One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

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One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Svenne » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:56 pm

In the "Version History" pdf it is stated that:
"The main Control Room section can now be displayed together with the metering section."

I interpret this as that the Control Room tab and the Meter tab can be viewed side by side. I am at a loss, however, how this is accomplished. I can't find any further information about the subject. Neither in the "Version History" pdf, nor in the new "New Features" pdf.

A bit of help would be appreciated.
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby SteveInChicago » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:58 pm

This is so cool. Click the Meter tab, there's a little button in the top right labeled "CR"
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Svenne » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:54 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:This is so cool. Click the Meter tab, there's a little button in the top right labeled "CR"

Many thanks SteveInChicago. Steinbergs has one again, unfortunately, managed to wreak a great idea with an ill conceived implementation.

I was hoping that it would allow viewing of the Control Room tab and the Meter tab side by side, which would have been great.

Steinbergs way of implementing it by showing half the Control Room tab and half the Mixer tab, is definitely a half measure. It's pretty useless as it defeats the whole point of the feature; not having to constantly switch between the tabs.

I was hoping to be able to have the Control Room tab and the Loudness meter viewable simultaneously. Half the Control Room tab is of little use since you can't access important parts like the Cue sends and Monitors. The metering section is even worse. The only part of the meter that is shown, is the least important; the bargraph.

With Loudness monitoring it's the hidden parts of the meter that are really important. You can lose the bargraph all together. As a matter of fact, that there are third-party loudness meters that omits the bargraph, because it's of little importance.

So having a panel with half the Control Room is of little use. Then showing the unimportant part of the meter, while hiding the important parts, makes it totally useless. Sorry Steinberg, but it's back to the drawing-board with this one. This time you really shot yourselves in the foot (to make a direct translation of a common Swedish expression).
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby marQs » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:44 pm

Well, I like the current implementaion. When mixing I can see the meter now instead of the mixingwise useless cue sends. But I'll repeat that over and over again: I'd be an absolute fan of options! I.e. the option to have CR + meter side by side ;) - which in my case wouldn't be used, got the mixer on 22" and simply not enough space for all of that.

What about using the 2nd or 3rd mixer and make it display CR or metering only?
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Centralmusic » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:52 pm

ok, here´s another one...

I would like to see Track Visibility side by side with the Inspector (!)

:!:
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby marQs » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:58 pm

... and another one: I'd like to have real keycommands for show/hide channel selector + cr/meter, not just a command for the window layout dialogue...
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby delta » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:03 pm

"I was hoping that it would allow viewing of the Control Room tab and the Meter tab side by side, which would have been great.

Steinbergs way of implementing it by showing half the Control Room tab and half the Mixer tab, is definitely a half measure. It's pretty useless as it defeats the whole point of the feature; not having to constantly switch between the tabs


You can add a dedicated (extra) controlroom in VST connections (F4)

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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Centralmusic » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:08 pm

yes, this is a solution.
And here are three kind of mixers whit in cubase: you can hide track view e.g., so that you can see only the control room.


.
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Svenne » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:54 am

delta wrote:You can add a dedicated (extra) controlroom in VST connections (F4)

I¨m afraid you're wrong. What your arrow is pointing at the the Control Room Activation button. Deactivate it and your have no Control Room at all. It does not give you an extra Control Room.

Of cause you can activate a second mixer, if you care to have your screens littered with mixers. I don't. Then it's a much better idea to invest in a third-party meter, or use Steinbergs free SLM128 plug-in.

What was pointing at was that showing the wrong part of the loudness meter, makes it useless. Anyone who thinks that the numbers beneath the bargraph are unimportant haven't got the faintest notion what loudness metering is about.

Those who continue to rely on peak metering, and squashing their mixes in the belief that they sound better (louder) are setting themselves up for bitter disappointment. The entire broadcast industry and most of radio and Internet streaming outlets have adopted the EBU R128 Standards (EUR) and the ATSC A185 Standard (US).

While Peak metering measures peaks (as the name suggests), Loudness metering measures loudness over time. This means that the bargraph is of little consequence. What is important are the LU/LUFS values and True Peak values that are hidden in Steinbergs implementation of the combined Control Room/Metering view. That is what renders Steinbergs implementation useless!
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Brock » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:13 am

SteveInChicago wrote:This is so cool. Click the Meter tab, there's a little button in the top right labeled "CR"

Totally dig this!
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby HughH » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:17 am

Svenne wrote:
delta wrote:You can add a dedicated (extra) controlroom in VST connections (F4)

I¨m afraid you're wrong. What your arrow is pointing at the the Control Room Activation button. Deactivate it and your have no Control Room at all. It does not give you an extra Control Room.

Of cause you can activate a second mixer, if you care to have your screens littered with mixers. I don't.


Maybe delta was referring to adding another Control Room under the "devices" menu.
That's what I do.
No need to have additional mixers. The independent CR is completely sizable -leave you mixer meters intact.

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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Starsprinkler » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:22 am

Svenne wrote:
delta wrote:You can add a dedicated (extra) controlroom in VST connections (F4)

I¨m afraid you're wrong. What your arrow is pointing at the the Control Room Activation button. Deactivate it and your have no Control Room at all. It does not give you an extra Control Room.

Yes, but click on the e-button instead.... you then got an extra Control Room in a separate window.
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby delta » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:47 am


Svenne » 09 Apr 2014 23:54
delta wrote:You can add a dedicated (extra) controlroom in VST connections (F4)

I¨m afraid you're wrong. What your arrow is pointing at the the Control Room Activation button. Deactivate it and your have no Control Room at all. It does not give you an extra Control Room.


See attach

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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Svenne » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:26 am

Starsprinkler wrote:Yes, but click on the e-button instead.... you then got an extra Control Room in a separate window.

Why didn't you point the arrow at the e-button then?

Anyway, that's beside the point. I've never denied that it is possible to show multiple Control Room/Mixer Panels in extra Mixer windows and/or free-floating windows. This discussion is about Steinbergs implementation of the combined CR/Meter view.

That there are workarounds does not negate the fact that Steinberg screwed up the implementation of this particular feature!

This isn't the first time Steinbergs developers/programmers has rendered great features unusable by screwing up the implementation, neither. Steinbergs development department would do good to talk to engineers and musicians (i.e. the people who are supposed to use their products in the real world) before implementing new features. I believe it's called market research, and is used by most manufactures outside software development.
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Lydiot » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:08 pm

Svenne wrote:
SteveInChicago wrote:This is so cool. Click the Meter tab, there's a little button in the top right labeled "CR"

Many thanks SteveInChicago. Steinbergs has one again, unfortunately, managed to wreak a great idea with an ill conceived implementation.


Svenne wrote:With Loudness monitoring it's the hidden parts of the meter that are really important. You can lose the bargraph all together. As a matter of fact, that there are third-party loudness meters that omits the bargraph, because it's of little importance.

So having a panel with half the Control Room is of little use. Then showing the unimportant part of the meter, while hiding the important parts, makes it totally useless. Sorry Steinberg, but it's back to the drawing-board with this one. This time you really shot yourselves in the foot (to make a direct translation of a common Swedish expression).


The people developing the app are neither using it professionally nor listening to the users or understanding what they're asking for.

No surprise here.
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Buchanan » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:55 am

The people developing the app are neither using it professionally nor listening to the users or understanding what they're asking for.


So apply for a job darling. You're obviously a candidate. Tell them how to do it properly. :mrgreen:
They do have a jobs section on the main site. You go fix Cubase for us poor amateurs who can't stop Cubase from working. :mrgreen:
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Svenne » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:16 am

Lydiot wrote:nor listening to the users

I'm not sure that this is completely accurate. There are instances when they do listen. People have been nagging, from day one of the release of CB 7.0, about the option to delete an entry from the "Recent Files" in the the Steinberg Hub. Now, more than a year later, we've finally got it!

So, there are occasions when they do listen. But when they do, they take a long, long, long, long, long time to react. ;)
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Svenne » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:25 am

Buchanan wrote:
The people developing the app are neither using it professionally nor listening to the users or understanding what they're asking for.


So apply for a job darling. You're obviously a candidate. Tell them how to do it properly. :mrgreen:
They do have a jobs section on the main site. You go fix Cubase for us poor amateurs who can't stop Cubase from working. :mrgreen:

In a way, your correct. If Steinberg were to put together an advisory panel of people actually using their products, in the real world, and consulted this panel during the design state, something amazing might happen. All the great ideas that the programmers and designers come up with, might actually be usable in the real world. Wouldn't that be a revolutionary concept?

At least in software development. Other branches has done it for more than a century!
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Buchanan » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:38 pm

Svenne wrote:
Buchanan wrote:
The people developing the app are neither using it professionally nor listening to the users or understanding what they're asking for.


So apply for a job darling. You're obviously a candidate. Tell them how to do it properly. :mrgreen:
They do have a jobs section on the main site. You go fix Cubase for us poor amateurs who can't stop Cubase from working. :mrgreen:

In a way, your correct. If Steinberg were to put together an advisory panel of people actually using their products, in the real world, and consulted this panel during the design state, something amazing might happen. All the great ideas that the programmers and designers come up with, might actually be usable in the real world. Wouldn't that be a revolutionary concept?

At least in software development. Other branches has done it for more than a century!


So. We're all businessmen. You write to Steinberg management suggesting the idea and see if they're interested. They certainly won't make any business decisions based on any posts I see here though. They will need a plan and strategy of course plus an idea of the budget involved.
Oh, no. A horrible thought just descended. They don't actually know how to do programming for music applications!? Horror! And certainly Steinberg's programmers have never been out of the bedroom for decades! They don't even listen to music! Cubase is a software design program to make pancakes! Stupid me! :lol:
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Svenne » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:37 pm

Buchanan wrote:We're all businessmen.

Are we? If I were to ignore my customers and adopt an "I don't-care-what-you-want,-I-know-best" attitude, I guarantee you that any repeat business would dry up in no time. And any new business aswell, as soon as word gets around.

"They certainly won't make any business decisions based on any posts I see here though"
Well, they ignore the views expressed by their customers (those that keep the company alive) here at their own peril.
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Buchanan » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:03 pm

Svenne wrote:
Buchanan wrote:We're all businessmen.

Are we? If I were to ignore my customers and adopt an "I don't-care-what-you-want,-I-know-best" attitude, I guarantee you that any repeat business would dry up in no time. And any new business aswell, as soon as word gets around.

"They certainly won't make any business decisions based on any posts I see here though"
Well, they ignore the views expressed by their customers (those that keep the company alive) here at their own peril.


"I don't care what YOU want, I know best..." !? Well who exactly DOES "know best"? I haven't seen anyone yet. I wasn't aware that Cubase was a custom built program. MOST companies, Steinberg included, make a product that they know how to make, put it on the market and if it's total dirt no one buys it. People don't buy cars to constantly moan about them. They drive. Some might make suggestions but they don't expect the company to be slave to their every last whim and desire. If the company, for any reason, doesn't make the colour car they want they get over it and continue driving. They don't sit in the showroom coffee corner moaning all day.
If the very few customers who complain clearly have NO IDEA about how to make a car (or about basic computing and programming) or the mechanics involved why should the company listen? Nobody
in a business as successful as Steinberg listens to the business plans of those who don't know what that business (even their own business) involves. You make what you can. It sells or you go out of business. I don't see Steinberg / Yamaha going out of business just yet. But what's the point of complaining to a doomed company then?
Every so often, agreed they MUST see a good idea here, by my reckoning, one per decade.
Anyway this forum is a great place to keep serial complainers because no one else in the world sees their comments. :mrgreen: Only the plusone-ers.
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Lydiot » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:28 pm

Buchanan wrote: Well who exactly DOES "know best"? I haven't seen anyone yet.


If you market a product as being able to do loudness monitoring, then those values should be seen lest the function is useless.

If you modify your product to show more information at the expense of the above then the above is void whenever that condition is in effect. It's thus either or.

The original poster is right in his criticism (if factually correct), and I am correct in that the design is flawed for that reason. It's a very simple choice to make regarding the design of the feature; vertical or horizontal, and what are the effects of either.

The basic problem is that the redesign of the CR GUI was dumb. Rather than enhance Cubendo capability by adding the CR "pane" to the traditional mixer view they got rid of the latter at the expense of the former, which to my knowledge not a single user has asked for. They left a traditional, intuitive, internally consistent view of a mixer (which is what the CR is) in favour of this. Not a single person has been able to explain exactly what was gained by that, assuming for a second that less flexibility for viewing and more clicking is not a benefit to the user.
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby iBM » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:19 pm

A mixer is a mixer, and should look like a ......................mixer (as my uncle says). Including the Control Room MIXER (as his nephew says) ;)

I'm 100% with Lydiot and the OP.
The "other" guy is just picking a fight, in which he can do elsewhere IMO.
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Svenne » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:45 pm

Buchanan wrote:MOST companies, Steinberg included, make a product that they know how to make, put it on the market.

On the contrary. A business that does this will go bust pretty soon. MOST businesses spend lots of money on market research before the product goes into the design phase. It's easy; design a product that lives up to the customers expectations and they will buy it; design one that don't and they won't.

This is where Steinberg, unfortunately, falls short. It's far more work to change the brand of DAW, than the band of pots & pans or car that you use. Despite this, I am sure that Steinbergs neglect of their customers criticisms will impact on their sales, if already has (I don't have access to their corporate sales figures).

I may sound overly critical to some, but rest assured. I consider Cubase the best DAW out there (which I'm sorry I can't say about WLE, which a very good example of the mess that is an inevitable result of ignoring your customers).

Cubase is a good product. If they would listen to their customers and get some of the messed up features (VariAudio, Expression Maps, VST Connect, etc.) to work correctly in the real world. It would be an astonishing product.

iBM wrote:A mixer is a mixer, and should look like a ......................mixer

Except when Steinbergs designers design it, I guess. ;)
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Re: One little feature question regarding 7.5.20

Postby Graham_Simmonds » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:43 pm

Svenne wrote:
Buchanan wrote:If they would listen to their customers and get some of the messed up features (VariAudio, Expression Maps, VST Connect, etc.) to work correctly in the real world. It would be an astonishing product.
iBM wrote:A mixer is a mixer, and should look like a ......................mixer

Except when Steinbergs designers design it, I guess. ;)


I think that Steinberg do listen to their customers, and we enjoy regular updates as a result. Someone has already posted a means of showing the meter and Control room mixer side by side which I found extremely helpful and is a very suitable solution to the OP's original query.

After 30 years of use, Cubase as it has become so much a part of my creative life that I have ceased to have an opinion about it. It just is. I invest in the upgrades and constantly discover new features that demonstrate to me that real care and thought has gone into its design over all of that time. And I know that the development team work tirelessly to improve its stability.

I often think there are a group of Cubase forum users who seem to spend their lives "testing" Cubase and howl with joy when they find a supposed problem that I will probably never experience. And you know what? I simply do not care about how this or that inconsequential bug hampers their "workflow" (God how I hate that meaningless word).

I think computers and musicians are not great fellows and a lot of the comment I see here is damning evidence that you cannot necessarily be good at both. Cubase is an incredibly complex programme which I am still learning after all these years. My sole advantage over some here is that I possess the necessary patience with it to get the end result that I want.
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