[BON-420]Mixdown out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

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[BON-420]Mixdown out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Soul-Burn » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:00 pm

Was working on a remix for a song, so I used Tempo Detection and Set Definition From Tempo to straighten up the track before working. Then I added some midi drums. Timestretch algorithm is set to Elastique pro (time / pitch).

Everything sounds well in Cubase, but when performing a mixdown (realtime or otherwise), the beats do not align as they do in Cubase. Same thing happens, but possibly to a slightly lesser extent, when using the record from stereo out on another channel.
This does no happen when using the Standard - Mix algorithm.

This is very strange and really concerning.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Soul-Burn » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:44 am

More data:
1. Take any sample (I took "Acoustic Emin 095.7" from the media bay).
2. Perform free warp on the sample.
3. Export mixdown to wav.
4. Reimport the wav into the project.
5. Listen to both together, with normal phase and with reversed phase.

If using Standard - Mix, they will be perfectly aligned and reversing phase nulls it.
If using Elastique Pro - Pitch, they are not aligned, reversing phase doesn't null the sound.

This is a very serious issue.

(Using Cubase 7.0.6)
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby RayKosmick » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:22 pm

This is probably the problem I've been *itching about (privately :roll: ) ever since Cubase 6, when I started working with multitrack quantisation of drums a lot. I can't believe the same thing is still going on in Cubase 7.5, three paid versions later (6.5, 7, 7.5)!

Check out screenshots at the following links (can't put images in, 'cause I'd have to reduce them to 700px). They're four screenshots of a bass drum track.

http://www.sur.si/screen1.jpg (two bass drum hits)
http://www.sur.si/screen2.jpg (first bass drum hit, zoomed in)
http://www.sur.si/screen3.jpg (second bass drum hit, zoomed in)
http://www.sur.si/screen4.jpg (second bass drum hit, zoomed in more)

If you look at the screenshots, the tracks from top to bottom are as follows:

1) (GREEN) A QUANTIZED bass drum track, this sounds good and this is how I want the bounces or mixdown to look

2) (YELLOW) A bounced track, using the "Standard - Drums" algorithm. It looks good at the first glance, but is not really the same as the quantized track - check all four screenshots carefully. The first hit is a tiny bit early, and the second one a tiny bit late. Using "Standard - Drums" algorithm produces much better bounces / mixdowns in terms of timing than elastique, but the sound sucks: the artifacts resulting from quantization are quite audible, especially on snare and toms. They're usually not audible in a full mix, but hey, c'mon, what the hell?!

3) (RED) A bounced track, using the "Elastique - Time" algorithm. If you use this algorithm, the artifacts resulting from quantization are NOT audible (yay!), but when you bounce / export these tracks, the results suck donkey balls (pardon my French)! I mean - Elastique TIME algorithm? What kind of "time" is that - look at screens. The first bass drum hit is obviously slightly early, while the second one is quite shockingly LATE. I mean, noticeably so. WTF??!

4, 5, 6) (GREY) These are audio mixdowns using "Elastique - Time" algorithm. 4 is a mono mixdown, 5 is mono mixdown - realtime export, and 6 is a stereo mixdown (just testing). At the first glance they look identical to 3) (RED bounced track), but ARE NOT COMPLETELY identical - check carefully - they're slightly later than the RED bounced track, and consistently so. At least all three grey tracks seem to be identical in terms of timing.

Well, could somebody enlighten me why this has been going on for years and how the heck is it possible?!

OK, now, if the bounces / mixdowns were at least CONSISTENTLY late or early, so that you'd be able to move the whole bounced tracks manually - fine, I'd put up with the trouble of aligning them manually (albeit I'd still *itch about it :)). But this? One kick is early, the next one is damn late, etc. etc. throughout the song. Hundreds of seemingly random delays, hits taking place either too early or too late. Horrible! I mean, what the F*** is Steinberg doing? This drove me nuts two paid versions ago, but I've waited patiently for years for them to fix it. Instead they release a buggy Cubase 7, and in less than a year here goes 7.5, introducing new bugs (for example, GRID DISAPPEARED IN AUDIO EDITOR FREE WARP)... While all the while I've been hoping for snap to tuplets in free warp and multitrack free warp editing! I mean, I rarely ever whine and complain about software, but this is really going too far - what the hell is Steinberg thinking?!
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Soul-Burn » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:12 pm

Posted this also to the General forum. There wasn't seem to be much response.
viewtopic.php?f=181&t=53748

Apparently, Steinberg know about this issue, but don't consider it a big issue, as implied in this thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=24647&hilit=audio+warp+bounce&start=25 .

"Concerning the non-cancellation while using playback with the Free Warp track and an exported file/ doubling tracks:
Please note that the Free Warp tool is a real time tool/ algorithm and we will improve this feature in the future.

But the most important thing is, that the audio export function is absolutely reliable and correct."

They might be "reliable and correct", but they don't represent what you hear when you hit play. My PC sits at 1% CPU usage and could easily handle all these algorithms in real time. Then why do we have a different mixdown/bounce/freeze than playing?!
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby RayKosmick » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:02 pm

Man, I don't even know what the hell they're saying - how is it reliable and correct, when I get random delays when I bounce/export? Do they even know how much fuc**ng pain in the ass this is?

Since the "Standard - Drums" algorithm sucks donkey balls, as it introduces very audible artifacts when quantizing drums, I want to use the "Elastique - Time" algorithm, which sounds good. But tracks can't be bounced or exported properly with that algorithm, because random delays keep occurring. I mean, there is effectively - at least as far as I know - NO EFFECTIVE WAY to export/bounce/mixdown quantized drums, no matter what you do. If the tracks use Elastique, then the random delays are NOTICEABLE. If you use the lousy Standard - Drums algorithm, the delays still occur, but to a lesser degree (yes, they're not noticeable unless you zoom all the way in, but they're still there, damnit!)... and then you end up with audible artifacts. So you're really between a rock and a hard place there.

And another extremely annoying problem, caused by this: if I use the hitpoints of the quantized drum tracks in order to extract midi for sample blending, I effectively end up with UNALLIGNED SNARES, KICKS, TOMS, etc!! A delay of, for example, 10ms between the two snares (the quantized and bounced/exported one) is not really entertaining, in my humble opinion. What the hell? And this has dragged on since Cubase 6, goddamn it, are they crazy? Or am I missing something here or just being weird and obsessive, because I want perfectly aligned drum tracks? Come on, Steinberg, WTF?! This needs to be fixed ASAP! Or just tell us you'll never fix it and I'll fuc*ing stop using Cubase and buy another DAW, I swear. After putting up with all the crap in versions 7 and 7.5 I'm running out of patience FAST. :evil:
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Soul-Burn » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:13 am

I've heard people using external recording devices. Now I understand why.

I'm actually considering using the "ASIO DirectX Full Duplex" driver and record it in another application, if that would help.

Regardless of anything. The export result should sound exactly like what you hear, at least timing-wise.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby RayKosmick » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:34 am

Oh, I've read the whole thread you referenced (thank you very much!), and I finally figured out what they meant by "the audio export function is absolutely reliable and correct" - if you export the same quantized track twice, you get exported tracks that reliably and "correctly" contain the same errors (random delays)! :? (which I also demonstrated in my little "test", described above, when I found that "At least all three grey tracks seem to be identical in terms of timing." - meaning, containing identical errors :D

That post by Steinberg also proves that they don't listen to what people are saying, because "consistently imprecise results" are really not what we want... And it's also sad how long ago that post was made, including the promise that they'd improve the algorithms, and the situation is still the same even in Cubase 7.5 years later.

And I agree with you completely - no matter if it's just five or ten milliseconds. Bounces and exports should be completely precise and not subject to random fluctuation. I can't believe this has been going on for years and nobody seems to care, it's appalling. Am I the only producer here who's really neurotic about fluctuations and artifacts introduced by the DAW without you being aware of it (bordering on OCD :))? Does everybody else tolerate imprecise rendering/exporting/bouncing? :ugeek:
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Grim » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:34 am

Am I the only producer here who's really neurotic about fluctuations and artifacts introduced by the DAW without you being aware of it (bordering on OCD :))? Does everybody else tolerate imprecise rendering/exporting/bouncing? :ugeek:


I tried to say this in response to another post by you already but not sure you understood what I meant....unless I have seriously messed up my testing then calling this problem imprecise rendering/exporting/bouncing is mis-describing it. The bouncing is only what allows you to see that the timing was already out.

So I believe that the issue here is simply that freewarping (or warp quantising) with elastic audio produces a badly timed result. This is not introduced during bouncing/exporting, it is happening as soon as you make any warp movement in the sample editor.
If you record the output of Cubase into another program or physically wired back into another interface input I think you will get the same badly timed result as I did (exactly the same as a bounced version) and this proves that the playback is wrong rather than any rendering.

Note also that the elastic algo also seems to change what it plays with looping or depending where you start playback from making null testing against the live warped track impossible. I can actually get a null of a 4 bar loop on first play of a bounce phase reversed against the elastic track but as soon as it loops it will lose it and restarting from the beginning may not null again (though sometimes might)

Oh and one other thing to be aware of is that the bad timing is not restricted to hits with markers or areas between markers....if you set 3 warp markers close together in the middle of a file and move only the middle one, the other 2 don't even change and in theory material outside of them should be completely unaltered, but recording/bouncing shows that hits outside of those warp markers are also out of time.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby RayKosmick » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:23 am

Yeah, sorry about the confusion due to posting in two similar threads now - I replied to you in the other thread.

Anyway, yeah, I'll go to the studio now and do a bounce phase reversed test on the tracks I've already rendered for testing purposes and compare the warped track with bounces and exports - because, if I understand correctly, you're proposing that the errors are ALREADY contained in the warped track, not introduced during bouncing / exporting (i.e., the warped tracks LOOK precise, but do not really SOUND precise). So in theory, if your supposition is correct, the phase reversed comparison between warped and bounced tracks should result in silence, right?

I don't expect that to turn out to be the fact, since I started doing precise tests about a week ago when I noticed, on an example of a really fast double-stroke hi-hat pattern, that the tracks I had bounced didn't SOUND correct. But they sounded correct when I bounced them again using the "standard - drums" algorithm instead of the "elastique - time" algorithm, as I described in my lengthy post above... Which my test also suggests - that using standard algorithms will result in much better timings than elastique algorithms, but introduce audible artifacts instead. So hence my "between a rock and a hard place" situation, described in the above post.

OK, enough theorising and off to testing, I'll be back with the results.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Grim » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:57 pm

So in theory, if your supposition is correct, the phase reversed comparison between warped and bounced tracks should result in silence, right?


My post clearly says that null testing against the live warped file is impossible. Here it is again.

Note also that the elastic algo also seems to change what it plays with looping or depending where you start playback from making null testing against the live warped track impossible. I can actually get a null of a 4 bar loop on first play of a bounce phase reversed against the elastic track but as soon as it loops it will lose it and restarting from the beginning may not null again (though sometimes might)


You must record the warped track out of Cubase live somehow and null test that against the bounced renders. If you re-import and line it up perfectly I believe that will null.
Retesting the bounces you have done already is not confirming or disproving anything...only recording out of Cubase and comparing this to the bounces will do this.

I don't expect that to turn out to be the fact, since I started doing precise tests about a week ago when I noticed, on an example of a really fast double-stroke hi-hat pattern, that the tracks I had bounced didn't SOUND correct. But they sounded correct when I bounced them again using the "standard - drums" algorithm instead of the "elastique - time" algorithm, as I described in my lengthy post above... Which my test also suggests - that using standard algorithms will result in much better timings than elastique algorithms, but introduce audible artifacts instead.


I wouldn't expect any bounce with elastic to SOUND correct..and I would also expect different algos to sound perfectly correct (and null) But I also think the warped track with elastic algo didn't sound correct. Again the only way to prove or disprove this is to record this track while playing back Cubase....not using any internal bounce or export.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby RayKosmick » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:18 am

Grim wrote:I wouldn't expect any bounce with elastic to SOUND correct..and I would also expect different algos to sound perfectly correct (and null) But I also think the warped track with elastic algo didn't sound correct. Again the only way to prove or disprove this is to record this track while playing back Cubase....not using any internal bounce or export.

I think you're right. Unfortunately I was not able to record the warped track out of Cubase on an external device - don't have the hardware to do that properly, as I will be unable to eliminate all additional noise, level changes, and achieve perfect synchronisation in order to carry out null testing, anyway. So that's out of the question. But I think that from the following results I got you can draw the following conclusions:

a) audiowarp with the standard - drums algorithm is fine (in terms of timing) and works as intended

b) audiowarp with elastique is screwed up, inconsistent, and the problems are INDEED heard during playback. It WILL NOT bounce as you expect it to, because, as you've mentioned:
Grim wrote:Note also that the elastic algo also seems to change what it plays with looping or depending where you start playback from making null testing against the live warped track impossible
.
I don't know if this fact is MORE or LESS horrendous than what I've already thought :)

But you can judge for yourself - and please do let me know if you think I'm still misinterpreting anything.

I apologise for another long post in advance, but what follows is quite an extensive test, so I couldn't make it any shorter if I wanted to show the results.

1) For testing purposes I'll use a quantized snare track, because with it I'll also easily be able to demonstrate what I mean by "artifacts" caused by the "Standard - Drums" algorithm.

This is how the quantized snare track looks:
Image

Here is how it sounds with Elastique - Time algorithm: http://www.sur.si/testis/1-1_(elastique-time).mp3
Here is how it sounds with Standard - Drums algorithm: http://www.sur.si/testis/1-2_(standard-drums).mp3

Note the audible artifacts in the "Standard - Drums" algorithm version (pay attention to the snare's "ring").
Any timing problems introduced during exportation should also be present in these mp3s, obviously, because I had to export them to show them to you... But let's proceed with the reverse phase test to check that out.


2) First let's eliminate the possibility that I can't carry out a reverse phase test - hey, it's always possible :)

- Made sure there were no effects and any plugins whatsoever present in the chain - no inserts, no sends, no master FX, no nothing. So we only have the dry quantized snare mike track that you can hear under 1).
- Duplicated the quantized track, reversed the phase on the second (duplicated) track. Here's what we get:

This is how it looks: Image

Here is how it sounds: http://www.sur.si/testis/2_(phase_reverse).mp3

So I suppose what this proves is that I can carry out a reverse phase test, yay :)


3) Now let's concentrate on the timing issue. First I tried to determine if there are differences between the QUANTIZED SNARE and the BOUNCED QUANTIZED SNARE, using ELASTIQUE - TIME algorithm.

- bounced the second (phase reversed duplicated) track using elastique - time algorithm and replaced the second (phase reversed track) with the bounced track.

This is how it looks: Image

Here is how it sounds: http://www.sur.si/testis/3_(phase_reverse_quantized&elastique).mp3

Ideally we should now be unable to hear anything, as the quantized and bounced quantized tracks should cancel each other out. But they don't - you can clearly hear that, although the differences are extremely minor. That's because we have an additional problem here: if I listen to the result in Cubase, it is, of course, different from what you hear, because what YOU are hearing in the mp3 is actually a comparison with between TWO EXPORTED tracks - as soon as I export it, the original (quantized) snare also gets exported. I assure you I can hear more obvious differences between the two tracks when I play them from Cubase, but right now I don't have an external device to record the playback directly.

But I should be careful with interpretation here - somewhat counterintuitively, regardless of the fact that I can HEAR the playback is different in Cubase than the bounce, this test doesn't actually prove that exportation - in case of elastique - doesn't result in consistent exports: the exportation might always result in identical waves... But even if they're identical, they'll just CONTAIN IDENTICAL UNFORSEEABLE CHANGES from what you SEE on the screen or even hear - because the QUANTIZED TRACK that you're comparing the BOUNCED TRACK to always sounds a little different! This test certainly proves THAT, look here: let's try a real-time export of the same two tracks: http://www.sur.si/testis/3_(phase_reverse_quantized&elastique-REAL-TIME_EXPORT).mp3

Now, despite the fact that "real-time export" should be absolutely precise, I suppose, that sounds even WORSE instead of better for some reason - sounds like Cubase loses increasing amounts of synchronisation here. But it certainly sounds different from the other export, so regardless of WHEN in the process the differences are introduced, there is NO WAY you can trust the results you get from bouncing a track audiowarped with the elastique algorithm. In both cases (both mp3s) there are obviously CONSIDERABLE errors introduced every time you play or bounce the track warped with elastique, it seems.

Furthermore, what is even more horrifying, if you start the export somewhere in the middle, you get this:

- this is the region I exported: Image

- normal export: http://www.sur.si/testis/3-2_(phase_reverse_quantized&elastique).mp3
- real-time export: http://www.sur.si/testis/3-2_(phase_reverse_quantized&elastique-REAL-TIME_EXPORT).mp3

What the F*UCK? Can we even imagine all the implications of this?

Indeed, in Cubase, if I start the playback BEFORE the two tracks occur, the errors seem to be RELATIVELY minor, though much more audible than what you hear in the above mp3s (if I wanted to demonstrate it properly, I'd have to record it with an external device, which I didn't have at the time of the testing. Besides, it doesn't matter much, you can hear the errors anyway). But if you start the playback somewhere in the middle, you can hear the snare track almost normally, which means the two tracks are completely unaligned. Now imagine having drums recorded on 14 tracks, quantizing them, and then bouncing - how many unforeseen "errors" - or "changes", if you will - does that result in? Or what happens if the tracks start outside of the region you're exporting?


4) Now let's test the timing issue in case of STANDARD - DRUMS algorithm.

- bounced the second (phase reversed duplicated) track using standard - drums algorithm.

The results LOOK a tiny bit different: Image

But they obviously sound the same, because the reverse phase test results in silence. Well, that's another problem - why in the hell do the waves look as if they're not perfectly aligned when they obviously are? This doesn't do anything to reassure me that Cubase knows exactly what it's doing :lol:

Here is an export of a random section: http://www.sur.si/testis/4_(phase_reverse_quantized&standard).mp3
This also proves that the Standard - Drums algorithm works correctly and consistently, regardless of where you start exporting. Thankfully!

However, the problem is that the Standard - Drums algorithm introduces audible artifacts (demonstrated under point 1), so I hate using it!!! Hence the proverbial "between a rock and a hard place" situation. As far as I'm concerned, using the elastique algorithm should have the same consistent and predictable results! Otherwise I don't really know why it's even there, if you never know what it'll do - as it is now, it's a bit like a "randomize" button, for crying out loud (OK, I'm exaggerating, but still, c'mon!).


5) That leaves the last thing I wanted to do: compare the two bounces (exports using two different algorithms) to check how different they sound.

- bounced the quantized snare track using elastique - time algorithm.
- bounced the quantized snare track using standard - drums algorithm.
- imported both tracks, aligned them to bar, reversed the phase on one of them.

This is how it looks: Image

Here is how it sounds: http://www.sur.si/testis/5_(phase_reverse_elastique&standard).mp3

Obviously the two bounces are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT (they LOOK different and SOUND different).
Since in point 4 we've already proved that the "Standard - Drums" algorithm works precisely (in terms of time) and consistently, this comparison provides a further proof that the "Elastique - Time" algorithm is horrendously imprecise. The errors seem to be introduced during playback (but changing each time you play the track and also depending on WHERE you start playing the track)... Then for all I know another set of changes may be introduced during exportation (hmmm, I suppose exporting the phase-reversed comparison between a previously exported and a quantized track, like in example 2, even proves that - because, if you look at it that way, that is actually a comparison between TWO EXPORTED tracks - one you reexport and the other you export for the first time, but they should be the same, so exportation should result in silence but it doesn't :))... Bah, this is completely messed up and so confusing I seem to be developing a headache :D

Anyway, there's no way you can predict what exactly you'll get when you export anything edited with elastique algorithm, and that's the worst possible thing in my book.

What I want to do is be able to quantize multitrack drum recordings consistently with audiowarp and produce high-quality results. This should, by all means, be something I can do with Cubase 7.5, and that's what they've also advertised since they introduced audiowarp quantization years ago. Now, what my test proves beyond any doubt is the following:

a) I can't use the Elastique - Time algorithm, because the results are completely unpredictable and WILL result in temporally imprecise exports/bounces. WHEN those imprecisions happen is not important, because the exports/bounces WILL sound differently from what I hear in Cubase while I work (though from what I've seen the tracks may even sound slightly different every time I listen to them, and the very thought of that is so annoying it makes my head spin).

b) While using the Standard - Drums algorithm ensures temporally precise and completely reliable and predictable results, it also introduces very audible artifacts, which is once again extremely undesirable. Yes, I can live with it for now, because the artifacts are usually not audible in a full mix, especially the genres I usually work in (heavy prog, heavy electronic music, rock, guitar-based blues, and so on). But I'm sure I would be totally unable to get away with using the standard drums algorithm in case of extremely dynamic acoustic music or, perish the thought, something that would involve parts with only drums and/or percussion, because in that case the artifacts would certainly be apparent.

I don't even want to imagine all the implications of what I've certainly proved here, especially in cases of extremely precise electronic music etc.

The fact that Cubase 7.5 is unable to deliver completely precise exports with all algorithms is completely unacceptable in my book. I understand that some algorithms are more demanding than the others, but come on: my CPU use when I edit drums is completely negligible regardless of the algorithm used... And at least the results should be totally precise with REAL-TIME EXPORT in ANY AND ALL CASES, which I've just proven they are NOT BY A LONG SHOT!

And what p*sses me off even more is that Steinberg hasn't addressed this problem for years, and in 7.5 this is still broken. Hell, they haven't even ACKNOWLEDGED properly that the problem exists!

I'd love to hear someone else's thoughts on this, but the above "novelette" is such an epic read I don't think anybody will bother... And until Steinberg doesn't give a damn the situation will remain the same regardless of how much testing I do and how I do it. I can just get a bumper sticker saying "Elastique algorithm sucks donkey balls" and get it over with :D
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Grim » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:41 pm

Ha........I think perhaps information overload for the majority of people but kudos to you for trying!!

Anyhow we are agreed on all points regarding the innaccuracy, but there is one slight difference between our tests;

Regarding bouncedown with the drums standard (or mix standard) algo....my bounce waveform actually does look identical as well as sounding it and is perfectly aligned to the live warped track.

Anyway....No doubt we'll be repeating all this again in 2015 when someone else realises for the first time how bad it is and starts a new thread ;)
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby RayKosmick » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:23 pm

Grim wrote:Regarding bouncedown with the drums standard (or mix standard) algo....my bounce waveform actually does look identical as well as sounding it and is perfectly aligned to the live warped track.

Yeah, I certainly don't know where THAT came from - the two tracks certainly sound identical (I mean, reversing the phase does produce silence), but they don't LOOK perfectly aligned. Maybe it's a new "feature" introduced by Cubase 7.5 :lol: :twisted:

Grim wrote:Anyway....No doubt we'll be repeating all this again in 2015 when someone else realises for the first time how bad it is and starts a new thread

I'm sure you're right. Actually the first time I noticed this was as soon as I quantized my first multitrack recording of drums a few years ago, in Cubase 6.0, I think. Back then I remember searching the net and finding something about "using the Standard - Drums" algorithm instead, which I did, hoping they'd fix the elastique algorithm every time a new version of Cubase or a regular update came out.

But I nearly popped my lid when I bought and installed version 7.5, tested it yet again, and realised it was still happening. I mean, for crying out loud! Fix this already! I for one would certainly appreciate it if the current bug collection was eradicated before more pretty pictures of instruments I can use to spruce up my tracks are added (I'm sure Cubase 8.0 will include an extensive library of COLOUR pictures of instruments of every kind, I can hardly wait... Another idea for version 8.5: please include 3-D eye candy and make it so that Cubase no longer works without a high-end triple Geforce and an extra PSU to power it, we really need THAT. :evil:)
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Headlands » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:13 pm

I empathize completely with others' frustration about this major problem. It's literally been years without a fix from Steinberg.

What is needed: No new visual gimmicks, no new VSTis, no new features to please the video game crowd, etc., until these basic foundations of the software are made solid. I'm not holding my breath, and have decided to - finally - make a change for that reason. Will still be on Cubase for some existing projects, of course.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby islandmusicpro » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:25 pm

Hi all,
for what it is worth: I have the same issue with (partially) audio warped tracks using that algorithm slowly drifting out of sync.
When you start/stop playback, it's all good at first, then it starts to slowly drift again, bounce, export or live playback doesn't make a difference.
No need to reiterate how irritating this is.

All the best,
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Bach » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:19 am

Confirmed here .
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby lukasbrooklyn » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:52 am

similar discussions have been going down for some time, it's flakey programming / implementation. you can either set up a group and record realtime the output of that group, or not use the feature and hope steinberg get their programming together (not likely i'm afraid).

it would be interesting to hear how the elastique works in, say, reaper, and whether this could be down to the elastique algo's (not DAW-dependant), or it really is the actual SB ill-implementation of it.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby droutloaf » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:48 am

I avoid elastique like the plague because of all the reasons mentioned but I feel compelled to recommend that you not use any stretching for multitrack drum(or any multi-Mic'd instrument) as the algorithms don't maintain phase coherency. I'd honestly just stick to the old "slip edit" method. I'm sure that one day we'll get a phase-accurate multitrack warp tool in the future though.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby Grim » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:41 pm

you can either set up a group and record realtime the output of that group


If you actually tested this and got results different from mine (same out of time recorded file as the internal bounces)please explain exactly how you did it and show results.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby RayKosmick » Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:11 pm

droutloaf wrote:I'm sure that one day we'll get a phase-accurate multitrack warp tool in the future though.


I wish - been waiting for that to happen for YEARS. But it looks like other stuff has absolute priority - for example, thrilling and crucial new solutions like pretty pictures of instruments and new toy appz for smart phones etc. ;)
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby leroo » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:28 am

Hi,
first, sorry for my english, I mainly speak french.

I've just do the test with Live 9 and the same thing happened.

Imported a drum loop (supposed to be at 81 bpm) at 112 bpm, bounced it, re-import in live, reverse phase on one track, loop...... most of the time, the sound is half-cancelled, sometimes, not cancelled at all, and sometimes full cancelled.

I did the exact same test in cubase 7.5 (with the same drum loop at the same speed) and the result are exactly the same.
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby lukasbrooklyn » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:33 pm

Grim wrote:
you can either set up a group and record realtime the output of that group


If you actually tested this and got results different from mine (same out of time recorded file as the internal bounces)please explain exactly how you did it and show results.


i only do that since realtime warp tweaks produce a waveform on the event that does not match what is actually being sent to the output. this way, by recapturing the audio stream via a group, and an audiotrack recording the output of that group, i am just ensuring the waveform and the output stream is 1:1 down to sample-precision. naturally, any oddities in the stretch algorithm will still persist.

viewtopic.php?f=196&t=37118
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby DanielAyo » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:07 am

lukasbrooklyn wrote:
Grim wrote:
you can either set up a group and record realtime the output of that group


If you actually tested this and got results different from mine (same out of time recorded file as the internal bounces)please explain exactly how you did it and show results.


i only do that since realtime warp tweaks produce a waveform on the event that does not match what is actually being sent to the output. this way, by recapturing the audio stream via a group, and an audiotrack recording the output of that group, i am just ensuring the waveform and the output stream is 1:1 down to sample-precision. naturally, any oddities in the stretch algorithm will still persist.

viewtopic.php?f=196&t=37118


Turns audio editing into a farce on Cubase quite frankly... :evil:
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby theother » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:09 pm

This is a known problem for a while. Steinberg should be more open about it.

The moment you 'print' any time warp tracks that use Elastique, audio gets shifted all over the place. It completely ruins your audio track and edits.

I contacted Steinberg about this months ago and they said it's not an easy fix because Elastique is not an in-house product and licensed from another company.

I don't know why, but they said it won't be fixed any time soon.

Kind of ridiculous, right?
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Re: Mixdown is out of sync when using Elastique algorithm

Postby DanielAyo » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:01 am

theother wrote:This is a known problem for a while. Steinberg should be more open about it.

The moment you 'print' any time warp tracks that use Elastique, audio gets shifted all over the place. It completely ruins your audio track and edits.

I contacted Steinberg about this months ago and they said it's not an easy fix because Elastique is not an in-house product and licensed from another company.

I don't know why, but they said it won't be fixed any time soon.


Kind of ridiculous, right?


It's quite depressing actually. Recently bought Wavelab Elements for mastering purposes. I'll have to use it for basic editing as well.
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