Page 1 of 2

43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:04 pm
by Eirik_A
Hi,

I just noticed that one of my projects started to be slow to work with.
It's a 35 track audio only project. No VSTi's.
2 FX tracks for reverb sends (Reverence), and two FX tracks for delay sends.
Waves SSL channel on nearly every track. A few other VST inserts here and there.
Looking at the project file, I see it has grown to 43Mb. Is this normal?
What kind of info is recorded into this file?
Btw, saving to a new project name gives the same file size.
Running Cubase 5.5.2 32-bit on Win 7 64-bit

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:15 pm
by Guest
Are there a lot of unused takes in the Pool? Remove Unused Media, sending it to Trash and then Erasing will get rid of unwanted files, but make absolutely sure you don't need them.

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:47 pm
by mindastray
mashedmitten wrote:Are there a lot of unused takes in the Pool? Remove Unused Media, sending it to Trash and then Erasing will get rid of unwanted files, but make absolutely sure you don't need them.
I don't think that the content of AUDIO-folder has got anything to do with this issue; Project file only is supposted to save the LINKS to the corresponding audio files, and where to place them, and the event info + FX + GROUPS + all that. The guy was talking about the PROJECT FILE (.cpr) and not the size of the whole folder (including the audio material).

Cubase doesn't save the audio data in the project file. Or how the heck do I know anyway, but it sure shouldn't!

I noticed the very same thing with my CPR-files. About 5-15MB of size, which seems weird. I can't figure that what kind of crap Cubase saves inside the project file, but I'll look into it and post here if I find the solution.

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:50 pm
by thinkingcap
No, Cubase does not save audio datat in the project file. What usually raises the project file´s size is for example the use of Variaudio, which gets saved in the project file.

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:03 am
by mindastray
Eirik_A wrote:Hi,

I just noticed that one of my projects started to be slow to work with.
It's a 35 track audio only project. No VSTi's.
2 FX tracks for reverb sends (Reverence), and two FX tracks for delay sends.
Waves SSL channel on nearly every track. A few other VST inserts here and there.
Looking at the project file, I see it has grown to 43Mb. Is this normal?
What kind of info is recorded into this file?
Btw, saving to a new project name gives the same file size.
Running Cubase 5.5.2 32-bit on Win 7 64-bit

OK, I'm pretty sure what takes so much space on the Project file; You see, Cubase (like all the other DAWs too) make a graphical images of the waveforms that are used in the project. So it means that no one DAW draws the Wave Image info "on-the-fly" since this would render your PC very, very slow, since this is not a fast task by any means.

It's a looooot faster that it makes a graphical picture of all the audio files, so that you can, say, zoom in/out fast and all that. So as my earlier DAW saves the Image files in its own directory, I'm pretty sure that Cubase saves them with the actual Project file.

You can notice the rendering of the WAV Image file when you like import audio into your project and insert them on the multi-track. Then Cubase shows the text inside the event that reads something like "calculating image data" or something. Can't remember.

And as I compared the size of the actual audio data to the project file size, they really seem to be related. I mean that if for example your audio data amount gets double, the size of the project file also gets about twice as big. So there's really no way to circumvent this. It's very normal behaviour.

If you projects get way too slow, consider investing on like 4 similar and fast hard-drives and configurating them as RAID0 - like I did. RAID0 means that PC reads and writes from and to all disks at the same time. RAID0 is also called as STRIPE SET. So if you have 4 hard drives in RAID0, they are exactly 4 times as fast as a single hard drive but of course the size of the RAID0 is also 4 times bigger.

The downside of this is, that it's not very redundant; if one hard-drive of the RAID0-set fails, then all the data from all the other disks is useless and everything is lost. So that's why I've got an external USB hardrive taking backups of all my files every single day.

Expensive - but efficient :)

Hope I helped you out.

~Tommy~

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:08 am
by mindastray
thinkingcap wrote:No, Cubase does not save audio datat in the project file. What usually raises the project file´s size is for example the use of Variaudio, which gets saved in the project file.
Oh, that I didn't know.. I use also VariAudio very much so that's probably one reason. What data actually of VariAudio does it save to the project file? It takes suspiciously much of space then, if it is really that..

Let's hope that Steiny's people will see this thread.

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:09 am
by thinkingcap
mindastray wrote:I'm pretty sure that Cubase saves them with the actual Project file.
Cubase save them in the "Images" folder

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:10 am
by Split
The wave Image files are stored in a separate folder called, Images.

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:11 am
by thinkingcap
Split wrote:The wave Image files are stored in a separate folder called, Images.
Seems you´re getting slow man... ;)

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:12 am
by Split
Dam... :mrgreen:

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:12 am
by mindastray
Sorry, sorry, sorry! The PEAK DATA FILES (audio image file) are NOT saved within the project file. I checked out one of my projcet's folder and they are saved under the "IMAGES"-folder.

Don't really know what kind of crap it saves in the Project file then :/ :\ My projects started saving slowly (not too slow but so that I noticed it) and since I have my auto save value as 2 minutes, it started bugging me enough. Would be nice to know how to make the CPR's smaller.

mindastray wrote:
Eirik_A wrote:Hi,

I just noticed that one of my projects started to be slow to work with.
It's a 35 track audio only project. No VSTi's.
2 FX tracks for reverb sends (Reverence), and two FX tracks for delay sends.
Waves SSL channel on nearly every track. A few other VST inserts here and there.
Looking at the project file, I see it has grown to 43Mb. Is this normal?
What kind of info is recorded into this file?
Btw, saving to a new project name gives the same file size.
Running Cubase 5.5.2 32-bit on Win 7 64-bit

OK, I'm pretty sure what takes so much space on the Project file; You see, Cubase (like all the other DAWs too) make a graphical images of the waveforms that are used in the project. So it means that no one DAW draws the Wave Image info "on-the-fly" since this would render your PC very, very slow, since this is not a fast task by any means.

It's a looooot faster that it makes a graphical picture of all the audio files, so that you can, say, zoom in/out fast and all that. So as my earlier DAW saves the Image files in its own directory, I'm pretty sure that Cubase saves them with the actual Project file.

You can notice the rendering of the WAV Image file when you like import audio into your project and insert them on the multi-track. Then Cubase shows the text inside the event that reads something like "calculating image data" or something. Can't remember.

And as I compared the size of the actual audio data to the project file size, they really seem to be related. I mean that if for example your audio data amount gets double, the size of the project file also gets about twice as big. So there's really no way to circumvent this. It's very normal behaviour.

If you projects get way too slow, consider investing on like 4 similar and fast hard-drives and configurating them as RAID0 - like I did. RAID0 means that PC reads and writes from and to all disks at the same time. RAID0 is also called as STRIPE SET. So if you have 4 hard drives in RAID0, they are exactly 4 times as fast as a single hard drive but of course the size of the RAID0 is also 4 times bigger.

The downside of this is, that it's not very redundant; if one hard-drive of the RAID0-set fails, then all the data from all the other disks is useless and everything is lost. So that's why I've got an external USB hardrive taking backups of all my files every single day.

Expensive - but efficient :)

Hope I helped you out.

~Tommy~

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:13 am
by mindastray
Split wrote:The wave Image files are stored in a separate folder called, Images.
Yeah :D Just noticed and replyed above with a new message.

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:16 am
by Split
Wouldn't it be great if out curiosity to the mysterious inner working of Cubase could be answered by an official from Steinberg every now and then :ugeek:

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:05 am
by mindastray
Split wrote:Wouldn't it be great if out curiosity to the mysterious inner working of Cubase could be answered by an official from Steinberg every now and then :ugeek:

It would actually be nice :D I wonder where Cubase consumes all the PC's power but I once had this tiny little software named SAWPlus32 and hell if I'd do ANY KIND of a downmix with that old software with my current workstation, the downmixing would be finished in 1-3 seconds.

Of course Cubase is "a BIT" more complex software so I'm sure the power is used conveniently. But anyhow, some things would be so nice to know. Like, for example, this problem with the huge Project files..!?

STEINY, ANSWER!!

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:35 am
by Split
I'm sure this "bloat" of the .cpr file has been discussed before in the older forums.

One thing to try would be to do a save project to new folder (c4) or backup project (c5) and see if the new .cpr is still bloated?

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:43 am
by Eirik_A
Split wrote:I'm sure this "bloat" of the .cpr file has been discussed before in the older forums.

One thing to try would be to do a save project to new folder (c4) or backup project (c5) and see if the new .cpr is still bloated?
I tried creating a backup prosject, but still the same size.

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:48 am
by Eirik_A
thinkingcap wrote:No, Cubase does not save audio datat in the project file. What usually raises the project file´s size is for example the use of Variaudio, which gets saved in the project file.
Variaudio might be a good tips.
2 vocal tracks have quite a bit of tweaking in Variaudio done to them, and it seems it might be after this the projectfile started to grow in size (but I can not confirm this at the moment).
Why save this kind of information in the project file..?

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:27 am
by thinkingcap
Eirik_A wrote:Why save this kind of information in the project file..?
Well, I don´t really know, but it seems like a good idea if you open the file on a different computer or exchange projects with someone else, you´d probably want the Variaudio editing to be ported over..!?

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:38 am
by Eirik_A
thinkingcap wrote:
Eirik_A wrote:Why save this kind of information in the project file..?
Well, I don´t really know, but it seems like a good idea if you open the file on a different computer or exchange projects with someone else, you´d probably want the Variaudio editing to be ported over..!?
Well, of cource one want's the variaudio editing to be a part of the project, but adding this to a sidefile would make saving the project quicker. The Variaudio file should only be updated when one does Variaudio editing.
It is very annoying to have the whole project hang for the time it takes to save the project, and with the 43Mb file it takes some time.
...of cource all this only makes sense if Variaudio data is actually included in the project file.

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:41 am
by bob1474
Why not try opening the project, deleting the files with variaudio on them, save it to a new file and check the saved file size? primitive diagnostics, I know, but it might provide a clue. :idea:

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:45 pm
by Eirik_A
I did try removing the tracks with Variaudio on them and saving to a new project.
Project size is still about the same. I did NOT physically delete the audio files, which was probably a mistake..?

Can someone from Steinberg please tell if Variaudio data is saved in the project file or not?

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:45 pm
by thinkingcap
Eirik_A wrote:I did try removing the tracks with Variaudio on them and saving to a new project.
Project size is still about the same. I did NOT physically delete the audio files, which was probably a mistake..?

Can someone from Steinberg please tell if Variaudio data is saved in the project file or not?
I think this is even mentioned in the manual somewhere. It also was dicussed in the old forum, IIRC

-Created new project - 23 mono audio tracks length 20 -30 sec. -> save project -> project file size 406 kB
-Analyze all files with Variaudio -> save project -> project file size 6,12 MB (more than 10x increase)
-Straighten /Quantize Pitch on all recognized segments on every track -> save project -> project file size 6,21 MB
-"Bounce selection on all tracks", remove unused data from Pool -> Save project -> project file size 392 kB
-"Bounce selection on all tracks", keep unused data -> Save project ->Project file size 6,21 MB

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:12 pm
by Eirik_A
thinkingcap wrote:
Eirik_A wrote:I did try removing the tracks with Variaudio on them and saving to a new project.
Project size is still about the same. I did NOT physically delete the audio files, which was probably a mistake..?

Can someone from Steinberg please tell if Variaudio data is saved in the project file or not?
I think this is even mentioned in the manual somewhere. It also was dicussed in the old forum, IIRC

-Created new project - 23 mono audio tracks length 20 -30 sec. -> save project -> project file size 406 kB
-Analyze all files with Variaudio -> save project -> project file size 6,12 MB (more than 10x increase)
-Straighten /Quantize Pitch on all recognized segments on every track -> save project -> project file size 6,21 MB
-"Bounce selection on all tracks", remove unused data from Pool -> Save project -> project file size 392 kB
-"Bounce selection on all tracks", keep unused data -> Save project ->Project file size 6,21 MB
Thanks.
So basically I could make a copy of the project (for backup, and possible Variaudio changes later on). Bounce the tracks with Variaudio to disk. Remove the original tracks and pool data. Import the bounced tracks, and I should have a much smaller projectfile.

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:16 pm
by thinkingcap
Eirik_A wrote:Thanks.
So basically I could make a copy of the project (for backup, and possible Variaudio changes later on). Bounce the tracks with Variaudio to disk. Remove the original tracks and pool data. Import the bounced tracks, and I should have a much smaller projectfile.
You don´t need to import bounced files, simply select "replace", (Read up on "bounce selection") apart from that it seems to be that way...

Re: 43Mb Project file (.cpr). Normal?

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:02 am
by Eirik_A
thinkingcap wrote:
Eirik_A wrote:Thanks.
So basically I could make a copy of the project (for backup, and possible Variaudio changes later on). Bounce the tracks with Variaudio to disk. Remove the original tracks and pool data. Import the bounced tracks, and I should have a much smaller projectfile.
You don´t need to import bounced files, simply select "replace", (Read up on "bounce selection") apart from that it seems to be that way...
Worked perfectly.
My projectfile is now about 1Mb.