about the same power and functions (and even more thanks to the screen editing possibility) than on the largest analog consoles of the eighties. If you read the manual a bit, you will discover that impressive automation power.
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby drorh4 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:28 am

Thank you for the answer but I was talking apples and u answered oranges. ;)

I aware of the clip gain option in Nuendo. but I need clip AUTOMATION on the spot and accurate.
not only on volume but on parameters of filtering and EQ and sends, and it should be fast with one move.

there must be an option, I don't understand how people work without it.
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby distante » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:04 am

maybe a caption/gif/video to understand better what are you saying?
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby drorh4 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:13 am

I will be happy to do so. but how?
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby ju » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:31 am

Hi. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing : in PT you use write auto to selection for eq or else, in latch mode with latch prime in stop, right ?
If so, the best way IMHO to do the same on nuendo is to work with the preview mode (100 log, no need for a giant-Ilok-icon-console;-)) and the fill loop option.
Works like a charm, absolutely no need to open auto tracks, which can quickly become a mess when you're automating a whole bunch of params in one shot...

I you're talking auto completely off-line by hand/mouse, you have the line tool, which is able to draw quick & clean auto break points.

Not sure it covers what you're asking for though...
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby drorh4 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:54 am

I tried the "preview" but didnt get it. what I supposed to see and where? on the track itself?
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby ju » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:01 pm

Well. It's more about what you're supposed to hear. Actually you won't see much in that paradigm...
(You could use the "show writing auto" option though)

Anyway, once on W mode :
- select a cue
- make the range on that cue ("p" by default)
- hit preview
- hit loop (fill mode)
- do what you have to (you can use preview suspend for comparison)
- hit punch when you're done
- beer time (or next cue), no need to see actual auto lines...

Of course, this is just one particular way to use preview, and it might not address exactly what you're trying to accomplish (if you absolutely need to move break points by hand really precisely, for instance)
Hope this helps.
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby Norbury Brook » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:57 pm

If I wanted to change the low end on a section of audio which is something I do regularly on vocal takes for plosives, is to just select the section and Ctrl + right click to bring up the plugins menu, then find the eq of my choice, hit preview if you want to hear what it's going to sound like first, then hit process.

It's all done and if you want to change later at any time you just go back into the offline process history and you can undo or redo etc etc.



Off line processing is very handy :D


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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby Puma0382 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:15 pm

Unsure why responses thus far point to myriad roundabout methods to try and achieve what the OP was asking about - which was 'working with automation'... ;)

Anyway, fwiw, here's my response (Nuendo applicable too). The 'problem' is noted:-
viewtopic.php?f=182&t=54627

And in amongst there, something you might like to try in the meantime:-
viewtopic.php?p=336221#p336221

Ultimately, improvements (more elegant/efficient workflow regarding this specific aspect of automation) sought from SB.

Cheers,
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby ju » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:50 pm

Don't see how it's far out to use preview when the question was "working with automation" !
Automation is supposed to be used with a control surface in my opinion, as it's designed for it.
Mouse IS a workaround, actually, for those who don't have control surfaces... IMHO of course.
But that's why I was asking if the idea was to use automation via all the regular modes from automation panel or simple mouse-keyboard automation drawing.
Anyway, I think there are indeed lots of options to choose from.
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby drorh4 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:24 pm

Thank u all.

I was happy to see in the first link that I'm not alone with this basic need.

Norbury Brook wrote:If I wanted to change the low end on a section of audio which is something I do regularly on vocal takes for plosives, is to just select the section and Ctrl + right click to bring up the plugins menu, then find the eq of my choice, hit preview if you want to hear what it's going to sound like first, then hit process.

MC


OK now that is reallly time consuming. Pandora box of troubles. working with 300 tracks with a director with endless tweaks need to be done on the spot. now. to the next morning...I dont want to print every single change, I have to many decisions to take already.

ju wrote:Don't see how it's far out to use preview when the question was "working with automation" !
Automation is supposed to be used with a control surface in my opinion, as it's designed for it.
Mouse IS a workaround, actually, for those who don't have control surfaces... IMHO of course.


I couldn't get the point of the preview. how does it gives me the fast accurate touch?
I disagree with the "automation=control surface" - I have control surface for mixing purposes. In these days there is more approach towards edit with pre mixed stuff. and do it fast so the client will have it Monday morning.
I hate PT, but damn I work fast on it. And for lots of stuff I need fast accurate automation, mostly for the sound design process, not for the mixing where I need really different approach.

There is a reason why PT or Logic or Samplitude or DP or even F§"$%kn Final cut has the "on event grabber" automation. It is so basic need.

Still looking for the answer. I think the closest thing is to use the "line" to make it fast and accurate enough. but still, without seeing any numbers or FQs or dBs. Just draw line and hope for the best. :?
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby Oliver.Lucas » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:35 am

For the 100 millionth time: Nuendo needs a simple way for object oriented (clip based) real time EQ!
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby Norbury Brook » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:34 pm

drorh4 wrote:Thank u all.

I was happy to see in the first link that I'm not alone with this basic need.

Norbury Brook wrote:If I wanted to change the low end on a section of audio which is something I do regularly on vocal takes for plosives, is to just select the section and Ctrl + right click to bring up the plugins menu, then find the eq of my choice, hit preview if you want to hear what it's going to sound like first, then hit process.

MC


OK now that is reallly time consuming. Pandora box of troubles. working with 300 tracks with a director with endless tweaks need to be done on the spot. now. to the next morning...I dont want to print every single change, I have to many decisions to take already.

ju wrote:Don't see how it's far out to use preview when the question was "working with automation" !
Automation is supposed to be used with a control surface in my opinion, as it's designed for it.
Mouse IS a workaround, actually, for those who don't have control surfaces... IMHO of course.


I couldn't get the point of the preview. how does it gives me the fast accurate touch?
I disagree with the "automation=control surface" - I have control surface for mixing purposes. In these days there is more approach towards edit with pre mixed stuff. and do it fast so the client will have it Monday morning.
I hate PT, but damn I work fast on it. And for lots of stuff I need fast accurate automation, mostly for the sound design process, not for the mixing where I need really different approach.

There is a reason why PT or Logic or Samplitude or DP or even F§"$%kn Final cut has the "on event grabber" automation. It is so basic need.

Still looking for the answer. I think the closest thing is to use the "line" to make it fast and accurate enough. but still, without seeing any numbers or FQs or dBs. Just draw line and hope for the best. :?



point taken, but if you need to do it on 300 tracks then just highlight the selection on the 300 tracks and it's done in one step, surely that's quicker than automating an EQ over 300 tracks. If you use off line processing it's actually a lot quicker than it is to explain in words.

Just pointing it out as it's an area pro tools users have a blind spot to as it's only recently they've been able to work per clip, hence not directly answering the automation question. If you've come from another software and are used to doing something one way , to me it would make sense to find out the best way to do it in your new software, and that quite often ISN'T by doing it the same.

so to answer the question; is it as fast? it can be if you change your workflow.

I will add that I come from the music mixing/composing world and NOT as a film sound mixer so my usage is probably very different from yours so apologies if we're at cross purposes.

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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby drorh4 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:36 pm

If you've come from another software and are used to doing something one way , to me it would make sense to find out the best way to do it in your new software, and that quite often ISN'T by doing it the same.

so to answer the question; is it as fast? it can be if you change your workflow.


Very True! but still. this way is very popular among others and it is a must.


I will add that I come from the music mixing/composing world and NOT as a film sound mixer so my usage is probably very different from yours so apologies if we're at cross purposes.


Working a lot as a composer and musical director-producer. The work is really different.
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby C.LYDE101 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:27 pm

I checked the date - I thought I may slipped to an old post. Simply reproducing your 1st example is quick 2 click with Cubase.
Maybe I'm missing something?
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby Sunshy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:19 pm

Here is one alternative way to the trim mode/fill loop:

viewtopic.php?f=181&t=38182&hilit=ninja
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby likelystory » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:41 pm

A couple of things which will speed this process up.

- Open your automation panel and under settings make sure reveal parameter on write and show waveform data on tracks is enabled. This means that any parameter that is written will be revealed in automation lanes without having to search through and you can also see your waveform data underneath the automation.

- If you want to "draw" a quick volume change over the section you can use the line tool rather than the pencil tool which will create the 4 automation points.

- You can quickly use the info line to set automation data. When entering numbers you can either use enter for relative change or ctrl + enter for absolute change. This makes it very easy for example to rubber band some automation points and either adjust them relative to each other or set them all to a specific value.
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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby Norbury Brook » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:49 am

likelystory wrote:A couple of things which will speed this process up.

- Open your automation panel and under settings make sure reveal parameter on write and show waveform data on tracks is enabled. This means that any parameter that is written will be revealed in automation lanes without having to search through and you can also see your waveform data underneath the automation.

- If you want to "draw" a quick volume change over the section you can use the line tool rather than the pencil tool which will create the 4 automation points.

- You can quickly use the info line to set automation data. When entering numbers you can either use enter for relative change or ctrl + enter for absolute change. This makes it very easy for example to rubber band some automation points and either adjust them relative to each other or set them all to a specific value.



Thanks, yet again I've learned things I didn't know after using this program since version 1.0

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Re: Working with Automation. can it be fast as in PT?

Postby Puma0382 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:50 pm

likelystory wrote:
- If you want to "draw" a quick volume change over the section you can use the line tool rather than the pencil tool which will create the 4 automation points.

- You can quickly use the info line to set automation data. When entering numbers you can either use enter for relative change or ctrl + enter for absolute change. This makes it very easy for example to rubber band some automation points and either adjust them relative to each other or set them all to a specific value.

Thanks for these two, too..!!

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