MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:01 pm

Conman wrote:And which other top notch midi sequencers does it work on then?
Works perfectly in Reason.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:45 am

What if you change the driver to ASIO4ALL?
And apply different settings in the "Plug-in delay Compensation" fields?

Reason does it perfectly. Fair enough I'll take your word on that. On the same system used for Cubase, I presume. OK.
Do you have compensation settings to do in Reason or is it just set up and go?
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
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Guest

Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:49 am

Ive tried ASIO4ALL - no difference
also "generic low latency ASIO driver" - no difference
and "ASIO directx full duplex driver" - no difference

Here's what I got from SB tech support:

"I am investigating the issue, the only hint I have at this moment is, that the delay compensation may not work
correctly if you use an UAD2- Card with its VST Plugins.
I have performed several tests, but at this moment it is too early to confirm anything.
Your system info is very helpful. I will send you further information as soon as possible."


Two things make me skeptical of this hypothesis:
1. It happens when no UAD plugins are running
2. it's been happening since SX3, and I had no Uad cards installed then.

But we can't rule anything out yet, and in the meantime, if some of you could try the repro on the previous page and report your results we could maybe gather some empirical data.... especially from users who have no UAD cards.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:30 pm

It has nothing to see with UAD plugins. It happened to me since v4 with this computer and i never got DSP cards. Moreover, i have a computer at home with a UAD card and the timing there is quite better (always working at very low latencies of course). If support is talking about UAD it seems to me they have no idea on how to solve the issue or they cant reproduce the bug there which i highly doubt.

Regarding if i am good drummer or not, or how do i know i play in time etc. Its just plain simple: when i record midi in Live i never have to edit my notes position, so it records as expected. With cubase the notes are ALWAYS recorded BEFORE the beat.

As a crappy solution I created a Logical preset that moves the notes forward by some ticks and i always run it after pressing stop. You can also set up a macro to execute it automatically after pressing stop but it can mess the whole thing up quickly.

Guest

Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:14 pm

EdCubasero wrote: Moreover, i have a computer at home with a UAD card and the timing there is quite better (always working at very low latencies of course).
What's the difference in hardware between the two machines, and what buffer sizes do you use?

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:19 pm

They are completely different machines. I think the only thing in common is they have an Intel processor (one is win7 x64 - bad timing- and windows x64 -better timing-).

I have also different controllers in each one of them. M-audio Keystation Pro and AKAI LPD8 (bad timing) and Novation Remote SL 25 (better timing).

Buffers not exceeding 512 samples.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:23 pm

Regarding if i am good drummer or not, or how do i know i play in time etc. Its just plain simple: when i record midi in Live i never have to edit my notes position, so it records as expected. With cubase the notes are ALWAYS recorded BEFORE the beat.
Is that with "Auto quantise" on or off?
There are more than a couple of threads knocking around with :oops: at the end from drummers and others who actually found that they actually had played early.
No players time is perfect. Which is why we need computers and quantising isn't it?
There are also settings in the Devices Setup for compensating for late and early input.

Though funkydrummer's problem is a bit different in that he has said that he can actually hear it. For most of us we get drums and if it sounds ok we use it.
I'm still out on whather recording both live electronic sounds and the midi would ever be totally in time as both use different paths through the computer and soundcard. I wouldn't want to use them as simultaneous tracks at this point in time. And no, in that scenario Reason couldn't do it. Even Reason can't defy the laws of physics though I still take your word on your previous post.

Keep on at support as he probably hasn't a clue at the moment but he's just given himself some thinking time but at least you know you've been noticed.

And a small (larger than I thought it would be) tech note. Although usb / Firewire / PCI and PCIe timings have considerably improved over the last few years there coould still be other data flowing through at the same time that shunts your midi and audio data about which has probably not been taken into account yet by programmers. I mean sometimes users had to plug PCI cards into several slots before they started to work without conflicts. Now conflicts are "invisible" doesn't mean that low-level conflicts are still going on which affect timing.
After working with drum machines for a long time and remembering that mechanical exact-time feel on them and now, on inputting drums into Cubase, I feel it sounds more "natural". If my ears are right that means that there is some timing "relaxation" going on in there.
Still doesn't fix funkydrummer's problem though. Hm.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:27 am

No players time is perfect. Which is why we need computers and quantising isn't it?
Exactly. Only that in this case we are discussing that the player´s time is acceptable and Cubase makes it unacceptable. Quantize was not meant to fix the sequencers bad timing.
There are also settings in the Devices Setup for compensating for late and early input.
Where are those? If you are refering to the timestamp options they are not working. If you are refering to the recording offset option on the System Audio VST panel this affects audio and not MIDI. My problem, unlike Funkydrummer´s i think, is just MIDI related.

Keep on at support as he probably hasn't a clue at the moment but he's just given himself some thinking time but at least you know you've been noticed.
what do you mean I´ve been noticed? noticed by who and about what? Support didnt answer me at all.
And a small (larger than I thought it would be) tech note. Although usb / Firewire / PCI and PCIe..
Now that you mention it: i had a PCI audio inteface prior to the one i am using now which is Firewire. The problem was exactly the same. I am thinking this issue might be something related to Cubase + my current MIDI devices (Keystation Pro basically) casue this is the only thing that i kept in common in the 2 computer setups where i had this problem. I cant blame entirely the Keystation though, since MIDI is recorded properly in Live as i said earlier.
After working with drum machines for a long time and remembering that mechanical exact-time feel on them and now, on inputting drums into Cubase, I feel it sounds more "natural".


This proves that you are not having the same problem as me and others. Lucky you! :)

Guest

Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:23 pm

It's not that I can hear the difference, I can calso see it! Look at the attached image. This is the result I get when running thru the steps of rhe repro above (that nobody seems to want to try!)

I had to play in advance of the beat slightly, to get the sound to come one ON the beat.
But cubase enters the audio and the MIDI note the caused the audio at different times in the sequencer!
So when this is played back, it sounds different to how it sounded whilst recording.
When recording, the sound came out on the beat. But if I now export that MIDI, or just play it back, it will sound BEFORE the beat.

When recording there are TWO lots of latencies in play -
- the first is the delay getting the MIDI data into Cubase.
- once cubase recognises the MIDI, there is an additional delay as cubase then triggers the VSTi, itself subject to latency due to the PCI soundcard it plays thru. So there is additional delay until the sound comes out.

Once cubase has gotten hold of the MIDI data, there is no excuse for it not being lined up with the audio in the sequencer - it must be a mistake! It knows when I hit the note (because it moves it back in time to that exact spot) and it knows the latency of the VSTi (because export mixdown and playback work perfectly in sync!!)

Cubase fails to take into account that when I originally played the note, I was compensating for the overall 2 - stage latency - input and output - by playing ahead. If I didn't play ahead, it would sound absolutely horrible whilst recording because the audio would be too late - this wouldmake it impossible to record.
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Guest

Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:29 pm

Further to my post above, take a look at this screen cap.
Here's what happens when I then export the MIDI note. The bottom audio track is the result. It lines up perfectly with the MIDI note, because cubase knew the latency of the VSTi and corrected for it. But this sound is now EARLIER than the sound that was generated during recording (the track above it, which is on the beat)

The exported sound is in exactly the same place as the MIDI note, but the MIDI note was early and cubase didn't realise it.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:55 pm

Ok, i made the test for you. The timeline is set to seconds so i guess its not as bad here as with your computer setup, but it happens too.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:19 pm

EdCubasero wrote:Where are those? If you are refering to the timestamp options they are not working. If you are refering to the recording offset option on the System Audio VST panel this affects audio and not MIDI. My problem, unlike Funkydrummer´s i think, is just MIDI related.

what do you mean I´ve been noticed? noticed by who and about what? Support didnt answer me at all.
And a small (larger than I thought it would be) tech note. Although usb / Firewire / PCI and PCIe..
since MIDI is recorded properly in Live as i said earlier.
After working with drum machines for a long time and remembering that mechanical exact-time feel on them and now, on inputting drums into Cubase, I feel it sounds more "natural".


This proves that you are not having the same problem as me and others. Lucky you! :)
Correct. I am not having the same problem (in fact, not sure if I have any problems). So, does that mean I am forbidden to try and solve the problem? A person with a problem and a person without same problem have more chance of fixing the problem than two guys with the same problem.
Support. Sorry, was talking to FDrummer and not yourself.
Live and Reason do EVERYTHING better than Cubase apparently. Infact, from the many references I see across this forum all the other DAWs are better than Cubase. :mrgreen:
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:07 pm

Of course you can help! Where did i tell you the opposite? Damn internet..

I love Cubase, its the most complete DAW on the MIDI side and thats why i use it but i have this big issue with something as basic as recording notes from a controller. Totally paradoxical.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:54 pm

EdCubasero wrote:Of course you can help! Where did i tell you the opposite? Damn internet..

I love Cubase, its the most complete DAW on the MIDI side and thats why i use it but i have this big issue with something as basic as recording notes from a controller. Totally paradoxical.
A lot of others don't think so.
A midi controller? How does it record bare data other than notes? Pitchbend etc.
Checkable in the List editor. Does that come in late as well?
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:15 pm

Yes.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:44 pm

EdCubasero wrote:Yes.
Thanks. I'm still mulling that over.
So it records notes and control data late.
Is there another way to input notes and data for you? ie: Do you have an onboard soundcard to use temporarily to use to see if the data arrives or is "corrected" late.
I'm thinking in some cases it could be soundcard driver (but not discounting Cubase either) related although Cubase should correct any timing errors. If a different card produces other results then it puts us closer to the cause.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

Guest

Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:40 pm

Xtigma. wrote:now, is the midi significantly earlier than the audio ?
FWIW, did the test for comparison (no UAD in my system)

Result:
@32 samples buffer size:
Midi data varies from 144 to 192 samples earlier then audio.

@1024 samples buffer size:
Midi data varies from 1376 and 1968 samples earlier then audio.

Test was done at 48khz

Guest

Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:32 am

I just got this from tech support.

"I am sorry but the latency correction works perfect and we do not have found any misbehaviour
until now. The recorded Midinotes are related to the latency time the ASIO driver reports and if the used VST Plugins have an additional latency this will be corrected too. But only if the used VST Plugin reports the correct latency.
Some older VST Plugins are not reporting the correct additional latency. When the latency report of an entire VST Plugin is not correct, then it is not only track- affected, the whole project could be affected, especially when this defective VST Plugin is inserted in the Master- Output.

And in fact we don't have other customers reporting this issue and our QA doesn't find any misbehaviour at all,
nor with UAD- Plugins used on the track or either with using any Steinberg VST Plugins.
So this issue has to related to the entire system, software or computer.

Best regards,
Technical Support Unit"

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Marcus » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:14 pm

Hi guys,

thank you funkydrummer for copy-paste my email.

We don't have found any misbehavior at this moment. The UAD- Cards and VST Plugins don't show any issue related to the Midi- Recording.

Greetz

Marcus
BDM Education
Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH
Hamburg, Germany

Check out Steinberg on YouTube, Twitter and Facebook!

Guest

Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:49 pm

Marcus wrote:We don't have found any misbehavior at this moment.
Thanks Marcus for the input.
Just out of curiosity. On what kind of system did you test?
Clearly some systems are failing with latency correction, so for personal troubleshooting, it might be very helpful to know the specs (HW/Audio Interface/controller/OS) of a stable testing machine.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:25 pm

niles wrote:
Marcus wrote:We don't have found any misbehavior at this moment.
Thanks Marcus for the input.
Just out of curiosity. On what kind of system did you test?
Clearly some systems are failing with latency correction, so for personal troubleshooting, it might be very helpful to know the specs (HW/Audio Interface/controller/OS) of a stable testing machine.
Mine tested on Intel i7 920 at 2.67gHz / Abit AI7 / Nvidia display / Emu 1212m / 12Gig ram.

Although many variables could cause this from bios settings through other installed apps and drivers to bad power supplys. Thanks to staff for the input. Very much needed sometimes.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Ali Baba » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:04 pm

Hi folks

Nice thread here!


Yes it is fundamental in Cubase:

It has to show us accurately what we have recorded.

Here in this thread we intend to play a key in a determinated point of time in the sequence.
And we expect that Cubase plays it back in exactly the same point.
Thus Cubase MUST be able to set the MIDI note at the same place like the audio recording of it.


That means, when playing back the MIDI track, the note should show where we have pressed the key,
but playing back, Cubase must automatically trigger it somewhat before, because of the
latency.

So there is a difference between what you see and hear and what Cubase does under the hood.

That what's under the hood, is the task of the programmer.
And that what we want to see is what we are going to treat now.

So let's bring some structure in our determinations!
What we must do is proving Steinberg, that there is a bug in Cubase.

I apreciate very much the test proposed before, to record a MIDI track sent to
an instrument > Group track > Audio track. (From funkydrummer.)

To examine if there is a bug in the program, there are too many things together
in the test project. Let's go on in several steps looking only at one detail at the time.

I plan to divide the following steps:

1. MIDI recording without instrument

2. MIDI recording with an instrument

3. MIDI recording sending the instrument's output to a group track

4. MIDI and audio recording like proposed before

In this way we could make some considerations or conclusions on every single level.


1. Step

- Create a new empty project

- Create a MIDI track

- Do NOT connect it to an instrument!! (Don't load any!)

- Switch the click on

- Play along some notes on your keyboard and record them

- Look up in the Key Editor where they are placed.

Near the beat boundaries? Mine aren't!
When I switched off the "All MIDI In" in Device setup/MIDI
and in the MIDI track I changed the Input directly from my "Fireface 1"
and then recorded another part... then the notes where veeery near
to the beat boundaries (quarter note). There, where I played them.
Yes! As it should be, showing only MY human feel and not the one
of Cubase.


Conclusion:

This is a BUG!!!
"All MIDI In" does not work well.

Workaround: Use a determinated input of your sound device.
Do not use "All MIDI In".

If you play around with the Timestamp switches, you will notice,
that again your notes will be placed in wrong points.
Another BUG!!!

Workaround: Leave these switches = OFF



2. Step

- In addition to the WORKING (!) MIDI track from Step 1 load now an instrument

- As in the proposed test I loaded NEON with the "Blip" preset

- Do still not open any Group track or Audio track

- Record some MIDI notes like before

- Look up in the Key Editor where they are placed.

Near the beats? Nooo!
Now they are distant on the left side (early).
Exactly like in every other test that has been made in this thread.


Conclusion:

This is another BUG!!!

Whenever you open a plugin, Cubase places your MIDI notes earlier.

Workaround: Hm, shall we get angry? This is an issue that exists as far as I remember
since Cubase SX1 or 2, at least when Steinberg introduced the Button
"Limit latency compensation" in the toolbar of the project window.
Yes, the workaround... weird...: In the info bar in every MIDI part increase the
start point by the mean offset of your MIDI notes.
Mine is 700 Samples/15 frames for a project with 120 bpm.
I think this could be different for everyone of us.
Depending probably on:

- Buffer size of your sound device
- Samplerate of the project
- Metronome etc

Don't forget afterwards to snap the start handle of the part to the bar.
Then enjoy your professional program....

Well, this one for today.
Try it and let me know...
I will come back in the next days...

Guest

Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:45 pm

Ali Baba wrote: 1. Step
Conclusion:
This is a BUG!!!
"All MIDI In" does not work well.
No problem here.
Create MIDI tracks, one with 'All MIDI Inputs' the other 'direct MIDI source in'
Zero difference between both tracks.
Ali Baba wrote: If you play around with the Timestamp switches, you will notice,
that again your notes will be placed in wrong points.
Again no problem here.
In fact enabling or disabling doesn't have any effect at all in my case (Windows MIDI).
Ali Baba wrote: 2. Step
Conclusion:
This is another BUG!!!
Again no noticable problem here.
I used a 1/4 apreggiator as MIDI input device for this test (more steady then playing it by hand) and switched neon on and off while recording. The result: No difference in MIDI timing whether neon was on or off.

My system is pretty old and not rock solid with its MIDI timing, so when you tested this on a fairly new machine I'm afraid your system has a BUG ;)

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:29 pm

I can confirm this is a problem for me too.

When I record anything in from my Edirol PCR-M50, it all shows up exactly 1/16th early on the created midi clip. It's a doddle to fix, I just literally shift everything 1/16th forwards.

Snap is turned off, should be no auto correlation at all, but still goes in fractionally early.

There is an option to adjust for record delay or something, you can shift the record time by a number of samples, which is of no real use as I've no idea of the relationship between samples and beats.

Cubase 5 has it, Cubase 6 has it, but FL Studio has it.

I asked Edirol, and they blamed Cubase, I asked IL they blamed Edirol.

I think there's something to be said for USB connections for midi controllers tbh, I think this is the problem.

But like I said, it's literally 1/16th early, so fixing it is not hard at all, hence why I don't mind it so much.

I tested it with a click track. Just hitting the C key in time at 120bpm, doesnt matter about accuracy, in 30 bars you are bound to hit or be extremely near the beat, but nope, everything was early.

I would suggest it's a case of sound vs software. You hear the note in time, but from the time you put any pressure on the midi keyboard the signal was sent, it's recorded. Difference should be fractional, but who knows, maybe that's the problem, 1/64ths arent small enough for recording.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Betamac » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:04 pm

My thread

http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19&t=16747

basically seems this same problem

I think the easiest way to sum it up is that you don't hear back what you played, which indicates something is wrong. At first you doubt yourself but sometimes its so noticable theres no doubt about it.

We all know latency affects timing, but it affects the time between the key hit in the real world and the audio coming back out after being processed in the digital world. If it leads to notes being recorded early then something is wrong with something

Im clearly not the only one suffering this problem. And I have open mindedly tried every suggestion from the knowledge base and from users on here, and nothing has really cured it.

Can I ask everyone..

Are those of use experiencing this using Firewire or USB interfaces ? I personally didnt have the problem until I got a firewire interface. (but this was around the same time as my move to Cubase 6 also).

I am able to work around it, but for some, this problem must be more than just annoying and perplexing
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