I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Guest »

It's not just recording new material that will lose a comp. Two more things will:

1. Moving/copying an event to one of your lanes will make that new event the "active take" for the duration of its length. If it's a long event, it can wipe out your whole comp. There is a workaround though: mute the event before moving it and the comp will be preserved (until...)

2. If there is a long, inactive part in one of your lanes and you click it, it becomes active and the existing comp is lost. I know this is by design, and you can always undo.. but you can only undo if you saw that you made an error! An accidental click on a cluttered screen in a big project can easily go unnoticed... So a single click can wipe out a whole comp...
Last edited by Guest on Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Crotchety »

FunkyDrummer wrote:2. If there is a long, inactive part in one of your lanes and you click it, it becomes active and the existing compe is lost.
Hey, FD, are you not suffering a C5 hangover there, mate? I'm familiar with what you describe. At first, I was very reluctant to cut up my pristine events but it was clearly going against the new regime to try and preserve this as I kept coming up with the problems you're encountering.

Going with the grain, all lanes are snipped at the same place (Snap To Zero is definitely out here). Let it, it works out okay in the end and stops long events masking others and screwing up the comp. Once happy, you can glue adjacent events back together before 'Delete Overlaps', etc.

I know you can partially reveal events and that's handy I suppose but in the end you're going to have to x-fade, which involves cutting, so you might as well do it at the start as later.

Resistance is...confusing!

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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Crotchety »

COMPING Preserving Multiple Takes.JPG
(133.61 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Does this do it for you?

I've got two Channels of takes, each independently comped. If you Solo Defeat the backing channels (just the click-track here and you may need to manually enable VSTi outputs) you can Ctrl-Solo between comps (forces Exclusive Solo).

At the end of the second section you can see where I've cut across all takes to replace the end of take 1, showing that multi-take editing is easy enough by selecting more than one set of events (which can be collapsed to make them easier to manage). I needed to use the Mute Tool here so colour-coded the event I had been using.

I don't know whether this use of the Mute Tool gets us anywhere. Anyway, I've ended up with a nice little project to do out of this so I'll be giving this a proper road-test over the next few days and thought I'd leave it with you in the meantime.

Cheers,
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by JHP »

A.j. wrote:After working with C6's redesigned lanes for a couple weeks, I'm beginning to get it. It's different, but - in many common situations, like vocal comping - it's more efficient than the old way (IMO). Just takes getting used to.

I've also been able to use the lanes feature with more "complicated" comps where I create whole new arrangements by copying/pasting existing audio clips. It works - differently, but it works. [Although I do wish I could drag-copy audio clips onto a new lane (at the bottom). That should be fixed - otherwise, we're forced to drop clips onto existing lanes which causes the lanes to shift, a visually jarring experience which many users will likely find confusing.]

However, there is one problem with this new system that REALLY worries me, and has kept me from using C6 thus far with paying clients. It's so problematic, that I can't believe it wasn't addressed during C6's internal design phase. Specifically, after I've completed comping a track (or group of tracks) with lanes, HOW DO I RECORD ADDITIONAL TAKE(S) WITHOUT INSTANTLY LOSING MY COMP (and all that hard work)?

[Edit for clarity's sake: The audio takes themselves are not gone, rather the highlighted choices of which sections of audio I've carefully chosen for playback by clicking on them - e.g. the comp itself - are no longer visible).

Here's a recent example:

I've finished comping a complicated set of drum takes. This kind of stuff can take hours.... thankfully now with Group Edit, it's easier - but it's still often painstaking work. Before the client signs off on the drums, the drummer wants to try playing "just one last take!" before we settle on the final performance. I hit record, the drummer plays the tune one last time. When he's done, MY ENTIRE COMP - which took hours to create - is GONE, replaced by the drummer's new take at the bottom of the lanes. [Edit, again for clarity: Just to be clear - the earlier takes are still shown (they haven't disappeared), rather they have all become transparent again. All evidence of the comp choices I made - that is, the comp work I did earlier by clicking on various audio segments in the various lanes - is gone.]

This is unusable for me. I need to be able to comp, record some more, comp those new takes, and then - perhaps - record more and comp again, all the while building and refining my comp. The old lanes behavior allowed this. C6 does not. And I simply cannot wait until all client recording is done before creating comps. It's not how things work here in the real world with clients, where we often comp as we go (and then record again - as most engineers know, it's often the process of comping that reveals what areas need to be re-recorded). Yes, I know there are workarounds- creating an entire set of new tracks for recording the post-comp takes sort of works. But that creates other frustrating problems, which aren't even worth mentioning as they are obviously just workarounds.

Steinberg's products have always been known for their industry-leading non-destructive editing. So this new lanes design - where recording a new take instantly removes the entire comp, with no undo available - is a real head scratcher. What say you, Steinberg? Every pro audio engineer I know works this way. I'd say this problem is a high priority to fix.

Aj
Hi Aj,
Here is a worklow suggestion regarding comp protection using "Events To Part". Parts can be dissolved to events with "Dissolve Part". Different Parts cannot be combined with "Evetns To Part" but can be glued together. In a part your comp is safe. By double clicking on a part you can change the comp inside it.

At a certain point I am comping comps but can always be sure that my original comps will remain if I glue the parts back together.
AProtectingComps.gif
(62.99 MiB) Not downloaded yet
I would suggest to reproduce what I am doing in the gif to get the hang of the workflow and moves.

You can also use the "Bounce Selection" command to create one file and event out of a comp.

Gr,
JHP
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Crotchety »

Parts! Now why didn't I think of that - use 'em all the time. Thanks JHP, looks useful.
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by A.j. »

Thanks for joining in here JHP, and thank you especially for taking the time to create that detailed animated .gif.

It's busy here today, and I've only had a brief moment to check in with this (very active!) thread. When I get a breather later, I'll try out these new ideas and report back. Helpful stuff...

Aj
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Kev Vin »

Once again jhp to the rescue. Its posts like these that keep me coming back. Super informative.

Many thanks for the gif.. No manual could've explained half as well.

One question. How does this translate to multiple track comping? More specifically can edits made in the part editor be 'grouped to other parts on grouped tracks?

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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by A.j. »

Kev Vin wrote:One question. How does this translate to multiple track comping? More specifically can edits made in the part editor be 'grouped to other parts on grouped tracks?
Curious about this too...
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by JBS »

Thanks JHP! I've been using Cubase for 6 years and never really understood the parts thing. So glad you made that gif and explained how to glue the parts to save comps. I just upgraded to CB6 to take advantage of group editing features but this thread made me nervous about re-tracking over comps (which I do all the time when tracking vocals). Now I know how to keep them safe! Awesome tip thanks again.
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by alexis »

bookmarking.
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by hkh »

JHP wrote: I would suggest to reproduce what I am doing in the gif to get the hang of the workflow and moves.
Messy workaround, doesent work for me...


The manual and auto - mode suggestion is a good one, that would fix this bug.....
untill then I´m on v5

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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Guest »

hkh wrote:
JHP wrote: I would suggest to reproduce what I am doing in the gif to get the hang of the workflow and moves.
Messy workaround,
Yep - once again we have to do more work, in order to out-smart the new automatic features.

Parts are fantastic, don't get me wrong, but maybe the following would work better as a long term solution: (?)

- If the audio track is empty when you record new audio, then the new event is made "active" (as now).
- If the track is not empty, then the new audio event is made "inactive"

You wouldn't lose your comp (when when you copy an inactive part to a track with a comp on it, it doesn't destroy it), plus you wouldn't need to mess around with parts. Would that work in practice? Just an idea.

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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Guest »

Crotchety wrote: Hey, FD, are you not suffering a C5 hangover there, mate? I'm familiar with what you describe. At first, I was very reluctant to cut up my pristine events but it was clearly going against the new regime to try and preserve this as I kept coming up with the problems you're encountering.

Resistance is...confusing!

:D
I think that you and I use audio tracks for different purposes :) That's cool, I respect that :)
Sometimes, I do exactly what you describe and it works great!! It really rocks. I had lots of bass takes to comp just now and it made life much easier. I do use this "type" of track. But at least in equal measure I use audio tracks to play samples and FX, some short, some very long, some repeated bits, bits of delay bounces, vocal loops, chopped up madness... this audio is not multiple "takes" of the same thing in the traditional loop-recording sense. It's not multiple attempts at a musical idea, so chop these up at identical points makes no sense whatsoever!

So I think until you have tried to use audio tracks for this type of thing then you won't fully appreciate what the problem is.... As for "resistance" - I welcome new features with open arms but I am a firm believer that a map should fit the terrain, not the other way round! When a mistake is made drawing a map, you shouldn't then go and demolish a hill in order to make the map look "correct". It wouldn't matter to all map users, that occasional missing hill, but it matters to the hillwalkers! Can one size fit all? Of course not. This is not Soviet Russia (after all, in Soviet Russia, DAW comps YOU :D ) .

One size cannot fit all - we need options please :) Thanks for listening. Now flame at will...

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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Conman »

I welcome new features with open arms but I am a firm believer that a map should fit the terrain, not the other way round! When a mistake is made drawing a map, you shouldn't then go and demolish a hill in order to make the map look "correct". It wouldn't matter to all map users, that occasional missing hill, but it matters to the hillwalkers! Can one size fit all? Of course not. This is not Soviet Russia (after all, in Soviet Russia, DAW comps YOU
This sentence makes it look like you're deliberately looking for problems that aren't there. Come on. What's all the raving about? Is this Soviet America? :mrgreen: So sue them.
The problem here seems to have been resolved at least partly.
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Elektrobolt »

I wonder if a "Comp Preset" system would be possible?
(So that way you could create, store and recall different "choices" from the same set of recordings.)

Maybe that's not possible because of the split/join functionality?
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by JHP »

A.j. wrote:
Kev Vin wrote:One question. How does this translate to multiple track comping? More specifically can edits made in the part editor be 'grouped to other parts on grouped tracks?
Curious about this too...
Thank you for the positive feedback about the gif. :)
The functionality is also there for multitrack comping. In the part editor the events can be independently edited and the folder track grouping feature does not apply. You can dissolve the parts if you would like to change the comp.
Here is a gif that shows multitrack comp protection:
AProtectingMultiTrackComps.gif
(35.44 MiB) Not downloaded yet
Gr,
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Attn JHP, Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by everettwatson »

Hi JHP,
I watched your gif about using Events to Part to keep selected audio snipets together during the comping process. But here is my question. In your video, when you selected the parts to keep, highlighted the section, then excecuted the Events to Part from the menu, what happens to all the "un-selected" audio segements that were not selected during the comping process. Look like some of them might have been moved to Lane 1 but some of them dissappeared all together.
Thanks
JHP wrote:
A.j. wrote:After working with C6's redesigned lanes for a couple weeks, I'm beginning to get it. It's different, but - in many common situations, like vocal comping - it's more efficient than the old way (IMO). Just takes getting used to.

I've also been able to use the lanes feature with more "complicated" comps where I create whole new arrangements by copying/pasting existing audio clips. It works - differently, but it works. [Although I do wish I could drag-copy audio clips onto a new lane (at the bottom). That should be fixed - otherwise, we're forced to drop clips onto existing lanes which causes the lanes to shift, a visually jarring experience which many users will likely find confusing.]

However, there is one problem with this new system that REALLY worries me, and has kept me from using C6 thus far with paying clients. It's so problematic, that I can't believe it wasn't addressed during C6's internal design phase. Specifically, after I've completed comping a track (or group of tracks) with lanes, HOW DO I RECORD ADDITIONAL TAKE(S) WITHOUT INSTANTLY LOSING MY COMP (and all that hard work)?

[Edit for clarity's sake: The audio takes themselves are not gone, rather the highlighted choices of which sections of audio I've carefully chosen for playback by clicking on them - e.g. the comp itself - are no longer visible).

Here's a recent example:

I've finished comping a complicated set of drum takes. This kind of stuff can take hours.... thankfully now with Group Edit, it's easier - but it's still often painstaking work. Before the client signs off on the drums, the drummer wants to try playing "just one last take!" before we settle on the final performance. I hit record, the drummer plays the tune one last time. When he's done, MY ENTIRE COMP - which took hours to create - is GONE, replaced by the drummer's new take at the bottom of the lanes. [Edit, again for clarity: Just to be clear - the earlier takes are still shown (they haven't disappeared), rather they have all become transparent again. All evidence of the comp choices I made - that is, the comp work I did earlier by clicking on various audio segments in the various lanes - is gone.]

This is unusable for me. I need to be able to comp, record some more, comp those new takes, and then - perhaps - record more and comp again, all the while building and refining my comp. The old lanes behavior allowed this. C6 does not. And I simply cannot wait until all client recording is done before creating comps. It's not how things work here in the real world with clients, where we often comp as we go (and then record again - as most engineers know, it's often the process of comping that reveals what areas need to be re-recorded). Yes, I know there are workarounds- creating an entire set of new tracks for recording the post-comp takes sort of works. But that creates other frustrating problems, which aren't even worth mentioning as they are obviously just workarounds.

Steinberg's products have always been known for their industry-leading non-destructive editing. So this new lanes design - where recording a new take instantly removes the entire comp, with no undo available - is a real head scratcher. What say you, Steinberg? Every pro audio engineer I know works this way. I'd say this problem is a high priority to fix.

Aj
Hi Aj,
Here is a worklow suggestion regarding comp protection using "Events To Part". Parts can be dissolved to events with "Dissolve Part". Different Parts cannot be combined with "Evetns To Part" but can be glued together. In a part your comp is safe. By double clicking on a part you can change the comp inside it.

At a certain point I am comping comps but can always be sure that my original comps will remain if I glue the parts back together.
AProtectingComps.gif
I would suggest to reproduce what I am doing in the gif to get the hang of the workflow and moves.

You can also use the "Bounce Selection" command to create one file and event out of a comp.

Gr,
JHP
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Re: Attn JHP, Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by JHP »

everettwatson wrote:In your video, when you selected the parts to keep, highlighted the section, then excecuted the Events to Part from the menu, what happens to all the "un-selected" audio segements that were not selected during the comping process.
There are no dissapearing events.

Every event you select, whether the event is muted or unmuted, will end up in the part once you execute "Events to Parts". ;)

Look at the gif again and reproduce to make the workflow and concept yours.

Gr,
JHP
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Kev Vin »

Thanks again JHP :D

I'm sure I speak for myself and all other users on the forum when I say posts like this, with animated gifs demonstrating workflow are priceless.

This is close to the solution I've been looking for and at the risk of sounding like a nagging b!t@h heres my one issue.

I don't understand why once placed in parts grouped comping no longer works. Having to dissolve a part to adjust a comp for group tracks, but not for single tracks, seems a bit inconsistant.

Honestly I do wish we could continue editing within a part and have grouped tracks follow.
Then if we want to do independant editing within a part simply just turn off the group editing button on the folder. Thats how I imagined it to work anyway.

Otherwise the method of using parts is a very good solution to preserving comps. In fact the way you showed that comps can be comped into other comps which were then comped was quite an eye opener for me. :shock: ;)

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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Conman »

Kev Vin wrote:Thanks again JHP :D

I'm sure I speak for myself and all other users on the forum when I say posts like this, with animated gifs demonstrating workflow are priceless.

This is close to the solution I've been looking for and at the risk of sounding like a nagging b!t@h heres my one issue.

I don't understand why once placed in parts grouped comping no longer works. Having to dissolve a part to adjust a comp for group tracks, but not for single tracks, seems a bit inconsistant.

Honestly I do wish we could continue editing within a part and have grouped tracks follow.
Then if we want to do independant editing within a part simply just turn off the group editing button on the folder. Thats how I imagined it to work anyway.

Otherwise the method of using parts is a very good solution to preserving comps. In fact the way you showed that comps can be comped into other comps which were then comped was quite an eye opener for me. :shock: ;)
The programmers could have found a problem or two with the "multi-session" aspect of comping. I dunno, the History aspect maybe? I can see how some scenarios may get very complex and compromise the history in a very random way or just a simple bug somewhere. My guess is that it could well change back or to a better or worse version before it settles to what "everyman" wants.

This thread is an object lesson in good threads and general civility. Credit all. Thank you.
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by A.j. »

This is going to be a long post. Bear with me - it's a holiday here in the States! :)

First off, thanks again to JHP for his ongoing help in this thread. "Saving" each comp in an Audio Part container (as JHP demonstrates in the gifs above) will definitely help those of us who miss Cubase 5's comp-as-you-go recording capability.

(Incidentally JHP, what program are you using to create those gif screen recordings? They look great for such a small file size.)

It's worth mentioning that this basic approach is itself a carryover from Cubase 5. I am a long-time user of Steinberg's Audio Parts feature, and for years this was my preferred daily comping technique. In C5 (and earlier, all the way back to Nuendo 1), newly recorded takes appeared in front of any existing Audio Parts. And, yes, if there were comp'ed audio events within those Audio Parts, they remained safe and undisturbed while tracking new takes.

This behavior is essentially unchanged in C6. Good news for those of us who like this approach! However, there are some unique workflow issues C6 introduces to this technique. More on that below...

Over the weekend, I spent some time using this approach in a non-client Cubase 6 session. Here's my basic workflow for comp-as-you-go recording in C6:

1) Record multiple takes to a track
2) Comp takes
3) Select > All on Selected Tracks
4) Events to Part
5) Record new take(s) to same track
6) Mute NEW takes
7) Dissolve the Part created in Step 4
8) Comp again (split/unmute/activate the new takes, as desired).
9) To record additional takes, repeat from Step 3 as needed.

In general, this technique WORKS. Very cool. Some important notes:

a) It's not necessary to dissolve the Audio Part each time (step 7). Instead, you can keep each Audio Part as an "iterative comp" for each "session of takes".

b) If you keep iterative comps like this, you can still split them up onscreen while comping any newly recorded audio events in the Project Window. Split Audio Parts just turn into smaller Parts, and each will play back normally when activated in the Project Window's Lane view. (This a little counter-intuitive at first, but actually can be useful to keep earlier comping efforts unchanged - as Kev Vin recently mentioned, it also kind of blew my mind when I realized it.)

c) Whenever I maintain iterative comps, I re-name each Audio Part as something recognizable, such as "SaxComp1" or "FluteComp12-31-11".

d) Comps within Audio Parts can continue to be comped without dissolving them. This is VERY useful. Just double-click on them to open the Part Editor. This is great for tweaking up iterative comps. However, there are some significant limitations to comping within the Part Editor (as opposed to the Project Window). More on that below...

--------

Now, some issues I've found with using Parts in C6 to "comp-as-you-go":

i) When you dissolve a part after recording new Audio Events (step 7, above), the dissolved part's takes become "mixed up" visually with any new takes in the Project Window's Lanes view. This can be very confusing, especially when new takes are not the same length as previously split ones. It appears that JHP agrees - you'll notice in JHP's gif demo, he avoids this problem by manually moving his new takes down the screen to create empty lanes before dissolving his part.

However, this can be quite repetitive and time-consuming - first of all, notice how JHP manually moves the new takes down one lane at a time, rather than several lanes at once. This is a current limitation of the software. If the earlier comp you are dissolving contains dozens of takes (not uncommon after a long overdub session), you'll need to manually move the new takes down dozens of times. But before you do any of that, you'll need to take the time to open the part and actually count how many lanes you'll need to manually free up. This needs to be fixed - perhaps by automatically moving all new takes downward when dissolving a part.

ii) As mentioned in other posts, using C6's Group Edit feature appears to "break" some of this process. When I created a comp'ed Audio Part for a multitrack drum performance, I was unable to manually move my new takes downward into empty lanes at all. Thus, I simply couldn't create room for dissolving the previously comp'ed part, as described in item (i) above. This appears to simply be a bug (if I'm overlooking something, please let me know), so I'm optimistic it can be fixed promptly.

iii) As already mentioned elsewhere, Group Edit does not work in the Part Editor, regardless of whether the Group Edit button is activated for the folder in question. This is a definite limitation I'd like to see addressed ASAP. Without fixing this, many of the benefits regarding iterative comping that I mention above (and JHP has demonstrated) go away when your multitracks are in Group Edit mode. It's also just generally confusing and inconvenient for all of us who use this feature daily.

Comping and editing with lanes is where the rubber hits the road for many of us doing sessions with Cubase. Hopefully these comments add value to this discussion. So to conclude this longest post I've probably ever written (do I get some kind of booby prize?), I'll just mention that these impressions reflect my very first experiences using C6's new "comp-as-you-go" workflow. I may have missed something, so let me know! In the meantime, I'll keep working with JHP's ideas and see if I come up with additional thoughts.

Keep in mind I'm using 6.0.2 until the metronome bug is repaired, so please let me know if any of this has been fixed in 6.0.3 (the change log doesn't mention anything).

Aj

P.S. There is lots of interest in this thread (as of today, 1200+ views and counting!). May I suggest that the gifs and discussion here be stickied at some point so others can find them? This is information I simply couldn't find anywhere else - including online tutorials and after-market manuals.
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Conman
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Conman »

Keep in mind I'm using 6.0.2 until the metronome bug is repaired, so please let me know if any of this has been fixed in 6.0.3 (the change log doesn't mention anything).
I think at the Cubase page top you'll find Helge Vogy's announcement about C6.0.4. Revision nect week and official release soon. This makes mention of a metronome fix.
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JHP
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by JHP »

Hi,
Thanks for your posts A.j and asessing the current situation.
I have already reported this thread to the respective departments.
To make the gifs I am using "LICEcap". :)

Thanks to all of you,
Gr,
JHP
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Sunshy
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by Sunshy »

Wanted to add an idea I posted in the Nuendo forum for a "Move Comp To New Track" function:

I'm often double, even quadruple tracking things like BV tracks. Currently, I have to drag the different bits of audio I choose from the lanes for my (First) perfect take, and drag them up to a new track. But I think the following feature would be great:

1. Go through all your sliced up lanes until you have your "perfect take."
2. Instead of Advanced/Delete Overlaps, select a new function called "Move Comp To New Track"
3. All the bits of audio that made up your perfect take are MOVED to a new track above the selected track and is named "Comp Vocals 1" for example.
4. Now, because all of these bits of audio have been MOVED to a new track, they are no longer available in the track you were editing lanes in. This avoids you accidentally choosing the same bit of audio when selecting bits for a new double tracked vocal comp.
5. Now you can run "Move Comp To New Track" again and make a third track if you'd like.

Sorry if this isn't clear. This would be more of a musical application rather than post, but . . . I still think it would be a time save for me.
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Re: I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

Post by hkh »

JHP wrote:Hi,

I have already reported this thread to the respective departments.
great :)

Just to let you know, everyone I've talked to who is either using cubase or nuendo in professional settings are really upset about the new lanes and prefer the old version
Me and most of them are still using cubase 5.5 or nuendo 5.1 for most of our work... For us, the new lanes really mess things up


And btw... group edit isn't really new.. I've been doing that for ages, just group the events on the different drum tracks together using ctrl+g.. Edit them ilke one
After a take, press ctrl+g and do a new take. repeat. Easy

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