Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Pablo1980 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:26 pm

I am hosting kontakt in cubase, not VEPRO. every instance is a instrument track (violins I, Violins II etc)
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby beatpete » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:31 pm

Pablo1980 wrote:I am hosting kontakt in cubase, not VEPRO. every instance is a instrument track (violins I, Violins II etc)


I was referring to the OPs post. VEP Pro is a much more elegant way to get huge orchestral templates into Cubase. I have a relatively small VEP Pro template (on another computer, loaded with 5 intances of Kontakt with 16 channels each of orchestral stuff) coming into Cubase with 45 stereo outs and (with decouple on) it loads very quickly.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Pablo1980 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:50 pm

I am sorry for the misread, I can´t buy VEpro right know (budget is tight), I would like to have a working cubase version since 7.0.6 didn´t have any of this problems.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Plasuma » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:22 pm

Vinylizor wrote:Very large .cpr files here too

Yup, here too.

Size from 7.0.6: 546KB
Size from 7.5: 4,490KB
Workstation Specifications
Box A: Intel 3770K, 32GB RAM, Win 7 Pro x64, Cubase 7.5.0, VEPro 5
Box B: Intel 4930K, 64GB RAM, Win 7 Pro x64, VEPro 5
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Monfra321 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:24 pm

Its pretty bad…

I don't care what new features are going to be offered in CUBASE 8….I only want cubase to run faster and crash less. I'll pay whatever they ask for this.

22 Minutes to load my template?
6 seconds to call up my VST instruments panel?
4 seconds to use track visibility agents?

PLEASE MAKE CUBASE HANDLE LARGE TEMPLATES FASTER. The improvements are welcome and CUBASE is the best daw in my opinion, but if these load times and lags continue, I will need to go to a lesser DAW just so I don't have to wait for my template to load...
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby The Parlanchin » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:42 pm

My first load time of 7.5 was very slow (more than 10 minutes maybe). The E-licenser seemed quite busy.

Subsequent start ups have been fine: faster I think than C6.5 or C7.0.6

C7.5 feels stable and slick to me so far. No crashes at all either!
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby studioton » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:08 pm

The Parlanchin wrote:
Subsequent start ups have been fine: faster I think than C6.5 or C7.0.6

C7.5 feels stable and slick to me so far. No crashes at all either!


+1
7.5 works very good in all conditions. no crashes, very quickly. Loading older projects fine. No problems here..
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby papi61 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:19 am

over 1800 tracks


WHOA!! :o

I do soundtracks with a full-orchestra mockup, but I never have more than 150-200 tracks. And now with "versions", I no longer need to have alternate tracks of the same instruments, so it's going to be even less than that.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Svenne » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:55 am

I've been thinking. If I have understood you correct, those huge projects contain Kontakt/Vienna VST plug-ins that loads large libraries.

The question is whether it's Cubase or the plug-ins that cause the long loading times. Try saving a copy, where you've removed all the plug-ins but kept everything Cubase (tracks, buses, etc). Is the saved file still huge? Does the file still take an extraordinarily long time to load?

If the answers are yes, it's most likely Cubase which is at fault. If no, you should take a closer look at the plug-ins. They probably need updating.

I also get the impression that you all are on Windows. Has anyone tested these project files on the Mac? It would be interesting to know if this is a platform specific problem. If the problem does not occur on the Mac, maybe Windows itself is involved somehow.

These tests would go a long way to help Steinbergs engineers narrowing down the case of the problem.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby studioton » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:59 am

I have some projects with large kontakt lib. , i have about 11gb used memory..and it loads correctly
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Svenne » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:17 pm

studioton wrote:I have some projects with large kontakt lib. , i have about 11gb used memory..and it loads correctly

Are you on Mac or Windows?
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby studioton » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:19 pm

Win 7 64
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Pablo1980 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:39 pm

I have conducted more tests, I believe that it may have to do with my number of kontakt instances. I use instruments tracks for every instrument or group, so I have ended with 150+ instrument tracks. The problem is that I see them instanciating in the new vst rack (why this change when everything was ok?????).

the higher Kontakt tracks (#100 an so on) have a lag between loading screens (I don´t know if I making myself clear here), and I see cubase triyng to open the vst rack module of each kontakt and wasting 10 seconds on each.


Maybe some one can conduct similar testes with lots of kontakt instances?
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby noiseboyuk » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:23 am

Pablo1980 wrote:I have conducted more tests, I believe that it may have to do with my number of kontakt instances. I use instruments tracks for every instrument or group, so I have ended with 150+ instrument tracks. The problem is that I see them instanciating in the new vst rack (why this change when everything was ok?????).

the higher Kontakt tracks (#100 an so on) have a lag between loading screens (I don´t know if I making myself clear here), and I see cubase triyng to open the vst rack module of each kontakt and wasting 10 seconds on each.


Maybe some one can conduct similar testes with lots of kontakt instances?


Jeepers. Do you use 150 monotimbral instrument tracks for Kontakt? I use 16 instruments per Kontakt instance, and the vast majority are hosted (locally) on VE Pro, 8 instances of Kontakt per VE Pro instance - that's 128 nkis per single instance of VE Pro in the VST rack . I think that's always been the most resource-efficient way to do it, but I reckon far more so now in the all-new VST rack.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby sonic74 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:16 am

The constant speed growth in cpu technology (which seems to halt nowadays) must not mean the software can perform slower and rely on a very fast cpu to run optimally. We all are building the highest spec systems but always pushing by loading more and more stuff, using more inserts, groups etc...

So I think the right direction to go is to make Cubase efficent and optimized. For me, using software that really flows is the most user-friendly experience. But when I press F11 and have to wait for the instruments rack to show up, I feel there's something wrong there. I know I must not buy the next cpu (intel has to offer) just to make that window pop up instantly.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Pablo1980 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:39 am

I will revisit my workflow and template, But, why 7.0.2 loads perfectly and 7.5 hangs for 27 seconds when I press f11?

This is a new problem in 7.5 isnt it?
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby pondwalden » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:56 am

dbwalter wrote:I wonder if the issue has anything to do with this:

Cubase users with lots of MIDI ports face the issue that their templates will take ages to load. This is due to a behaviour of Cubase that makes it take a very long time to initialize any VST3 plugin that exceeds 8 MIDI ports. What I have heard is that Cubase somehow initializes all the additional ports and checks their allocations. The first eight MIDI ports are not treated this way. This is why it makes sense to only use 8 MIDI ports per VE Pro instance and in order to be able to have the number of instruments required, use more instances with 8 ports instead of just a few instances with 64 ports.

As far as I can tell, only Cubase shows this behaviour. Users of Studio One (which is also able to use VST3 plugins) can use 64 ports without overly long loading times.



I'm quoting an article from scorecastonline there. It dramatically reduced my template load time but that was back in CB 6.5 days.

This problem sounds like a potentially new one and is very worrying, but I offer this info just in case anyone wasn't aware. Is anyone here using more than 8 ports?


So put this theory to the test by reducing the possible midi ports my VEPro instances to 8 and my palette still took over 25 min to load.
I have noticed as another user pointed out that the new VST rack seems to load each VSTi one at a time with a pause in between each one. The VEPro instances I have end up moving down a slot (going from 3 to 4, 4 to 5, etc.) as each new instrument is loaded. It seems like cubase is loading one at a time, verifying all the midi connections and then moving that instrument to a different slot and reverifying the midi connections each time a new instrument is loaded.

Can Steinberg at least comment as to whether they've verified this issue?
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Svenne » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:04 am

Pablo1980 wrote:I will revisit my workflow and template, But, why 7.0.2 loads perfectly and 7.5 hangs for 27 seconds when I press f11?

This is a new problem in 7.5 isnt it?

It may very well be, but the question is to figure out the cause. Is it a bug in Cubase or is it the plug-ins? Even if Steinberg has changed something in Cubase, it's the plug-in manufacturers responsibility the update their products, not the other way around. Complaining to Steinberg if the plug-in is the cause, makes no sense.

Another thing that is worthy of notice is that everybody who experiences this problem, according to the profiles, are on Windows 7.

There are three tests (two of which I've suggested before) that needs to be done. But noone seems to have done so yet.
1) Take one of these project files with 150+ instances of Kontakt, Vienna, or whatever and remove them all. It may be a good idea to remove all plugin (effects aswell), so that you're only left with the track structure. Does it still take a long time to load.
2) Replace the instrument instances with a Steinberg plug in, say HALion Sonic SE 2. Does the problem still persists?
3) Try to open the original project file, with all the plug-ons and libraries on a Mac. How long does it take to open it now?

When these tests have been performed we'll have a better idea of:
a) What is causing the problem (Cubase or the plug-ins).
b) If it is a platform specific problem, to Windows 7.

Then we'll be much closer to finding a solution.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby MrSmith » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:32 am

Svenne wrote:
Pablo1980 wrote:I will revisit my workflow and template, But, why 7.0.2 loads perfectly and 7.5 hangs for 27 seconds when I press f11?

This is a new problem in 7.5 isnt it?

It may very well be, but the question is to figure out the cause. Is it a bug in Cubase or is it the plug-ins? Even if Steinberg has changed something in Cubase, it's the plug-in manufacturers responsibility the update their products, not the other way around. Complaining to Steinberg if the plug-in is the cause, makes no sense.


If it worked in 7.0.2 and ceased working in 7.5 then it is apparent that Cubase was sole variable that changed. Therefore, it stands to reason that the cause of the issue is related to Cubase.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby crohde » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:34 am

Hello guys,

We are investigating this issue!
Best regards,

Carlos Mendoza Rohde - Product Marketing Manager Cubase & Apps
Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH
Hamburg, Germany
Check out Steinberg on YouTube, Twitter and Facebook
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Svenne » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:43 am

MrSmith wrote:
Svenne wrote:It may very well be, but the question is to figure out the cause. Is it a bug in Cubase or is it the plug-ins? Even if Steinberg has changed something in Cubase, it's the plug-in manufacturers responsibility the update their products, not the other way around. Complaining to Steinberg if the plug-in is the cause, makes no sense.


If it worked in 7.0.2 and ceased working in 7.5 then it is apparent that Cubase was sole variable that changed. Therefore, it stands to reason that the cause of the issue is related to Cubase.

Please, re-read the paragraph from my posting that you quoted carefully. Or do suggest that Steinberg start updating other manufacturers products?
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby MrSmith » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:52 am

crohde wrote:Hello guys,

We are investigating this issue!


Thanks for the communication
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby kiwi » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:32 pm

In an old project i did change GrooveAgent ONE to GrooveAgent SE.
Now the project needed a very long time to load.
I looked into the folder - \Documents\VST XMLs\Steinberg Media Technologies\Groove Agent SE -
and saw the Generic 8 Cell.xml file with over 1 MByte.
I deleted the file ( because i did not use the Remote Control Editor) and now everything works fine.
Windows 8 (64bit), Intel Core i5, Cubase 7, Halion 5
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby beatpete » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:42 pm

pondwalden wrote:
dbwalter wrote:I wonder if the issue has anything to do with this:

Cubase users with lots of MIDI ports face the issue that their templates will take ages to load. This is due to a behaviour of Cubase that makes it take a very long time to initialize any VST3 plugin that exceeds 8 MIDI ports. What I have heard is that Cubase somehow initializes all the additional ports and checks their allocations. The first eight MIDI ports are not treated this way. This is why it makes sense to only use 8 MIDI ports per VE Pro instance and in order to be able to have the number of instruments required, use more instances with 8 ports instead of just a few instances with 64 ports.

As far as I can tell, only Cubase shows this behaviour. Users of Studio One (which is also able to use VST3 plugins) can use 64 ports without overly long loading times.



I'm quoting an article from scorecastonline there. It dramatically reduced my template load time but that was back in CB 6.5 days.

This problem sounds like a potentially new one and is very worrying, but I offer this info just in case anyone wasn't aware. Is anyone here using more than 8 ports?


So put this theory to the test by reducing the possible midi ports my VEPro instances to 8 and my palette still took over 25 min to load.
I have noticed as another user pointed out that the new VST rack seems to load each VSTi one at a time with a pause in between each one. The VEPro instances I have end up moving down a slot (going from 3 to 4, 4 to 5, etc.) as each new instrument is loaded. It seems like cubase is loading one at a time, verifying all the midi connections and then moving that instrument to a different slot and reverifying the midi connections each time a new instrument is loaded.

Can Steinberg at least comment as to whether they've verified this issue?


Do you have "decouple" highlighted in VEP Pro?
Comp1: Windows 7 64bit, Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R, Intel I7 970, 12 gig Patriot DDR3 ram, RME Digiface, Steinberg MR816x, Geoforce 66000 PCIe, , Cubase 7.5.20 64bit
Comp 2:Windows 7 64bit,Celeron G540,16 gb ram, VEPro.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 Excruciating load times

Postby Pablo1980 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:54 pm

Ok, I ran some tests here:

138 track instruments of omnisphere (light patch): 10 minutes (7.5) vs 1 minute (7.0.2)
180 track instruments of padshop: 20 minutes (7.5) vs 2 minutes (7.0.2)

the thing I have founded is that if you keep the rack open during loading, you will see how every instance actually loads slower than the one before, you will see how the whole process begins to slow down, after 40 or so.

In my rig I have ruled out kontakt as the problem, can anybody reproduce the same tests?

I think it has to do with putting the track instruments in the rack. Padshop is a Steinberg vsti, so here it is safe to asume that cubase 7.5 is the variable that is not working properly.

Before you say, that´s a lot of vsti, use VE pro or anything else, think that:
a. 7.0.2 is working perfectly (don´t think is system related)
b. Steinberg didn´t say that we have a limit in the amount of vsti we can load.

Thanks
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