With upgrades it is an issue of economics

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With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby lancesworld8 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:17 pm

I seldom post here unless I have a problem with my software. However, I feel the need to post now because I am in having trouble purchasing the 7.5 update to Cubase 7. It makes sense only in the sense that a satisfied user of Cubase does not want the economic burden of waiting too long before he/she upgrades/updates. Based on the features provided in Cubase 7.0, I am quite satisfied. My upgrade path over the last few years have been both based on economics and features. At this point, the upgrade would only be for economic reasons. The new features in 7.5 and the potential for down time with bugs are pushing me not to upgrade. However, I am going to simply because it makes sense in a dollars and cents way.

This fact bothers me. Why? It is a form of coercion to maintain status quo instead of a transaction for the benefit of the consumer and the manufacturer. I will buy the upgrade but it is simply to maintain the future value of the software. This is an unfortunate trend with software companies. Let me correct that, it is a trend with manufacturers in general.

In the past, if I bought a Gibson Les Paul, the value would only fluctuate in slight increments. It never completely lost its value. I could pick up a 50 year old guitar and I could still play the instrument. I still have hardware compressors that are 30 years old and I still use them. Yes, there was maintenance but it amounts to less than $300.00 over that 30 years. However, with the lifespan of hard drives, motherboards, and operating systems, software I buy today will have zero value in less than 10 years unless I update/upgrade. This has been true for quite sometime but the speed at which the updates/upgrades occur puts one in perpetual state of spending to maintain the value. Not to mention a perpetual state of troubleshooting to continue a workflow.

I have been writing, recording, and playing music for nearly 35 years. I say this only to point out that I remember what it was like before software recording. I appreciate the benefits of recording with software. I recognize that it is substantially cheaper than the hardware alternatives. However, I also recognize that some of these benefits have been stumbling blocks.

This post is not so much to complain about Steinberg/Yamaha but to put voice to what so many older consumers feel is the downfall of consumer products in general. As I stated a few paragraphs back, I like 7.0 and will probably like 7.5 but upgrading/updating for me is about saving money than features.
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby papi61 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:51 pm

lancesworld8 wrote:This is an unfortunate trend with software companies. Let me correct that, it is a trend with manufacturers in general.


Actually, it's how modern rampage capitalism in general works. Yeah, I don't like it either...
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby Grim » Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:07 pm

However, I am going to simply because it makes sense in a dollars and cents way.

I will buy the upgrade but it is simply to maintain the future value of the software


This makes no sense at all...upgrading now from Cubase 5 to Cubase 7.5 is cheaper than it would have been buying each incremental upgrade as they came out....Upgrading to 8 without 7.5 will work out the same or less as upgrading now. You aren't "maintaining any future value" by upgrading more frequently.
The only thing you may be doing is making smaller payments at one particular time.
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby HughH » Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:37 pm

I don't quite understand your position.

Yes there are things that hold their value. Guitars are an excellent example.

But there are many more things that do not: Your car, cell phone, computer, many appliances, etc.

As Technology marches on these things become obsolete or worn out.
This march of Technology, however, provides us with AMAZING capabilities that many could not afford or simply didn't exist in the past.

Perhaps a little off topic - but I become tired of hearing people complain about the cost of software and upgrades.
Designing, Programming, and marketing of software is EXPENSIVE!
I'm honestly amazed that companies like Steinberg can develop and continue to improve their products - mind numbingly complex constructions of a zillion interrelated functionalities - for as low a cost to users as they do . . . especially in as small a market as Music/Audio production is. This is not like Washing Machines, you know.

Particularly for professionals, like myself, the cost of Cubase - or even Nuendo - is miniscule. If you're a casual home user, you have to pay for your toys - or buy less expensive ones.

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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby ipanema » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:11 pm

I am also coming from a time when an 8-track tape recording studio was all there was when I wanted to record my music. The concept of "home studio" was only imaginable to the rich who could afford all the necessary hardware. Roughly it was only after the advent of the Atari ST that we could listen to our music at home, but only in the form of MIDI. For audio, you still needed to go to the studio. Then emerged ADAT and the like and recording audio at home became possible. After that technology advanced to offer hard-disk recording to the masses, and ever since that time we've all been doing it. Recording studios are still out there, and we still need them for more demanding projects.

Last night I was with a few relatives talking about the good old days. A 25-year-old asked his father: "How could you even live without a cell phone when you were young?" The father calmly answered: "Much more comfortably!"

When I come to think about it, I realize that we have always been "stuck" with the technology of the day. But technology used to advance very slowly during our years. At present the speed of technology advancement is so fast that we are not only "stuck" but also even "dominated" by it. And this is scary.

I largely agree with you on the point that whatever computer related product we buy today loses its value very quickly, and that we need to spend more and more after the introduction of newer stuff if we still wish to stay in the business--a VSTi could be released tomorrow, which we couldn't imagine it could ever exist, we go on and but it merely because we decide that we need it to take our ongoing project to the next level. So we are "tempted" by, and "give in" to new stuff if we can afford to buy.

I just want to say that economics is not the main issue here, rather it is the high speed of today's technology advancement that is also dominating economics, which in turn is devouring us all up.

I wonder what new features Cubase 10.5 will have to offer! Don't tell me you don't. ;)
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby Adam_Bove » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:46 pm

HughH wrote:I don't quite understand your position.

Yes there are things that hold their value. Guitars are an excellent example.

But there are many more things that do not: Your car, cell phone, computer, many appliances, etc.

As Technology marches on these things become obsolete or worn out.
This march of Technology, however, provides us with AMAZING capabilities that many could not afford or simply didn't exist in the past.

Perhaps a little off topic - but I become tired of hearing people complain about the cost of software and upgrades.
Designing, Programming, and marketing of software is EXPENSIVE!
I'm honestly amazed that companies like Steinberg can develop and continue to improve their products - mind numbingly complex constructions of a zillion interrelated functionalities - for as low a cost to users as they do . . . especially in as small a market as Music/Audio production is. This is not like Washing Machines, you know.

Particularly for professionals, like myself, the cost of Cubase - or even Nuendo - is miniscule. If you're a casual home user, you have to pay for your toys - or buy less expensive ones.

Hugh


+1

Thanks! You said basically everything I was also thinking while I was reading the OP.
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby Adam_Bove » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:58 pm

ipanema wrote:...whatever computer related product we buy today loses its value very quickly, and that we need to spend more and more after the introduction of newer stuff if we still wish to stay in the business


Is it really a matter of NEED? or WANT?

If I see new features that I think will help my workflow, and it's worth the cost to me...I buy it. If not, then I may not. You invest in the tools you need. There is no reason you NEED to upgrade. Your HDD fails you replace it. you don't need to upgrade to Win8 because you bought a new one.

My clients almost never ask what I'm using to get the job done...so long as I show them that I know what I'm doing and get them the results they are looking for.

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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby curteye » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:17 am

Adam_Bove wrote:
ipanema wrote:...whatever computer related product we buy today loses its value very quickly, and that we need to spend more and more after the introduction of newer stuff if we still wish to stay in the business


Is it really a matter of NEED? or WANT?

If I see new features that I think will help my workflow, and it's worth the cost to me...I buy it. If not, then I may not. You invest in the tools you need. There is no reason you NEED to upgrade. Your HDD fails you replace it. you don't need to upgrade to Win8 because you bought a new one.

My clients almost never ask what I'm using to get the job done...so long as I show them that I know what I'm doing and get them the results they are looking for.

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+1 and well stated. Word!
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby ipanema » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:08 am

Adam_Bove wrote:Is it really a matter of NEED? or WANT?


Actually, it's a matter of both. There is a thin line between these two. When you want something, you feel you need it. You might consciously or unconsciously trick yourself into buying something you don't absolutely need but you want. As simple as that. But let's not play with words here.

However, what I meant to say to the OP is that we need to accept it as a fact that the speed of today's technological advancement is forcing us to stay up-to-date. I have nothing against your logic or the post by HughH.

Let me give you an example: I was quite happy with OS X 10.6.8. Steinberg doesn't support that OS any longer, so I was kinda forced to upgrade to a new OS in order to make sure my new Cubendo versions would run hassle-free. And I'm praying to God that I wouldn't be forced to use Win 8 or buy the new Mac Pro as I'm quite happy with my current system. I do hope I'm making sense this time, since English is not my mother tongue.
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby Adam_Bove » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:22 am

ipanema wrote:
Adam_Bove wrote:Is it really a matter of NEED? or WANT?

Actually, it's a matter of both. There is a thin line between these two. When you want something, you feel you need it. You might consciously or unconsciously trick yourself into buying something you don't absolutely need but you want. As simple as that. But let's not play with words here.


I'm not playing with words here. I'm making a point as to the distinction of a WANT versus a NEED.

ipanema wrote:However, what I meant to say to the OP is that we need to accept it as a fact that the speed of today's technological advancement is forcing us to stay up-to-date.


I still disagree. The desire to stay up to date is different than a NEED to. If I upgrade my car because it no longer functions in the capacity I need it to...which is to cart my ass around, I would consider that a NEED. Just because I like the newer body style or the fact that I might get a few more miles per gallon...well?

ipanema wrote:Let me give you an example: I was quite happy with OS X 10.6.8. Steinberg doesn't support that OS any longer, so I was kinda forced to upgrade to a new OS in order to make sure my new Cubendo versions would run hassle-free


Which is precisely my point. If you left your setup the way it was (meaning Cubendo versions as well) What makes you NEED to upgrade your OS? Because future versions of your software won't be supported? What support do you need for the current version?

*edited for format/typos
Last edited by Adam_Bove on Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby Adam_Bove » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:27 am

In other words...just because you're keeping up with the Jones' doesn't mean innovative companies like Steinberg should give it away because you think it's not a fair business model.


'Nuff said.
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby ipanema » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:51 am

Adam_Bove wrote:In other words...just because you're keeping up with the Jones' doesn't mean innovative companies like Steinberg should give it away because you think it's not a fair business model.


'Nuff said.


I never said I considered Steinberg to be an unfair business model. They have had their own reasons to stop supporting earlier OS's just like both you and I who chose to upgrade to C7.5. But you're on Windows so you didn't have to touch your OS.
I have always admired people who don't upgrade/update unless for a good reason. Some people, like yours truly are probably obsessively after new features, versions, etc. in the tools they use to create what they love most: music. I was quite happy with my Atari as well, and I still have it in the garage. I don't suppose you would advise me to exhume it!

I totally understand the difference between WANT and NEED, but as I said, when you WANT something, you feel like you NEED it. And I have no complaints. All I'm saying is that technology is getting scary. Then again, to me it's also exciting. If you can harness your desire, you have nothing to be scared of.

So the way I see it, You and I are on the same page. Maybe it's just that I, even at my age, still can't harness my desire for music technology as much as others...

OK, you're right. 'Nuff said. ;)
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby Adam_Bove » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:08 am

Adam_Bove wrote:In other words...just because you're keeping up with the Jones' doesn't mean innovative companies like Steinberg should give it away because you think it's not a fair business model.


'Nuff said.


This particular comment was directed towards the OP as he talks about coercion and then compares apples to oranges to support his claim...which makes absolutely no sense to me.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. This line of thinking is why many women in the middle east are forced to cover 90% of their bodies. Self control people - take some personal responsibility!
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby sycophant » Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:00 am

Adam_Bove wrote:This line of thinking is why many women in the middle east are forced to cover 90% of their bodies. Self control people - take some personal responsibility!


What are you talking about?

Many Western European countries have immigrants from the middle and near east, including Germany (who by stroke of history, struggled with xenophobia in a way that no other country has).
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby Rudi007 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:40 pm

I just want what I paid for. That is all. Not software that is in a worse condition since to the upgrade..
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Re: With upgrades it is an issue of economics

Postby sonicstate » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:03 am

The value of Cubase is really what it values to you, what you can do with it after many years. It holds the price better than guitar, for example. Because with guitar, after 10 years it will be a bit different, neck may bend a bit, frets will be used.... But Cubase is still exactly the same as it was 10 years ago. If you have exactly the same computer with the same windows, it remains the same forever. So, in this way, software keeps value better than anything else. Because real value is what you can do with it, not for how much you can sell it.
Just stick with xp, and you can use 10yr old Cubase exactly the way you did years ago. Actually, you use it even better now, because computers are more powerful. So, not only is Cubase 100% keeping value over time, but its value is actually increasing, because with Cubase 4 on a new machine you can do more and faster than you were able to do when it came out.
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