MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

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LeVzi
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:58 am

It happens for me if I use a firewire interface or an internal sound blaster tbh.
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Kev Vin
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Kev Vin » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:36 pm

Hi All

This topic has had me wondering so I tried an experiment of my own. I recorded myself tapping a single note to the click in both reason and cubase at the same time. I then exported the midi file from reason and imported it into cubase.
Next step was to select the reason midi file and lower the notes by using the arrow keys so as not to affect the positioning. I then could open both files in one editor and compare the results.

I tried this at various buffer settings.

After reading this thread the results I got were exactly as I expected. There is a difference in the way the 2 programs record midi.

Regardless of the buffer setting cubase records my midi hits as I press the key.
Reason records the midi as the note sounds so the higher the buffer setting the larger the gap between the two notes became.
Cubase consistently showed my hits on or as close to the click as I played but in reason they began to show up later and later with the buffer increase. ( I was trying to play on the click in the real world and not alter my playing due to latency)

I personally prefer the method Cubase uses to record midi. It allows me to still record in on time when my buffer setting are really high, by turning down the track volume and monitoring the audio output of my keyboard. My keyboard has on board sounds and I monitor through cuemix on my motu so I always have near zero latency on everything, even at a 2048 buffer setting. Great when you need to add stuff to an almost finished mix that couldn't play at 128samples.

However I can see the shortcomings for those without the kind of set up I have. Perhaps a prefence to record midi as it was monitored would be welcome by some. At present it records as it was played in the "real world".
However if a permanent change was made and Cubase behaved like reason I would be a very saaaad Panda.
Options are best in this sort of situation.

Anyways, thats my 2 cents worth and considering I live in South Africa at the current exchange rate its about 0.2 cents everywhere else :?

Peace all...over and out.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:40 pm

Forget about the kind of interface. It happened to me always in several versions with pci&firewire interfaces.

Related to USB ports in controllers? Might be, but i think over the course of these 6 or 7 years i tried everything so i doubt io would have forgotten if soemthing really solved the problem.

Ali Baba..i´ll try your tests and post the result back.

Really depressing that the official answer is: its related to your computer. I wish i lived in Germany and could bring my computer to the Stein´s support office just to show them. Would they look at this problem then?
If Steinberg cannot make a product which records MIDI on a way thats acceptable on every decent computer system then they should put it clearly in the box: use Cubase with THIS processor, THIS controllers, etc.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:44 pm

Kev Vin wrote:Hi All

Cubase consistently showed my hits on or as close to the click as I played but in reason they began to show up later and later with the buffer increase
the point here is there´s many people getting recorded MIDI earier than they played (latency doesnt matter here). I wish it worked here as you say its working there

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:23 pm

Ah! I use PCI interface. Always have. I'm about due to upgrade so I'll keep a wary eye on this thread. Could be handy if there is an unspotted bug with externally connected cards.
I have noticed that there has been a lot of corrections especialy for usb / midi soundcards over the years. In fact I think the "Constrain delay" and timestamp were usb related which is why I stuck by PCI cards.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:35 pm

EdCubasero wrote: the point here is there´s many people getting recorded MIDI earier than they played (latency doesnt matter here)
Actually I think latency does matter.
Look at the test I did earlier and notice the difference between buffer size settings:

@32 samples buffer size:
Midi data varies from 144 to 192 samples earlier then audio (48000 (Hz) / 192 (samples) = 4 milliseconds difference)

@1024 samples buffer size:
Midi data varies from 1376 and 1968 samples earlier then audio. (48000 (Hz) / 1968 (samples) = 24 milliseconds difference)

The lower the latency (smaller buffer size) the smaller the difference between placement of audio and MIDI.

Newer i7 & i5 can process data faster and a lot more efficiently then the older Quads, Duo's and Duals. So you can actually work near zero latency, which would result in near zero misplacement.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:19 pm

But whatever the latency Cubase should correct the end product to it's internal Project time (referenced from the start point?) to match other redorded components.
Latency seems to be connected to the misplacement shown in the examples here but that misplacement should not be there in normal circumstances.
So if all is working correctly the latency doesn't matter but in the case of this particular observation it does seem to have a bearing on the discrepancies shown here even though they are early.
In some way the signal inputted (seemingly by usb or F/Wire?) is getting around or blocking Cubase's correction procedure to some degree.
Early notes have been around for quite a while and used to appear here as regularly as "how do I change midi to audio?" questions. Cubase (and, I believe, other DAWs) did introduce features to counter some usb / firewire (help. bit of memory fog there, not too sure) chipsets or chipset driver faults. I'm thinking now it could be related to these chipsets or their drivers where the drivers have been updated and overtaken any correction introduced by Cubase in this case.
Not sure though. Any more brains working out there?
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LeVzi
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:33 pm

Only thing I can say regarding my midi controller is that the manufacturer stated it was a known bug from Cubase. So I guess I wasn't the 1st to question why it was happening .
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:45 pm

LeVzi wrote:Only thing I can say regarding my midi controller is that the manufacturer stated it was a known bug from Cubase. So I guess I wasn't the 1st to question why it was happening .
To rule out controller issues you can do the same test with the Cubase (internal) keyboard (Alt-K).

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:51 pm

LeVzi wrote:Only thing I can say regarding my midi controller is that the manufacturer stated it was a known bug from Cubase. So I guess I wasn't the 1st to question why it was happening .
They don't seem to know that from this end judging from their earlier post here. Maybe the two need to be put in touch.
Long term concensus from old Cubase users (who taught me how to build and set up my system) that I know is that the PC was probably the worst platform for midi so the problem is old and probably endemic. However Cubase does seem still to be the best DAW for midi performance at the level of features they provide. I would say it's a bit of a swings and roundabout at times for 100% fully working midi featureset.
Could be wrong but I think the best comparison to try and see if it is software related is Reaper though even that hasn't half the features. There's a lot going on in Cubase and that means there's more to go wrong that we don't all see all of the time.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:57 pm

niles wrote:
LeVzi wrote:Only thing I can say regarding my midi controller is that the manufacturer stated it was a known bug from Cubase. So I guess I wasn't the 1st to question why it was happening .
To rule out controller issues you can do the same test with the Cubase (internal) keyboard (Alt-K).
Well i'm shocked, exactly the same problem when using a keyboard, and the same amount (1/16th) early.

There is no way I could be that accurately early even if I wanted to be. It is drifting earlier and later than exactly 1/16th before the beat, which is what i'd expect if it was recording correctly.

Think this is a software error now, im going to test it in Ableton and FL too.

EDIT :

OK tested in FL Studio 10 and Ableton Live 8.

FL Studio was exactly the same as Cubase, everything was 1/16th early, but Ableton was exactly bang on, I was literally fractions off each beat some a bit more some a bit less, but so fractional and wasn't early at all.

So what does ableton do that the other two don't ?
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Betamac » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:31 pm

its frustrating All I can say... :x
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by jcity » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:25 pm

Conman wrote:Could be wrong but I think the best comparison to try and see if it is software related is Reaper though even that hasn't half the features. There's a lot going on in Cubase and that means there's more to go wrong that we don't all see all of the time.
I am having the "early recorded midi notes" problem also. Not as bad as some but always before the beat. I tried Reaper yesterday. Same problem there. I'll try ProTools 10 later this evening.

I'm using a USB midi controller.
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LeVzi
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:28 pm

This cannot be related to hardware, it has to be a software error.

Somewhere along the line, the DAW is receiving the MIDI data and putting it backwards a certain amount to compensate for a timing error, and that can only be the MIDI clock it's sync'd to. (If I understand that right)

But why would it do that unless there is a latency between MIDI Clock and the tempo.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:57 pm

LeVzi wrote:This cannot be related to hardware, it has to be a software error.

Somewhere along the line, the DAW is receiving the MIDI data and putting it backwards a certain amount to compensate for a timing error, and that can only be the MIDI clock it's sync'd to. (If I understand that right)

But why would it do that unless there is a latency between MIDI Clock and the tempo.
An odd idea popped in mind. Does it matter whether the target track is in Linear or Musical mode?
While I can't rule out software completely always in the background is the "Why doesn't everyone get this?" question.
We need someone with Ableton (because Ableton doesn't seem to have this) and Cubase who doesn't get this in Cubase to try it out in Ableton and see what happens there.
Any DAW correction (I could be wrong but it seems logical to me) should be done after the note has been inputted to the "one" reference point established already in the Project to correct any displacement between the midiclocks and the tempo. ie: It should over-ride any displacement.
Unless we're wrongly presuming where the "one" is in the Project (ie: where the beat should land).

Also seeing that the irregularities reported seem to have a regularity of their own another thought crops up in that when doing "merge tempo from tapping" that the irregular tempos also seem to have a regularity in their variations.
Just an observation that may not have a bearing but that's the sort of stuff my mind notices. ;)
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Betamac » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:58 pm

I agree with levzi's last post

in that, for something to move forward in time is not possible. So a note recorded earlier in time is due to a compensation problem.

The calculations are going wrong for some of use more than others though, We all know what the problems are with latency, its an occupational hazard, this is different. But this problem could be an over compensation for latency?

You kind of expect problems when your buffer is set high, but not when theres no noticable delay in the key hit to the sound coming out the speakers, when working like this you do expect the notes to get recorded as they happen?
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:37 pm

Not a latency problem. Latency is what you HEAR. Not what is recorded. Latency is to do with MONITORING. From your midi keyboard through to your SPEAKERS or HEADPHONES. Cubase is the bit in the middle. Just a recording device.
Full stop. Wrong tree. Stop barking.
This is to do after you have heard the note and the misplacement by the system or software of the note on the SCREEN you are looking at and in the PLAYBACK that you hear. Doesn't matter where the midi is generated from; your master kayboard or the Cubase keyboard. When you hit (generate) the note and hear it that's it. Gone. Printed.
If anyone thinks latency then they'll never get a handle on the problem.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Betamac » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:19 pm

latency is relevant, there are latencies between processing within plugins and internally also, Cubase makes all these calculations and presents the sound in one piece. To do this, it has to make timing adjustments along the way

because you play the keyboard in time to what you hear...This means what you hear Is the only way a human can play notes correctly

you dont play to anything else but what comes out of the speakers/headphones so latency is relevant..

The fact that Cubase records the 'key hit' when it happens, accuarately (if it does), does not mean that what you are hearing is going to make for accurate 'key hits' because you might be hearing it milliseconds out of time to how the system is processing it.

I am saying its possible that cubase is making an unreliable delay compensation and this is leading to notes being placed earlier because the user hears them differently to how the system is treating them (in relation to time)
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Conman » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:22 am

Latency is relevant. OK.

But NOT in this thread. This is to do with what Cubase does AFTER latency and as / after the midi notes and data are "printed". You do not get latency after you have stopped the track and restarted it. FX are not involved here either, we're not talking about THAT latency.

Something is not correcting the POSITIONS of notes properly AFTER the latency has been dealt with.
ie: You can see the result apparently (by looking at the midi notes) with the Project stopped. There can be no latency if nothing is moving. Please read the last sentence slowly. :mrgreen: As I don't think it's sinking in.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:34 am

I did try this in Ableton and it didn't suffer the same problem, notes were recorded on or near each beat.

I tried it in FL Studio, exact same problem as Cubase.

What I mean by latency is that Cubase is interpreting there being some kind of delay between time midi is inputted and when it records, so it moves it back 1/16th (in my case) its a sort of compensation done in recording.

We have the option to shift recording by x amount of samples, which suggests this is to compensate for this exact problem, question is, is that option just for audio or midi too ?

If it was the odd note early i'd not worry, but the fact that I am consistantly 1/16th early on every note can only mean Cubase is moving it not me playing early. Because I can pretty much hit my marks in Ableton.

OK I am not trying to say I am without human error but out of 100 notes played, you'd expect 30-40% to be near enough perfect. In Ableton it was nearer 70-80% on the beat, in Cubase/FL it was 100% off, but if you remove that 1/16th delay, I am in the same figures i'd be with Ableton.

Can I get a conversion chart for samples - time ? Then i'd adjust the offset for recording to match 1/16th and re-do the test.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by etl17 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:54 am

This is an old well known problem with some motherboards.
Try playing around with the different settings "use system timestamp etc" on the midi devices page.
Also, do a search for ignoreportfilter on the knowledgebase to see if you need to use different drivers for your MIDI devices. There used to be a utlity that was calculating the clock drift between the audio and system clock, do a search for it.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Betamac » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:26 pm

Conman whats with the condescending attitude toward my last post

Do you have this problem?

Can you solve it?
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by LeVzi » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:39 pm

etl17 wrote:This is an old well known problem with some motherboards.
Try playing around with the different settings "use system timestamp etc" on the midi devices page.
Also, do a search for ignoreportfilter on the knowledgebase to see if you need to use different drivers for your MIDI devices. There used to be a utlity that was calculating the clock drift between the audio and system clock, do a search for it.
Im not sure it would be a motherboard issue as I am ok in ableton just not in FL or Cubase.

I would say this is software dependant. Cubase and FL are maybe using a different midi timestamp setting to ableton.

I dunno.
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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by EdCubasero » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:42 am

I must say i start thinking it can indeeed be some motherboard issue in combination with Cubase. Why? I have a friend with the same cubase version than me and the same MIDI controller as me, connected by USB. He´s got a MSI and i have got an ASUS. He doesnt suffer the issue and i do.

At my place a i have a Gigabyte mobo + another controller and the timing when recording is better.

I have an ASUS motherboard, and i had ASUS in the past too and i always had this freaking problem. Can anybody else having this issue confirm which brand is his motherboard please? Lets try to rule things out by ourselves.

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Re: MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Post by Guest » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:41 pm

EdCubasero wrote:Can anybody else having this issue confirm which brand is his motherboard please? Lets try to rule things out by ourselves.
Interesting.
I have an ASUS board too (Intel 975X & Intel ICH7R chipset)

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