Cubase and 4K monitors?

Dante Via…hmmmm, not a wealth of information but it looks interesting Pat :slight_smile:

http://www.audioprointernational.com/news/read/infocomm-2014-dante-via-coming-in-q4/07206

I wonder if they intend to compete with Vienna Ensemble Pro :bulb:

Dante is to hardware what VEP is to software. They both bring Ethernet networking, but work at different layers.

A little back-story that may be interesting.
In January 2014, I emailed a suggestion to Audinate stating:

You have the Dante Virtual Soundcard system host software, but have you
thought about producing Dante client software that would allow a computer
with one or more existing Firewire/USB/PCIe sound devices, each with their
own ASIO drivers, to be unified and controlled by Dante?

The client could even run on the Dante host system, integrating its legacy
devices.

I suspect you are looking at your clients as being the ‘big’ operators, and
most of your licencees are only producing devices with large I/O arsenals.

However, there is a huge small operator market from the
home/bedroom/hobby/small studio sector that could be on Dante NOW, and
while keeping their current devices, just expand as their requirements ments
grow. This is what AoIP promises.

Many of these people are frustrated that they cannot expand their current
I/O capabilities, either on the local machine or remotely, without having to
replace perfectly functioning hardware.

On 24/01/2014, Aidan Williams, the CTO for Audinate, replied:

Thanks for your suggestion! We are always looking to make Dante more widely
used.

I’ve passed your email on to our product management and I’m sure it will
help to influence what products and features we work on next.

After I came across Via on 25/06/2014, I replied:

Looks like my idea has become Dante Via?

to which Aidan replied:

As you can imagine, we have been working on Dante Via for long time before the launch last week at Infocommm. Your email (and others like it) gave us confidence that the features we planned to provide in Dante Via would be useful to a wide range of people.

Since Via will not be released until December this year, I have a suspicion that all is not quite the timing Aidan suggests. We are only talking about a Dante protocol wrapper for an ASIO driver here, both of which Audinate have prior experience with, so I would suspect that there would only be a few months for development, if that, and a lot of testing! Do the date maths.

Hmmmm!

#2 4K on way!
After having my 4K for a month, we are now getting a Samsung 48" HU8500W for my wife.

I have been progressively moving mine further away from me as the artefacts from the font-scaling technology were noticeable. The distance is now 75cm face-to-screen, which is about right, though 80cm might be perfect for a 55".

48" would be about the perfect size for monitor/TV convergence, if you are not going to watch TV from a large distance away. To have the same size pixel pitch as on the 30", a 4K would have to be 45", so the 48"'s pixel pitch is only 6% larger.

Small 4K displays
Given that Cubase, along with many other desktop programs) relies on high UI information density, and will likely be that, notwithstanding touch-enabling (still lots of non-touch info to look at) for a while, anything much smaller than 48" is going to cramp the visuals.

Smaller size 4Ks will tend to favour visual editing, but there is still the issue with non-scaling text being too small. Having never run displays at anything other than their native resolution (mainly because non-scaling text looked terrible), I have never examined the effect of scaling everything up had on the look of pictures in dialog boxes and non-auto-scaling programs). Any comments?

Just for Windows users, there is the capacity to change the sizes of individual UI elements, like window captions bars, menu text et al, rather than just proportionally scaling everything up.

Glasses
As for glasses, the less range in focal lengths, the better. I find my dual range ones OK, so I can still look down at my desk to read, but the triple range ones require head movement, and not just eyes, to read the full height. Compared to scrolling pages on a smaller screen, it is not a big deal.

I originally got the triple range because I got fed up with having to take them off just so I could clearly see people who came to my desk to talk, but since I am in my home-office basically full time now, the duals are in use full time.

30Hz usage
While for me, 30Hz is only temporary until HDMI 2.0 video cards are out, I have not found 30Hz tiring, and I am using the 4K as the main monitor (at 55", could it be anything but that?) for 8 to 12 hours a day, and a TV for some hours more.

I have not used it with Cubase for any real work yet, but it is fantastic for everything else. It is nice to have enough room to have space for programs like MYOB to take up half the screen, and still have room to have online banking open for reconciliation.

Compact computing = BRIX
Given the satisfaction with 30Hz, and since we needed to get another video card for the 48", plus my wife’s computer was basically a huge box filled with air and far more computing power than was required, we decided instead to replace it with a Gigabyte BRIX GV-BXi3H-4010, which has 4K@30Hz built in. Basically, a video card would have set us back AU$160, whereas the BRIX+4GB RAM was AU$425, so it was a no brainer.

It is so tiny (114x108x43mm/4.5x4.3x1.7"), mainly because it is limited in what can be modified, namely only RAM (up to 2x8GB) and mSATA and SATA III drives, much like a laptop! And it turns on and off so fast (no POST screens). Unfortunately, such miniaturisation is not plausible for my computing requirements.


I know it is another one of my long rants, but I hope it gives some help, and some considerations to think about, for those who might be considering taking on 4K.

The 48" is in place. Looks a good size for combined monitor and TV use. I would recommend it as the best balance of price, pixel size, range of viewing angles and deskspace.

Right on Pat :sunglasses: … still kicking the idea of if I need another monitor…one larger than my fairly new 3 24" wide screens that is.

When I tie in my home video surveilence sytem into my music room, I may want to do something different. But my innitial idea is to just tie the surveilance systems DVR into my home studio’s 4-port KVM VGA switch, and give me an option as if it was just another music machine. That’ll be great for when I keep hearing ‘noises’ when I have on my headphones :nerd:

I still have my two 23" FHD touchscreens, so I have something that I can use for such miscellaneous inputs.

If you are composing for video, even with a 4K, it may be wise to keep a smaller screen on which you can run Cubase’s video window at full frames, therefore bypassing the need for the video card to handle high speed 4K when only part of the screen would actually need it.

For your DVR, you can run it into the smaller screen via your switcher, and so keep Cubase up front and centre even when the phantom noises encroach!

You may notice that many TVs have Picture-In-Picture (PIP). However, at least with the Samsungs and I suspect others, the TV tuner MUST be one of the two sources, and only at a maximum of FHD, so it is disabled if using a 4K source.

For those who get a 4K display but have a card that only supplies 3840x2160@30Hz, there is something strange that can happen that gives some odd multi-colour tinges to text.

To ensure text is OK, make sure the refresh rate for the monitor is set to 30Hz in the computer, by:

  1. Open the Screen Resolution dialog
    _ by right-clicking an open area of the desktop and selecting the Screen resolution option.

  2. Open the dialog for the monitor and video combo
    _ by clicking the Advanced settings link.

  3. Open the Monitor panel
    _ by clicking the Monitor tab.

  4. Set the correct rate
    _ by selecting the 30 Hertz option from the Screen refresh rate list.


    It defaults to 60Hz because the input is capable of it due to being HDMI2.0, but the card is actually not capable of sending it out, so the TV thinks it is getting 60Hz, but only getting 30Hz, so the oddities may be due to aliasing. However, changing it to 30Hz makes the text not look kaleidoscopic. Changing it to 60Hz definitely produces the effect.

The other benefit of setting it to 30Hz is that the Entertain option becomes available on the Picture Mode list in the Picture settings for the Samsung TV. I think that the Entertain mode is the lower-latency game mode, with some of the delaying picture processing effects disabled.

Looks like the TV-video-computer talk-fest produced a ‘failure to communicate’ (as per Cool Hand Luke).

If anyone has any questions about this, please ask. I had no idea why the colour effects suddenly disappeared one day and just as suddenly reappeared today when I tried out a new spatial arrangement in the Screen Resolution dialog. Now I have the reproducible process with which it all makes sense!

I have a 22" 1920x1080 which I purposely downsized to as I like the high ppi and small screen for coding up close.

However with Cubase projects getting more complex I’m considering a 4k monitor.
UP2414Q 24" 4k can be had quite reasonable.
Is this just entirely too small for Cubase 4k?
Can Cubase scale properly in Win 8?

This guy posted a comparison of 1920 vs 4k: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/psychlist1972/10500180314/

Otherwise I am considering a U2913WM 29"

Anyone have experience with this one?
I wonder how the vertical real estate is missed it’s basically like 2 monitors.

Try almost doubling (1.83) the distance away from your 22", and see if you still think you can read it easily enough, and be able to accurately click the mouse.

In what way? Cubase is a desktop program and does not scale at all (that is, a button will always have the same pixel dimensions), but just can show more info if there are more pixels. Text and lines in Cubase will be the clearest if you use the native resolution.

Screen display height will be just a tiny bit larger than your 22", and a 1/3 wider.

A 4K will be equivalent to three of them.

Thanks for the response Patanjali.
I guess I should consider a 32+ 4k to really benefit in Cubase?
Doing guitars or outboard requires distance.
I guess ultimately a 2nd wireless touchscreen is the way.

Cubase iC Pro! Only way to get a proper cue mixer (vertical side-by-side sliders) on-screen.

They work well. You can use several devices at once, with different info on each, even up to four cue mixes.

Devices smaller than an iPad mini will give you the single function display, otherwise you get the multi-part display. See the pics on the above page. Note that this means 7" Android devices will give the single function display.

I’m considering purchasing a 4k TV to replace my current setup. I’ve attempted to arrange my two Dell 30" (2560x 1600) monitors in some configuration that would be satisfying for my workflow and be somewhat ergonomically, but ended up being a little frustrated. This is partly due to the Cubase’s current windows management limitations and my requirement to mostly work in the arrange window and the score editor - which unfortunately is “imprisoned” within the confines of the main interface project window. I’ve tried vertically stacking the two screens, and placing them side by side (both horizontally and vertically), but neither arrangement has been ultimately satisfying as the bezel width of the combined monitors breaks the contiguous flow.

I think a single 45"-50" 4k screen would be just right for my purposes, by allowing plenty of screen real estate with an acceptable font size. I may mount the TV on the wall (its a bedroom, not a studio), on an adjustable arm to be flexible with angle and placement.

If anyone can recommend a TV that is under around $1500 and has HDMI 2.0 please chime in. I’d prefer Displayport support, but I dont think there are any DP models, such as Panasonic that are available in Australia; importing costs are also usually prohibitive. I don’t need 3D or Smart TV features, but it seems that’s a default inclusion nowadays. The Seiki 50" could be suitable, but as it only supports HDMI 1.4b (30hz); I would rather a model that is a little more future proof by including HDMI 2.0 (60hz) ports such as the Samsung and LG. Any other brands, models for recommendation? Please let me know.

Tom

4K in Australia has been going through a dramatic price drop very recently.

My Samsung UA55HU9000W 55" was originally $4400 at the end of June 2014, dropped to $3600 within a month (I got 120% of the difference refunded due to the retailer’s price guarantee), but it is now $2700.

The Samsung HU7000 is a 50" 4K (no 3D but not sure if HDMI2.0) for $1200+, and the TCL U40E5691FDS 40" (3D but HDMI1.4+ and no idea of quality) for $700+.

My wife’s UA48HU8500W (3D and HDMI2.0) is now $1600, and is the one I would heartily recommend as the perfect size/quality/facilities for converged TV/computer use.

Note the very latest ones seem to have 3 year warranties, whereas we paid extra to extend our original 1 year to 3.


Just reiterating what I wrote previously, a HDMI 2.0 capable TV will tell your computer that it can handle 60Hz, but none of the cheaper video cards handle that yet (nVidia’s GTX 970/980 does), so likely you will need to set your computer output to 30Hz. Neither of us has noticed any issues with 30Hz inputs, but then we don’t game.

I have had Dell 30"s in many spatial combinations ( 2 horizontal, 2 vertical, 3 horizontal - sides turned in, 4 in inverted T) and I have found it always better to be able to put my primary information front and centre, with lesser info to the sides.

4K gives you twice as many pixels as a 30", so if you are satisfied with the number of pixels on your two 30"s, then 4K will be OK. But the ratio is 16:9 rather than your current 32:10, which may serve you better if you are using the arranger and score windows over each other.

However, while doing some php programming, my wife noticed that I still had a lot of overlapping windows, so I joked that I obviously needed to get another 4K for each side of me! There was a reason I had 4 x 30"!

Thanks for the replies Pantanjali. Yes I think a 16:9 aspect ratio would be fine for my purposes. I may decide to keep one (or more) of the 30" or another of my smaller monitors to the side. There are some advantages to that, especially as they can be independently angled and positioned. I also like the idea of using a monitor utility such as GridMove to be able to create virtual independent window spaces - being able to maximize a window in its own assigned space seems like a good feature - much like Cubase’s workspaces but for other programs as well.

I’ll look into the Samsung. Did you also manage to have a look at the LG 49UB850T prior to buying the 48"? It’s currently selling for AU$1,520 on ebay and from all reports it does full chroma 4:4:4 at 60hz with the NVDIA GTX 900 series cards. This is not really an issue for me currently, as I’m using a Dell laptop without HDMI 2.0 (or emulation) - but just a consideration for possible future upgrades. I’m assuming that 30hz is quite okay, and without too much lag or flicker. I don’t game, so that’s not an issue.

When I had the 30"s, for non-DAW use, I found the Windows keyboard shortcuts for window positioning extremely time-saving, and would regularly put two windows side-by-side in each screen.

However, two things I find with 4K are:
a) 2 windows side-by-side just give too much width to each window, so 3 wide was better (especially considering 3840 is 1.5 x 2560!).
b) The large screen area makes windows butted together into one big mass of information, so a little gap between them (on my darkish background) made each more distinguishable.

Windows’ shortcuts do not cater for other than half-screen and no gaps, so I went on the hunt for a new utility to set window positions. While I remember there were some programs that set up grids, I wanted to be able to decide on a per window basis, rather than a set-of-windows basis. I found some keyboard shortcut programs, but they involved learning another cryptic programming paradigm, which usually means a lot of trial and error, just to get the commands right, let alone optimising window positions.

I came a cross a fairly simple free utility called WinDock, where you specify window positions (in screen %) and whether they are activated by dragging the window to a corner, a section of an edge, or an area of a screen. I had thought that having key-commands would be better, but since one needs to select a window for that first, dragging afterwards isn’t all that much extra.

It was the first viable one I looked at. However, despite having an IPS screen, all reviews (of more than just rehashing the brochures!) marked it down for poor quality pictures.

While that might not be a real issue for DAWs, a quality TV was an important consideration for me, so the fact that it couldn’t be adjusted to give reasonably accurate pictures was a negative.

While many review sites are a bit of a whitewash, there are still sites that do in-depth reviews of TVs, and run all the tests, and even give the settings for each with which they got the best results, which is fairly essential as the defaults on all TVs are just too in-your-face for any sort of real-world use.

Windock looks like a very useful utility - I’ll give it a try once I get a 4K screen. Its a shame that there seems to be virtually no 40-50 inch TVs with Displayport. With regard to Panasonic, currently only the larger and more expensive models include the port. Maybe closer toward Christmas we’ll see a few more options across all the brands available on the Australian market.

At least nVidia has released the GTX 980/970 high-end cards with HDMI 2.0, but the GigaByte ones are $800 here, and need 165W just for them.

Hopefully, they get round to releasing much cheaper ones, and with several HDMI ports, though DP-HDMI adapters work well enough.