Yes, I use the Score editor...

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Yes, I use the Score editor...

Postby SteveInChicago » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:23 am

Who else is else using the Score Editor much? Vic_France est ce que tu est la qqpart?

I don't think a single person has mentioned the Score editor in regard to the Cubase 6 update, so I thought I would.

It does not look like anything been changed or added to in the Score Editor from my read of the manual today.Is that correct, Chris et al?

Please indulge me for a bit while reminisce before getting to the point...

I'm another one who first used Cubase on an Atari 1024 mega st. What a machine. 1/4" sound inputs, TV video output, built in midi ports, and some other stuff I can't remember. 4 megabytes of ram. 1/4096th of the ram that is in my cell phone now. I installed Cubase from a single floppy disk.

Sure, it's not Finale, but wow, anyway. I just finished an evening of putting together charts for a rehearsal tomorrow. I have the charts in a project that is 30 minutes long, a show with live musicians, sound design and spoken word on tape (yeah, I say tape but it's in Cubase) and videos of previous performances of the piece that we have edited in Cubase for time insertions and deletions.

I am able to fairly sync up the notation to the video, have done some transcribing from the live audio, and I have a nice unified look to my charts using the text set tools, and once I deleted the odd chord presets Steinberg included these many years ago, nice looking chord symbols using a 3rd party font.

Each chart has a different tempo and time sig, and using the tempo and sig tracks it's all sticking together.Took a bit to get my head around how to make that happen, but once done one has a most flexible, amazing if you think about it, tool.

Of course no post to this forum is complete without some whining so here I go:

Cubase got an update of the Score editor, I think for v5, but I don't remember, maybe it was earlier, and it brought good things.

The problems currently with the Score editor revolve around window focus management, at least here on the Mac side. I want a way to get focus to any window using the keyboard, not the mouse.

Open a properties window and it doesn't get focus, even after adjusting a setting inside it. Often you cannot tab through the text fields.

There is no way to give focus to the window without clicking in it, so it either stays open, or you grab the mouse just for that. Pity, since Cubase is so keyboard friendly.

I would like more symbols, there are a bunch, but there are some missing.

Small stuff maybe, but I would love to see Score Editor grow some more.

Thanks for reading...

Steve
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby curteye » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:44 am

Aloha Steve,
I too have noticed nothing much new in the scoring dept.
But I then again I still have a prob 'getting my head around' using scoring features in Cubase.
( I use Sebelius for scoring)
This is not new for me. I have had this prob since version 2.5. I just can't seem to 'get it'.

But now after a long lay off and after reading this:
SteveInChicago wrote:Took a bit to get my head around how to make that happen, but once done one has a most flexible, amazing if you think about it, tool.


And with a new year and a new Cubase (6), once I get it installed, I'm going to try it again.

Steve you have inspired me. Thank you very much.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby SteveInChicago » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:03 am

Cool, curteye.

It would be nice to have threads about the score editor pop up from time to time.

Let me know if there's anything I can share once you get going in 6.

Aloha

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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby curteye » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:09 am

Mahalo,
Between you and Vic France I might be able to crack it this time.

I'll keep you posted.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Basjoe » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:02 am

I use the score editor to write/arrange 18th and 19th century "traditional" music (sometimes with new harmonisation) for an eight-piece group. I draw most of the dynamics/performance markings on the parts by hand, because it's quicker and less fiddly. Additionally, Cubase is then used to produce a midi "mockup" so that the players can get an idea what it's supposed to sound like. And, if we subsequently record one of the pieces, then this will provide the guide track(s).

Steinberg hasn't done much with the score editor for a long time, and I suspect some of the programming/musical expertise may now have been lost from the team. Except for music professionals, I guess the modern customer base doesn't use score writing very much.

I'll upgrade to v6 (from v4 - there was nothing in v5 to tempt me) soon, so if there are improvements to the score editor I'd be very interested to hear about it.

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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby andyjh » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:21 am

I use the score editor, in fact it is my main way to edit, but it does have a number of issues, and certainly has been neglected as far as updates have been concerned. I now use Sibelius, which really starts to show up how primitave the Cubase score editor is, but it still has major bugs, like when you edit one note, it makes other ghost notes appear from no where (you have to keep hitting "Update" to keep the score looking right).
It looks to me like Cubase is chasing the Ableton/Garage Band market, all loops, phrases and time stretching, which is of no interest to me whatsover, I use Cubase because it was a MIDI and audio recording system, I think it is trying to be something else now.......
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby arimus » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:25 am

Last time I touched score editor was with Cubase Score 3.0 for Atari. It was a traumatic experience. I think I'm gonna give it a second chance with Cubase 6. Not that it would replace Sibelius, but who knows?
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Ian s » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:48 am

I use the score editor. Not so much for editing/composing, but certainly for making parts for musicians, and checking scores. It's great for those sort of tasks.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Conman » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:19 pm

I am able to fairly sync up the notation to the video, have done some transcribing from the live audio, and I have a nice unified look to my charts using the text set tools, and once I deleted the odd chord presets Steinberg included these many years ago, nice looking chord symbols using a 3rd party font.


Well done but this is not the way to use Score. If you've had it that long you'll know that it's a graphic tool only. Just meant for printing scores that you get to look tidy by rearranging your midi if you've been so remiss as to have it play back unquantised. The playback while midi lets you hear it is just for checking the score correctness. Not telling you off because I have to remind myself sometimes and it's a common conception.

You can, because it mostly does (and yes, I do this too), use it as a visual aid for a player to play along live maybe or for student score reading practise but I wouldn't trust it to work this way 100% without having some sync / display problems along the way. And sometimes it's best to keep an old quill around for doing the odd hand job after printout that Cubase just wouldn't let you do. Although you might find just the right tool after 20 years digging around the score tools.

You have to ask yourself "What's the score feature for?" and "Is it actually designed for what I think it does or what I want to use it for?"
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby parnasso » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:24 pm

Conman wrote:Well done but this is not the way to use Score. If you've had it that long you'll know that it's a graphic tool only. Just meant for printing scores that you get to look tidy by rearranging your midi if you've been so remiss as to have it play back unquantised. The playback while midi lets you hear it is just for checking the score correctness. Not telling you off because I have to remind myself sometimes and it's a common conception.

You can, because it mostly does (and yes, I do this too), use it as a visual aid for a player to play along live maybe or for student score reading practise but I wouldn't trust it to work this way 100% without having some sync / display problems along the way. And sometimes it's best to keep an old quill around for doing the odd hand job after printout that Cubase just wouldn't let you do. Although you might find just the right tool after 20 years digging around the score tools.

You have to ask yourself "What's the score feature for?" and "Is it actually designed for what I think it does or what I want to use it for?"


Well, I have to disagree that the score editor is meant only for graphical purposes and printing, I think it is an absolutely indispensable tool for composing. How do you want to write arrangements for various instruments like, let's say, a string section or a brass section if you don't see the notes for each instrument?
I mean, you can of course arrange everything in your head and just record the parts into the arrange window if you are a genius like Mozart (who mostly had his compositions perfectly ready in his head and just wrote them down)... but for us mere mortals it is much easier and even necessary to see how to distribute all the voices and decide which note goes to which instrument. So, how do you want to compose complex arrangements without the score editor?

Having said this and judging from how the score editor is integrated in Cubase, I probably have to admit though that Steinberg themselves see the score editor rather for graphical purposes and printing, but there are a few possibilities for using it as a compositional tool, for example you can record into the score editor which is very handy for arranging. But there are a few shortcomings and bugs and I'd like them to address them in order to make it easier to use for composing. When I will have more time I'll post a few feature requests on this forum (I already had done this once on the old forum but as very few people seem to be interested in this subject it didn't draw much attention)

The bottom line is that for a traditional musician the score editor in my opinion is absolutely indispensable for serious composing.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Basjoe » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:39 pm

parnasso wrote:
Conman wrote:The bottom line is that for a traditional musician the score editor in my opinion is absolutely indispensable for serious composing.


Quite agree.

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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Conman » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:46 pm

Well, I have to disagree that the score editor is meant only for graphical purposes and printing, I think it is an absolutely indispensable tool for composing. How do you want to write arrangements for various instruments like, let's say, a string section or a brass section if you don't see the notes for each instrument?
I mean, you can of course arrange everything in your head and just record the parts into the arrange window if you are a genius like Mozart (who mostly had his compositions perfectly ready in his head and just wrote them down)... but for us mere mortals it is much easier and even necessary to see how to distribute all the voices and decide which note goes to which instrument. So, how do you want to compose complex arrangements without the score editor?


I'm taking it seriously but I suspect it's a joke,

REAL musicians, and ordinary, not geniuses like Mozza, have done it for years using nought but a pencil and paper.
God! You'd think nobody wrote music before they invented Cubase score editor!?

Learn how to use a pen and paper. You'll have revelation. You can buy special lined paper too. Looks just like proper music stuff. :mrgreen:

It just gets better in here every day. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: You couldn't make it up.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Ian s » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:03 pm

Conman wrote:
..................... You can buy special lined paper too. Looks just like proper music stuff. ...............


:lol:

I even have a special pen with 5 nibs so i can draw my own staffs. Useful especially if you want to insert a bar or 2 with lots of notes into a score. Just draw a curved staff, and then there's more room.

I find I don't use the List Editor very much, but then I'm a musician ;)
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby JMCecil » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:11 pm

I use Sibelius as well. I try to use the Cubase one from time to time, but it always reminds me why I use Sibelius. The additions in Expressions will probably have me try again.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Conman » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:14 pm

List editor? That's my pockets. If I list one way I just put another bottle in the other pocket.
Or is that the Liszt edirot?
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby vic_france » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:45 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:Who else is else using the Score Editor much? Vic_France est ce que tu est la qqpart?

I don't think a single person has mentioned the Score editor in regard to the Cubase 6 update, so I thought I would.

It does not look like anything been changed or added to in the Score Editor from my read of the manual today.Is that correct, Chris et al?

From what I have read (or rather, from trying to "read between the lines" ;) ), the only thing I have noticed is that Dynamics have been further extended to VST Expression (although this may only be noticeable in the Key Editor, rather than the Score Editor).
In fact, watching the various videos, it is the improvements to MIDI editing in general, that have me the most excited about Cubase 6.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby SteveInChicago » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:09 pm

Basjoe wrote:I use the score editor to write/arrange 18th and 19th century "traditional" music (sometimes with new harmonisation) for an eight-piece group. I draw most of the dynamics/performance markings on the parts by hand, because it's quicker and less fiddly. Additionally, Cubase is then used to produce a midi "mockup" so that the players can get an idea what it's supposed to sound like. And, if we subsequently record one of the pieces, then this will provide the guide track(s).

Steinberg hasn't done much with the score editor for a long time, and I suspect some of the programming/musical expertise may now have been lost from the team. Except for music professionals, I guess the modern customer base doesn't use score writing very much.

[...]if there are improvements to the score editor I'd be very interested to hear about it.

Basjoe


Yes, very similar to what I use it for. (reharmonization of 18th & 19th century music- I'd like to hear that!) I went looking for a new features doc to see what version got the Score Editor improvements but couldn't find it. Anyone remember when that tabbed score settings dialog was added?
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby SteveInChicago » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:25 pm

Conman wrote:Well done but this is not the way to use Score. [...]


I imagine that the way to use any of the tools in Cubase was "however I could".

Conman wrote:[...] I wouldn't trust it to work this way 100% without having some sync / display problems along the way.


When I say sync, I mean, generally, and approximately, as in a piece of music starts at 15:30,00 and the sheet music is there in that spot on the timeline when I look for it. Also good for in transcribing material created extemporaneously. (or any kind of transcribing task)

Conman wrote:And sometimes it's best to keep an old quill around for doing the odd hand job [...]


Talk about the wrong tool for the job! :lol: (sorry, can't resist)

Conman wrote:You have to ask yourself "What's the score feature for?" and "Is it actually designed for what I think it does or what I want to use it for?"


Actually, I am interested in knowing what it was designed for, but will use it for what it does too. I think that is a creative approach, and doesn't innovation come from using tools in ways the designer might not have been thinking about at first?

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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby SteveInChicago » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:34 pm

vic_france wrote:
From what I have read (or rather, from trying to "read between the lines" ;) ), the only thing I have noticed is that Dynamics have been further extended to VST Expression (although this may only be noticeable in the Key Editor, rather than the Score Editor).
In fact, watching the various videos, it is the improvements to MIDI editing in general, that have me the most excited about Cubase 6.


Yes, that new VST expression stuff sounds like fun, looking forward to checking that out. Hiya Vic.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby SteveInChicago » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:47 pm

Ian s wrote:I even have a special pen with 5 nibs so i can draw my own staffs. Useful especially if you want to insert a bar or 2 with lots of notes into a score. Just draw a curved staff, and then there's more room.


Yes, for a more flowing workflow :roll: ... I would like that pen. Ian, do you know where I can get one?
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby chase » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:18 pm

Ian s wrote:
Conman wrote:
..................... You can buy special lined paper too. Looks just like proper music stuff. ...............


:lol:

I even have a special pen with 5 nibs so i can draw my own staffs.

I've seen one of those in a film, but never in reality - are they actually still for sale (or were you kidding)?

I have Excel spreadsheets with the row heights adjusted to suit the staves and the gaps between them: cell-border lines create the staff lines. Some are just 12 bare staves per page. Others have clefs pasted in, plus braces - with and without pre-drawn bar lines spanning two or three staves. Mainly for sketching brief ideas at the piano - so mainly printed one side only.

Try it? It might take you 20 mins to get the first page right (margins, spacing, etc), but then it's there whenever you want it.

Absurdly, it seems to be cheaper to print your own score paper on a laser printer than to buy it ready printed - proper printing ought to be cheaper, didn't it?

(I've seen manuscript paper downloadable in pdf format, but I prefer mine.)

---

There's one aspect of the lack of change in Cubase's score editor that's actually good, IMHO - consistency. ...

I've found that scores prepared in one version of Cubase weren't right in another - apart from anything else, the MIDI that had been tweaked to make the score look right in the earlier version didn't make it look right in the later one.

Therefore, I have no confidence that a score created in Cubase will be editable or even readable(?) in a later version. Puts me off using it much.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby parnasso » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:38 pm

Conman wrote:
Well, I have to disagree that the score editor is meant only for graphical purposes and printing, I think it is an absolutely indispensable tool for composing. How do you want to write arrangements for various instruments like, let's say, a string section or a brass section if you don't see the notes for each instrument?
I mean, you can of course arrange everything in your head and just record the parts into the arrange window if you are a genius like Mozart (who mostly had his compositions perfectly ready in his head and just wrote them down)... but for us mere mortals it is much easier and even necessary to see how to distribute all the voices and decide which note goes to which instrument. So, how do you want to compose complex arrangements without the score editor?


I'm taking it seriously but I suspect it's a joke,

REAL musicians, and ordinary, not geniuses like Mozza, have done it for years using nought but a pencil and paper.
God! You'd think nobody wrote music before they invented Cubase score editor!?

Learn how to use a pen and paper. You'll have revelation. You can buy special lined paper too. Looks just like proper music stuff. :mrgreen:

It just gets better in here every day. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: You couldn't make it up.


Oh man... no need to become condescending!

Where did I write that you can compose only with Cubase's score editor?! Such a nonsense.
I spoke about score editors (or their equivalent on paper) in general.

I have used pencil and paper myself, thank you, I don't need your revelations. And if you write that real musicians composed and arranged on paper then they did (and still do it) for exactly the same reason I have mentioned above: one needs to see the various voices in order to better arrange and distribute the notes.
But if you want to work with virtual instruments then I guess pencil and paper won't suffice, don't you think? One needs a sequencer for that. And I think it's more convenient to arrange directly in Cubase than to use an external notation program like Finale or Sibelius (or even write everything on paper) first and then record it in Cubase. That's why I'm interested in some further development of Cubase's score editor.
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Ian s » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:44 pm

chase wrote:..........
I've seen one of those in a film, but never in reality - are they actually still for sale (or were you kidding)?




No I'm serious! Although to be honest I haven't used it for quite some time.
As to whether you can still get them..I believe so, from a calligraphy suppliers.

You've inspired me to consider printing my paper in a more high tech way though :D
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby Ian s » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:52 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:
Ian s wrote:I even have a special pen with 5 nibs so i can draw my own staffs. Useful especially if you want to insert a bar or 2 with lots of notes into a score. Just draw a curved staff, and then there's more room.


Yes, for a more flowing workflow :roll: ... I would like that pen. Ian, do you know where I can get one?


http://www.scribblers.co.uk/acatalog/Brause_Miscellaneous_Nibs.html

Sorry Steve, this site's in the UK, but at least we know they still exist!
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Re: Yes, I use the Score editor.

Postby SteveInChicago » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:55 pm

chase wrote:
Ian s wrote:
Conman wrote:
..................... You can buy special lined paper too. Looks just like proper music stuff. ...............


:lol:

I even have a special pen with 5 nibs so i can draw my own staffs.

I've seen one of those in a film, but never in reality - are they actually still for sale (or were you kidding)?

I have Excel spreadsheets [...] Mainly for sketching brief ideas at the piano


Nice idea, that. I have been printing manuscript paper from Finale- it's hard to find manuscript paper to buy. In Chicago 20 years ago there were at least half a dozen music stores where you could buy it, and even some stationary stores (there's an anachronism) stocked it. Now there's one store, and they don't always stock a variety of staff systems.

So I found Ian's pen, I'd buy it just for the name: "Automatic 5 line pen" http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detai ... eyword=n28

[edit: Ian posted while I was writing this... Thanks]

A little tough to use on the train what with the ink bottle and all ;)
---

chase wrote:There's one aspect of the lack of change in Cubase's score editor that's actually good, IMHO - consistency. ...

I've found that scores prepared in one version of Cubase weren't right in another - apart from anything else, the MIDI that had been tweaked to make the score look right in the earlier version didn't make it look right in the later one.

Therefore, I have no confidence that a score created in Cubase will be editable or even readable(?) in a later version. Puts me off using it much.


Yes, accurate expectations are important, with the project I was talking about once the sheet music is done I assume I will have problems opening it later in a newer version. I keep the formatting simple, and the ensembles small. If I have to reformat it takes very little time. I save the sheet music in pdf form. Over time i make a bunch of pen/pencil notes on the printed scores, and it's all just fine for this purpose. Also, I am not too concerned about how it sounds, I use "Score Notes to Midi" if necessary.
Cubase 7.5.20 | Mac 10.8.5 | i7-3770k Gigabyte Z77-UD5H | 16gb | TC Konnekt24D
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