MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

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Conman
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:32 pm

Betamac wrote:Conman whats with the condescending attitude toward my last post

Do you have this problem?

Can you solve it?
That's not condescending. Or particularly aimed at your last post. It's to inform others who go along that line. GENERALLY it didn't seem to be sinking in. You think that's condescending? You live in a cotton wool box? :mrgreen:
I've been profoundly and personally condescended to in here and I can definitely inform you that that wasn't condescending. Or even aimed at you.

I don't have the problem on my present machine but can't rule it out on a future purchase which is why it's interesting me. My mobo is an ABIT if that information is of use.
No. I can't seem to solve it but I'm working on it. I think it could be a clock issue. This week.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
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EdCubasero
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:07 am

Ok, so we got 2 ASUS recording MIDI earlier than they should. Anyone else? Motherboard´s brand please?

EDIT: Maybe post your controller too, in case we see some coincidence. Mine is M-audio Keystation 88 Pro.

Conman
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:25 pm

EdCubasero wrote:Ok, so we got 2 ASUS recording MIDI earlier than they should. Anyone else? Motherboard´s brand please?

EDIT: Maybe post your controller too, in case we see some coincidence. Mine is M-audio Keystation 88 Pro.
Not sure that would be relevant. I would think that all the damage is done after the input port (midi/usb).
But then again I couldn't rule it out comletely with certainty, you may have a point. I'll think on that one.

Cubase is supposed to correct timing so something is bypassing the correction process (or "re-correcting"?). I would think that that would be caused by more fundamental components of the mobo or the drivers.

This old (2001) article may help: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar01/a ... sician.asp

And after having a quick scan of it I wonder if there are any background tasks might be causing this, maybe Asus motherboard housekeeping programs.
Old problems could still be around and as our computers are now all super-duper the old solutions have been forgotten about.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

Betamac
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Betamac » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:32 am

my motherboard is Asus. not sure which one I will have to check.

Controlling Via MIDI, on My Focusrite Pro24 DSP, the Keyboard is a Roland JV-1000

Didn't seem to have the problem prior to using Firewire interface

To be honest I've added so much to my PC that my next step was gonna be a new Board and processor, but was gonna wait a couple of years, as my system is solid and performs well otherwise. Could it really be the motherboard?

so thats 3 of us having the problem. on Asus motherboards
PC - Intel 3930k Hex core (oc'd at 4.5 gig), 16G DDR Ram, Windows 10 64 bit, Sapphire ATI Radeon 5770 Graphics, Big Screen in front, smaller screen at side. Cubase 64 Bit - Ozone 6, T Racks S3, Komplete 7 - Various Waves plugs. Focusrite PRO24Dsp - Yamaha HS80 Monitors, Audio Technica ATH M50 headphones. Logitech G600 mouse. Comfy Chair, 2 Pg Tips chimps.

jcity
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by jcity » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:03 am

I'm experiencing this problem with a gigabyte motherboard. So I guess it's not just Asus.
I7 2600k 3.4Gz | Gigabyte ga-p67x-ud3-b3 | 16 gb corsair vengeance | Win7 64 | RME UCX | Cubase 10 | Axe8

LeVzi
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:19 pm

Gigabyte motherboard here, but I had the same problem with an ASUS too.
AMD Phenom II x6 1090T 3.2Ghz , 16Gb DDR3 RAM, 3x500Gb SATA2/3 Hard drives. Sapphire RX 560 4Gb Graphics, Focusrite Saffire Firewire Audio Interface, Alesis Q49 Keyboard. Cubase 9.5 Pro

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:57 pm

OK , I dont want to open a new thread reporting a bug, but i've been doing some pretty extensive MIDI recording this afternoon, and as i'm working on a slow track, it's easy to get it in time accurately.

The last 4 recordings i've done have been spot on IF I grab all the MIDI notes and bump them 1/64th exactly.

This has to be Cubase itself, expecting a delay that doesn't exist.
AMD Phenom II x6 1090T 3.2Ghz , 16Gb DDR3 RAM, 3x500Gb SATA2/3 Hard drives. Sapphire RX 560 4Gb Graphics, Focusrite Saffire Firewire Audio Interface, Alesis Q49 Keyboard. Cubase 9.5 Pro

EdCubasero
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:07 pm

Ok, the motherboard theory is getting weaker. I am gonna make another test trying bypass the motherboard USBs in a couple of days. I´ll plug my controllers to a usb- PCI card and see if it does anything good, though i sincerely doubt it.

You cannot open a thread reporting a bug cause steinberg already said in this post they didnt consider a bug cause they couldnt reproduce it. I know, it sucks.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:09 pm

EdCubasero wrote:Ok, the motherboard theory is getting weaker. I am gonna make another test trying bypass the motherboard USBs in a couple of days. I´ll plug my controllers to a usb- PCI card and see if it does anything good, though i sincerely doubt it.

You cannot open a thread reporting a bug cause steinberg already said in this post they didnt consider a bug cause they couldnt reproduce it. I know, it sucks.
Well, to be fair, if they couldn't reproduce it. Tough. But now we wonder if they know why they couldn't.
It's either that complex that the company experts can't fathom why you have it. Or it's embarrassingly simple. :?:
A conundrum.

Rather like a certain footy manager who just got off a tax evasion charge. On the one hand he's brilliant enough to manage the England team but on the other he claims he's too dumb to write his own name. :mrgreen:
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:48 am

Considering the amount of pages and visits this thread is having till now, i certainly wouldnt say its that complex. Also, most of the people having the issue are having it for years so i am quite sure they already know it. Dont wanna blame anyone here, its just a logical conclusion.

Chris Beuermann

Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Chris Beuermann » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:21 am

Hello,

https://www.steinberg.net/en/support/kn ... %20Treiber

MIDI issues on Windows

This article mainly applies to Windows systems running any Cubase, Nuendo or Sequel version build end of 2004 or later.

MIDI on Windows systems: What´s the issue?
Using MIDI interface port drivers on PCs with Windows XP/Vista/7 in conjunction with current MIDI/Audio sequencer applications like Cubase or Nuendo, which mainly rely on Microsoft's current DirectMusic (as part of DirectX) API for MIDI communication, can sometimes be confusing for the user. This is due to the fact that it is possible for providers of MIDI interface drivers to deliver their drivers in different "flavors". Modern MIDI interfaces are installed with real native DirectMusic drivers whereas it is still quite common for other interfaces to use a predecessor API to provide drivers for the Windows MIDI system. DirectMusic itself has a function to "mirror" these Windows MIDI ports to show up as "emulated DirectMusic" ports. Unfortunately, this can lead to a quite nice array of problems when using inappropriate port driver architecture:
Shifted MIDI events while recording (events are recorded too late or too early)
Sometimes no MIDI events are recorded at all
Sometimes stuck notes or several events stacked on top of each other are recorded instead of being consecutive
Generally bad or wacky MIDI timing on playback
Double or triple recordings of the same MIDI events due to using different driver architectures at the same time

General advice for using MIDI on PC Windows systems
These are the basic steps to check when you experience problems with the stability of MIDI communication on your PC system:
Make sure to have all available updates for the application and the operating system installed. When it comes to MIDI timing it is crucial to use the latest DirectX version available for your operating system.

Cubase and Nuendo
If you have persistent timing problems (shifted notes etc.) with native or emulated DirectMusic ports please check the option "Use System Timestamp" provided in the DirectMusic section of the Device Setup dialogue. This option uses another timing reference in your system when enabled.
The option "Use System Time Stamp" is also available for Windows MIDI ports since Cubase SE 3, SL & SX 3.1 and Nuendo 3.1 and all later releases of Cubase and Nuendo.
Since Cubase/Nuendo 4 the option can be found in "Device Setup..."-> MIDI -> MIDI Port setup.
If you experience trouble while receiving/transmitting SysEx data through native or emulated DirectMusic MIDI ports please check if the Windows MIDI (MME) ports can be of help. To gain access to all available driver architectures please see the section below about the "ignoreportfilter" & "enableemulated" switches.

Cheers,

Chris

EdCubasero
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:48 am

Thanks Chris for the reminder. I guess if most of us are here is because we already tried everything that has been written in the subject, at least thats my case. Made all the possible combinations with all the possible variables: Direct music, Windows MIDI, system timestamp, ignoreportfilter,etc.

All of this has alredady been mentioned in this thread and makes no difference for many of us.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Betamac » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:43 pm

Hi Chris

I too have tried all the suggested fixes in that article. Was my first course of action, I tried every combination of port and system timestamp. Didn't work for me I'm sorry to say.

I have not tested other Daws for comparison in any massive depth or in a prticularly scientific way. But tried recording sixteenth hi-hats from my MIDI keyboeard over 8 bars at 126 bpm, in my version of Ableton, and my demo version of Reason, and in the project of Cubase where I first noticed the problem. The result was more 'random' and un-related to what I had actually heard myself play on Cubase.

Is there anything else I can try?
PC - Intel 3930k Hex core (oc'd at 4.5 gig), 16G DDR Ram, Windows 10 64 bit, Sapphire ATI Radeon 5770 Graphics, Big Screen in front, smaller screen at side. Cubase 64 Bit - Ozone 6, T Racks S3, Komplete 7 - Various Waves plugs. Focusrite PRO24Dsp - Yamaha HS80 Monitors, Audio Technica ATH M50 headphones. Logitech G600 mouse. Comfy Chair, 2 Pg Tips chimps.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:26 am

Another test: i installed a midi viortual cable and made a loop in cubase. I created a 1 bar quantized 1/4ths sequence and run it thru the virtual cable, and recorded the result on another midi track on the same project. The result was ok (notes were actually a little bit late, but it was acceptable).

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:25 am

I installed the USB PCI card and connect my controller there. Makes no difference, still early recorded notes.

creartistic
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by creartistic » Fri May 18, 2012 9:48 am

I just posted this thread (before I found this one). Seems to be the exact same problem.
Please read what I already ruled out as cause of the problem and what still remains.

https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtop ... 19&t=22939

dopethrone
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by dopethrone » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:29 am

I have this same issue. Everything is recorded earlier than I hear it when I first record it. It's driving me crazy.

LeVzi
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:10 am

Chris Beuermann wrote:Hello,

https://www.steinberg.net/en/support/kn ... %20Treiber

MIDI issues on Windows

This article mainly applies to Windows systems running any Cubase, Nuendo or Sequel version build end of 2004 or later.

MIDI on Windows systems: What´s the issue?
Using MIDI interface port drivers on PCs with Windows XP/Vista/7 in conjunction with current MIDI/Audio sequencer applications like Cubase or Nuendo, which mainly rely on Microsoft's current DirectMusic (as part of DirectX) API for MIDI communication, can sometimes be confusing for the user. This is due to the fact that it is possible for providers of MIDI interface drivers to deliver their drivers in different "flavors". Modern MIDI interfaces are installed with real native DirectMusic drivers whereas it is still quite common for other interfaces to use a predecessor API to provide drivers for the Windows MIDI system. DirectMusic itself has a function to "mirror" these Windows MIDI ports to show up as "emulated DirectMusic" ports. Unfortunately, this can lead to a quite nice array of problems when using inappropriate port driver architecture:
Shifted MIDI events while recording (events are recorded too late or too early)
Sometimes no MIDI events are recorded at all
Sometimes stuck notes or several events stacked on top of each other are recorded instead of being consecutive
Generally bad or wacky MIDI timing on playback
Double or triple recordings of the same MIDI events due to using different driver architectures at the same time

General advice for using MIDI on PC Windows systems
These are the basic steps to check when you experience problems with the stability of MIDI communication on your PC system:
Make sure to have all available updates for the application and the operating system installed. When it comes to MIDI timing it is crucial to use the latest DirectX version available for your operating system.

Cubase and Nuendo
If you have persistent timing problems (shifted notes etc.) with native or emulated DirectMusic ports please check the option "Use System Timestamp" provided in the DirectMusic section of the Device Setup dialogue. This option uses another timing reference in your system when enabled.
The option "Use System Time Stamp" is also available for Windows MIDI ports since Cubase SE 3, SL & SX 3.1 and Nuendo 3.1 and all later releases of Cubase and Nuendo.
Since Cubase/Nuendo 4 the option can be found in "Device Setup..."-> MIDI -> MIDI Port setup.
If you experience trouble while receiving/transmitting SysEx data through native or emulated DirectMusic MIDI ports please check if the Windows MIDI (MME) ports can be of help. To gain access to all available driver architectures please see the section below about the "ignoreportfilter" & "enableemulated" switches.

Cheers,

Chris

We've tried that, it doesn't work. MIDI is still shifted by a constant amount during recording.
AMD Phenom II x6 1090T 3.2Ghz , 16Gb DDR3 RAM, 3x500Gb SATA2/3 Hard drives. Sapphire RX 560 4Gb Graphics, Focusrite Saffire Firewire Audio Interface, Alesis Q49 Keyboard. Cubase 9.5 Pro

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by beerbong » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:46 pm

Problem : Variably different early/late Midi recording issues not related to Jitter/Performance
Solution : Variable controlled Midi Recording calibration 'offset'.

DONE
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:51 pm

Hello. A revival. And a possible cause for some.
I just had a problem in that my drum tracks developed a certain latency that I couldn't get rid of by adjusting the buffer rates on my soundcard. I know a couple of you with this problem reported that maybe it had to do with compensating for latency and so some notes came in early and (my theory, granted) were not corrected by Cubase, which they should have been by the quantise or the timestamp function.
Although I did not notice early notes they ended up all over the place due to my attempts to get something done in a hurry and getting a track down.

The cure was that I had moved my soundcard to another usb slot, also it was an old Project that I was using for a template and had some older VST2 instruments in it and so I had to reinstall the driver and reboot and then clean out the VSTs and replace them with VST3s. After that Cubase returned to normal.

I don't know how much this helps but I just thought I'd let the thread know of a possible solution for some.
Solution : Variable controlled Midi Recording calibration 'offset'.
Cubase already controls variable midi recording by various means when all things run smoothly. If your midi recordings are off then maybe there are deeper problems, like the one I mention above, as many, many users don't have this problem at all.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:26 pm

Hope it works for some people. Unfortunately i'm on a firewire interface, and only got 1 slot for that. I've tried moving the keyboard to different USB slots, reinstalling the driver etc, nothing seems to work.

I received an email from tech support yesterday stating that my enquiry about this was "closed" after they told me they'd examine the USB MIDI controllers drivers and let me know.

So from that I assume they cannot do a thing with it, or found nothing wrong. So I assume nothing can be done.

It's actually now becoming a real pain in the arse, as I am making different styles of music where I do not want to move stuff and quantize it to each beat 1/16th or whatever. It's not natural playing and you can tell.

I have a horrible feeling I am going to have to record all my midi in Ableton then export/import the MIDI files into Cubase. All because Cubase's MIDI handling is inferior to Abletons.
AMD Phenom II x6 1090T 3.2Ghz , 16Gb DDR3 RAM, 3x500Gb SATA2/3 Hard drives. Sapphire RX 560 4Gb Graphics, Focusrite Saffire Firewire Audio Interface, Alesis Q49 Keyboard. Cubase 9.5 Pro

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by beerbong » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:18 am

Conman wrote:
Solution : Variable controlled Midi Recording calibration 'offset'.
Cubase already controls variable midi recording by various means when all things run smoothly. If your midi recordings are off then maybe there are deeper problems, like the one I mention above, as many, many users don't have this problem at all.
Or not. Even on a micro-scale, most peoples midi are offset at least in a tiny amount (eg ~1.0 ms], granted it may only be the difference between hitting the note, or , perhaps around 1/32th note for some. Sometime the difference is so small that it's the difference between playing one keyboard and another - it starts becoming a personal thing for players who notice those things more and more. It could also be the difference between playing keys and playing drum triggers, having a 'offset' COULD be useful, for both MIDI problems and instrument inconsistencies.

This small difference can also be more noticible when recording routed internal Midi signals, like recording VSTi sequencers, in realtime. When I do this currently, all Midi is offset by the same amount. You can check this on almost any Cubase installation.

Afaik, or can tell there is no Cubase internal control for making midi notes record, the 'system timestamp' option is perhaps A method to align Midi more accurately, but I think it is mostly outdated tech that wasn't really meant for Windows 7 and beyond.
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Conman
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:15 pm

This small difference can also be more noticible when recording routed internal Midi signals, like recording VSTi sequencers, in realtime. When I do this currently, all Midi is offset by the same amount. You can check this on almost any Cubase installation.
VSTi sequencers? Not sure what you mean there. Literally or a misunderstanding by me?

Back to subject. Does this happen with all your VST instruments? And how do things like Pitchbend behave? All midi events or just notes. Should be all but you never know.

I'm presuming that you have no quantise. Now what are your actual quantise settings. I want to test whether quantise is properly off. 128trip's might not be truly quantise off. Works for me but could be a few ways to set up where this doesn't behave (not necessarily user at fault).

And , in Preferences / Record / Midi, what is your "Midi record catch range"?
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by mr.roos » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:08 pm

I ran into this, not saying it will help anyone, but it might. On Native Instruments site they have a 'tune up guide' for Win7. You will see when you get to the tweeks part of things that within Win7's Performance settings, there is an advanced tab that you can pull down and make some selections. It turns out that the USB function is not normally running 'full tilt' in Win7, but you can select it so that it gets higher priority (Can't be turned off).

http://www.native-instruments.com/knowl ... Processing

On my system, which is built on a Gigabyte MB using a MB USB for my midi controller, I am having no timing problems with my midi. However I did have the USB box clicked, but now I do NOT. In my case I am not experiencing any difference for having unchecked the box but maybe someone else might?
Cubase 10 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 10, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (1903 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), M-Audio Keystation 61es controller via an M-Audio Midi-Sport 1X1.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:10 pm

My MIDI record catch range is 100, and i've turned off the buffered recording too, but been away so not had time to fully check it.

Was reading something about Windows 8 that's coming, and that MS apparently are trying to optimize it better than W7, sonar has been bench tested on it, apparently lots of good results.

Really dunno what else can be done tbh, I guess Steinberg have no further ideas, I guess it's just something that you accept, Cubase (and other DAW's) cannot record MIDI accurately.
AMD Phenom II x6 1090T 3.2Ghz , 16Gb DDR3 RAM, 3x500Gb SATA2/3 Hard drives. Sapphire RX 560 4Gb Graphics, Focusrite Saffire Firewire Audio Interface, Alesis Q49 Keyboard. Cubase 9.5 Pro

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