Future Nuendo DAW

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Future Nuendo DAW

Postby PauloMedeira » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:21 pm

HI !

these are a few suggestions for the developers:

- ram session buffering ( just like protools 10 )
- better graphic clip/segment controls , like gain. and fades ( just like in protools 10 )
- gpu co-processing for audio engine in nuendo ( an alternative to hardware dsps )
- gpu co-processing for vst4 plugins ( an alternative to hardware dsps )
- gpu co-processing for graphic interface ( an alternative to hardware dsps )
- better sound quality in audio engine on mixdowns.
-64 bit floating resolution processing audio engine gpu co-processed
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Big K » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:41 pm

- ram session buffering ( just like protools 10 )
What does it do?

- better graphic clip/segment controls , like gain. and fades ( just like in protools 10 )
They work on it... maybe not Potools 10 style, though ( at least I hope )

- gpu co-processing for audio engine in nuendo ( an alternative to hardware dsps )
What does it do?

- gpu co-processing for vst4 plugins ( an alternative to hardware dsps )
What does it do?

- gpu co-processing for graphic interface ( an alternative to hardware dsps )
What does it do?

- better sound quality in audio engine on mixdowns.
I don't expect huge improvments anymore... rather a collection of agreeable colorations
matching some excellent consoles or outboard gear.

-64 bit floating resolution processing audio engine gpu co-processed
What could 64 do ( in our practical studio world ) that 32 doesn't provide, already?


I am not saying that your suggestions would be questionable in any way,
but I truly have no idea what this gpu thing brings. I need some information about it...

Cheers, Big K

Oh, your UR28M is a nice little machine that has great features and sound for its 400 Euro price tag, but it is not on the Olympus.. ;-) I see a little headroom for sound improvement there, over a 64bit float audio engine...
JK!

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby DG » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:18 pm

Big K wrote:- ram session buffering ( just like protools 10 )
What does it do?

In my case it would mean that I don't have to stream mixing sessions from 3 drives, and playback would be instantaneous, rather than having to wait for all the drives to catch up.

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Bassman » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:04 pm

Big K wrote:Oh, your UR28M is a nice little machine that has great features and sound for its 400 Euro price tag, but it is not on the Olympus.. ;-) I see a little headroom for sound improvement there, over a 64bit float audio engine...


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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Lydiot » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:01 pm

PauloMedeira wrote:HI !

these are a few suggestions for the developers:

- ram session buffering ( just like protools 10 )
- better graphic clip/segment controls , like gain. and fades ( just like in protools 10 )
- gpu co-processing for audio engine in nuendo ( an alternative to hardware dsps )
- gpu co-processing for vst4 plugins ( an alternative to hardware dsps )
- gpu co-processing for graphic interface ( an alternative to hardware dsps )
- better sound quality in audio engine on mixdowns.
-64 bit floating resolution processing audio engine gpu co-processed


If I may add my 2 cents:

- I agree that Ram playback might be cool.

- Changing clip gain? Yeah, maybe, but now we're really talking pre-automation automation. I'm not sure I trust that this will be implemented properly (sorry Steinberg) so I can live without it... just my personal opinion...

- GPU co-processing might be cool for some things, but once again, I see great possibility for things getting tremendously screwed up by this. So the question is if it's worth the extra risk while the regular CPUs are getting much faster anyways(?)....

- I've heard no problems with sound quality in "audio engine mixdowns". No idea what you're talking about. Compared to what really?

- 64bit float for audio processing on the GPU? Why? Seems completely unnecessary to me....
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Big K » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:33 am

DG wrote:
Big K wrote:- ram session buffering ( just like protools 10 )
What does it do?

In my case it would mean that I don't have to stream mixing sessions from 3 drives, and playback would be instantaneous, rather than having to wait for all the drives to catch up.

DG


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not a "many tracks" guy..lol... but I know, some have to be and I see some advantage here for you.
But what happens when you are struck by a sudden power outage? Isn't your RAM-memory lost, then, with all that has not yet been stored on a HDD??

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Woodcrest Studio » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:17 am

Big K wrote:
DG wrote:
Big K wrote:- ram session buffering ( just like protools 10 )
What does it do?

In my case it would mean that I don't have to stream mixing sessions from 3 drives, and playback would be instantaneous, rather than having to wait for all the drives to catch up.

DG


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not a "many tracks" guy..lol... but I know, some have to be and I see some advantage here for you.
But what happens when you are struck by a sudden power outage? Isn't your RAM-memory lost, then, with all that has not yet been stored on a HDD??

Big K



That would depend on what was actually being cached in the ram. If you are loading sample libraries for instance and you lose power, the sample libraries stay intact. The same would go for recorded audio as the recorded audio stored on hard disc would be loaded into ram.
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby DG » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:40 am

Big K wrote:
DG wrote:
Big K wrote:- ram session buffering ( just like protools 10 )
What does it do?

In my case it would mean that I don't have to stream mixing sessions from 3 drives, and playback would be instantaneous, rather than having to wait for all the drives to catch up.

DG


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not a "many tracks" guy..lol... but I know, some have to be and I see some advantage here for you.
But what happens when you are struck by a sudden power outage? Isn't your RAM-memory lost, then, with all that has not yet been stored on a HDD??

Big K

AFAIK everything is stored on the hard drive anyway. It's only loaded into RAM for streaming.

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Big K » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:19 pm

Thanks. .... I see...
I have no need for that, but good to know.
For the time being, I would rather go for: never change a running system...lol...
Call me old fashioned...

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby DG » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:11 pm

Big K wrote:Thanks. .... I see...
I have no need for that, but good to know.
For the time being, I would rather go for: never change a running system...lol...
Call me old fashioned...

Big K...

That's why I'm still on Nuendo 4. ;)

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Big K » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:50 pm

Can't say anything against N5.5.1 64bit. Since SB got QT working in win7 64 bit I am smiling wide.
No crashes, no problems...most of my plugs and software/VSTi work very well, no trouble when safeing ...

Maybe you should treat your systems like a beloved plant. Talk to it and thank it when it has worked reliably
for a whole day and say nighty-night when you go home, ( but rather not water it...lol ..).
Those crates do have a soul... nevertheless some can be real bus tarts ....
m2c after 37 years in electronics ;-)

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby PauloMedeira » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:38 pm

the audio guys should see what´s been made by the video guys.....
the improvements of GPU co processing using Open CL and/or CUDA are huge....
several HD video tracks in realtime on premiere ( usning CUDA )
also on final cut pro X using open CL ( no confusing with open GL )
video is much more processing intensive than audio.... in realtime.... i guess.....
that´s why many things have to be rendered first.....
afraid of messing around with new code ?.....
i dont think so.... the graphic cards are much more powerfull than any cpu nowadays......
even universal audio UAD1 is a gpu.......
combining both processing power could rival the dsp / cpu aternative , like protools HD TDM......

Using the ram as a virtual SSD.... and using the standard hardisk and/or NAS, on the background as mirrior and final storage....
would be great..... protools 10 HD has it and its a very good idea not just for the speed , but also to be able to work with a main NAS storage system, with many nuendos and cubases......


cheers,

PM
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby DG » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:13 pm

Big K wrote:Can't say anything against N5.5.1 64bit. Since SB got QT working in win7 64 bit I am smiling wide.
No crashes, no problems...most of my plugs and software/VSTi work very well, no trouble when safeing ...

Big K

And that's the difference. All of my plugs and software/VSTi work, and video as well. No reason for me to upgrade, as there are only a couple of extra useful features for me in N5, and they're no big deal. The things that I need to be improved have not been, so I will wait and see what happens with N6. Or PT11, for that matter (although I don't hold out much hope for the latter).

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby PauloMedeira » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:00 am

- I've heard no problems with sound quality in "audio engine mixdowns". No idea what you're talking about. Compared to what really?

- 64bit float for audio processing on the GPU? Why? Seems completely unnecessary to me....[/quote]


some guys that tested nuendo´s audio mixdowns against protools 9 and samplitude pro 11, said that the sound is not as good.... not 100% transparent when it mixes down a lot o tracks in the box
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby PauloMedeira » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:28 am

other thoughts about the future on Nuendo.

- how about creating a similar product of this one :
http://www.virtualvtr.com/
but using only ethernet for sincing with nuendo, just like protools satelite :)
no need for video cards ...

and also this :
http://www.fx-max.com/fxt/
how about intergrating a similar idea into nuendo ?
to be able to grab the processing power of more cpus over gigabit to process vst and vsti plugins.....

this could unload resouces from a main nuendo daw.....

Cheers,

PM
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby PauloMedeira » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:31 am

Bassman wrote:
Big K wrote:Oh, your UR28M is a nice little machine that has great features and sound for its 400 Euro price tag, but it is not on the Olympus.. ;-) I see a little headroom for sound improvement there, over a 64bit float audio engine...


:mrgreen:


yes agree, i was getting a rme fireface uc ... but now i have no cash to get it..... :)
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby SBN » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:49 am

if i were you, i would keep away from that toy called UC ;)
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby SBN » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:55 am

pm wrote: some guys that tested nuendo´s audio mixdowns against protools 9 and samplitude pro 11, said that the sound is not as good.... not 100% transparent when it mixes down a lot o tracks in the box

I would advise them to get a better shrink,,.
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby DG » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:12 am

PauloMedeira wrote: - how about creating a similar product of this one :
http://www.virtualvtr.com/
but using only ethernet for sincing with nuendo, just like protools satelite :)
no need for video cards ...

There are already products for using slave PCs for video.
PauloMedeira wrote:and also this :
http://www.fx-max.com/fxt/
how about intergrating a similar idea into nuendo ?
to be able to grab the processing power of more cpus over gigabit to process vst and vsti plugins.....

this could unload resouces from a main nuendo daw.....


VE Pro.

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby DG » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:13 am

PauloMedeira wrote:

some guys that tested nuendo´s audio mixdowns against protools 9 and samplitude pro 11, said that the sound is not as good.... not 100% transparent when it mixes down a lot o tracks in the box

See my suggested test here.

http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... 76&t=15106

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Big K » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:28 am

If Alsihad sounded any better than Nuendo, I would not be as nasty about it.
It simply doesn't.... Ask our freelancer colleagues who work on many systems, what they say about it.

Hi DG
Error... Those plugs that don't work, have mostly been discontinnued and/or can't work in Win7 or in 64bit environment ( see Wizoo W5 ) . All supported Plugs work without problems. It seems, everytime we enter a new OS or processor technology there is something we have to leave behind (like those 3 Parhelias on the shelf, here... :-().

In my case, no disfunctional plugin problem is Nuendo 5.5 related...

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby DG » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:44 am

Big K wrote:Error... Those plugs that don't work, have mostly been discontinnued and/or can't work in Win7 or in 64bit environment ( see Wizoo W5 ) . All supported Plugs work without problems. It seems, everytime we enter a new OS or processor technology there is something we have to leave behind (like those 3 Parhelias on the shelf, here... :-().

In my case, no disfunctional plugin problem is Nuendo 5.5 related...

Big K

Fair enough. Still no reason for me to risk upgrading for no benefit to my work though. Let's see what happens with N6. ;)

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Big K » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:27 pm

Quite so...
Why should you upgrade, if there is no feature in N5 that you need.

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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby Lydiot » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:00 pm

PauloMedeira wrote:
- I've heard no problems with sound quality in "audio engine mixdowns". No idea what you're talking about. Compared to what really?

- 64bit float for audio processing on the GPU? Why? Seems completely unnecessary to me....


some guys that tested nuendo´s audio mixdowns against protools 9 and samplitude pro 11, said that the sound is not as good.... not 100% transparent when it mixes down a lot o tracks in the box


There are always "some guys" who "tested" this, that and the other software against the competition and the competition won. But the devil is in the details. Everyone has an opinion, just like they have an ______ , so the important thing is what and how they measured this difference. Do you know how they tested it? Who they were?

To my knowledge there are two things that are true for sure;

1, double-blind tests on summing buses reveal that when done correctly there is no audible difference between softwares.

2, most of the time when there is a difference it's so small that it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. One can spend X hours worrying about getting Nuendo to sound 0.25% better to match some other random software, or one can use those X hours to work, make money, and then use that money to buy a better microphone, mic pre, converter or whatever for recording/mixing which improves the sound 10% instead.....
Please PM for conversation.
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Re: Future Nuendo DAW

Postby DG » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:22 pm

OK, I did my little test. A bounced file from PT 9 is identical to a mixdown file from Nuendo 4. When phase reversed they not only cancel perfectly, but also cancel with the original, proving that both DAW engines are doing the job properly. I will do the same test with summing multiple files when I have time, so that I can see whether or not the summing engines are different.

Just did the summing test. All files are identical. So proof that there is no difference in the sound of a bounce from PT or a mixdown from Nuendo.

Therefore all differences is mix will be caused by either differences between RTAS/TDM and VST versions of plugs, or differences in how each DAW implements faders etc. However a competent engineer will always use his/her ears. so there is no reason that a mix done on one system couldn't sound the same as a mix done on the other.

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