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N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:39 pm
by KaNeT
Hi all,

I moved from Nuendo 4.3 32 bits to Nuendo 5.51 32bits on a Win7 64bits system (i72600k, ASUS P8Z68-V PRO, RME HDSP MADI, 4 UAD-1/UAD-2 Duo).

I was doing fine with large sessions on Nuendo 4.3, using tons of UAD plugins (almost nothing native) with a 64 sample latency without a single dropout or ASIO spikes. At first I had problems, then I disabled the core 0 (letting Nuendo use the 1, 2 and 3 core of the cpu).

Since I loaded the same sessions on Nuendo 5.51 (and 5.1), there's a lot of CPU spikes, and no options can make it work (multithreading ON/OFF, multicore, steinberg energy thing, disabling some core used by Nuendo, auto-affinity, etc.). I still load the same sessions in N4 without any trouble. So it's the same computer, the same session, and using the updated release of my DAW, I have really lower performances ?!?

Is anybody with a setup like mine is having troubles ? Is there a fix ? It seems to be the same problem that some user have after going from Cubase 5 to 6 (http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... 75#p110177)... After extensive testing it seems Nuendo 5.51 doesn't like the UAD-1... As soon as I use 50% of the power it begin to spikes a lot, the only way to resolve it is to rise the latency to 256.

Help ! I can't use the 5.51 with this problem ! Thanx

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:20 pm
by MetalSound
don´t expect any help here.
i am experiencing the same problem http://steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=17275 but as 5.51 is not officially supported you won´t get any help.
btw, this forum seems to be rather dead when it comes to official statements from sb.

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:59 pm
by KaNeT
Thanx for your answer, I saw your topic too. I'm not sure it's really the same problem. I have these cpu spike even with the 5.1 or 5.5 releases... And it happens when I load some UAD plugins, UAD-1 or UAD-2, but definitly more with UAD-1.

I don't have any "hickup" when there's a slow amount of FX used... And I can reproduce the problem really easily. Do you have theses hickups when there's no UAD plugins ? Do you have a Nuendo 4 ?

I also understand cpu spikes and ASIO/UAD plugins/latency is related and I don't expect incredible performance, but at least the same performance I had with Nuendo 4 !

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:29 pm
by neilwilkes
Unless you are playing soft synths whilst mixing, I would raise the latency/buffers to 1024 samples anyway.
This is the best setting for UAD (I run 2 UAD-2 Quads in an expansion box on XP/32 with N5.5 and it is just fine)
Don't run the UAD1 any longer though.

What version of the UAD software are you running?
Is Load Lock enabled at all?

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:07 pm
by Brandy
Well, I have absolutely no problems with 1024/RME here - using 3x UAD1 and 1x UAD2 Quad - often full blown.

I have not realized a difference coming from N4.3 working in Cubase 5.5 a while and now in N5.5.1

I have all other kind of problems regarding broken/changed N5.5 features etc - but not with those spikes.

I would avoid low buffers when using UAD, but regarding the fact that it worked in N4.3 I can't tell anything, if there is a change then this has to be a problem caused by Nuendo - maybe together with UAD.

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:08 pm
by Brandy
UAD1 I need for Nigel, it is sad that they did not transfer the plugin to UAD2.

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:01 pm
by neilwilkes
Brandy wrote:UAD1 I need for Nigel, it is sad that they did not transfer the plugin to UAD2.
Ah - I understand completely.
I am almost tempted to reinstall one of my UAD1 for this at times, as the Nigel bundle was I think very under-rated.
Much more useful than a lot of folks realised.

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:17 pm
by KaNeT
Thanx for your replys.

Of course it works fine if I set the buffer at 1024. It even works ok if set at 256. But I often record tracks in fully mixed songs, so with a lot of UAD plugins, and I need to have a very low latency because I don't use direct monitoring (by choice, I want to deal all the routing in Nuendo, and add effects on the input monitoring track), and the artists need to have a minimum latency in their headphones.

The fact is I bought a powerfull CPU to do that, and it works fine in Nuendo 4 ! Still does ! So there's clearly a problem with Nuendo 5/UAD, caused by the new way Nuendo handle load balancing on CPU.

I use the last release of all my hardware drivers, including UAD. Loadlock enabled or not, no difference for my issue. I'm really disappointed, and I don't want to be fatalist but I doubt Steinberg will do anything about that. I simply bought an inferior product, never again with SB.

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:22 pm
by TimoWildenhain
KaNeT wrote:Thanx for your replys.

Of course it works fine if I set the buffer at 1024. It even works ok if set at 256. But I often record tracks in fully mixed songs, so with a lot of UAD plugins, and I need to have a very low latency because I don't use direct monitoring (by choice, I want to deal all the routing in Nuendo, and add effects on the input monitoring track), and the artists need to have a minimum latency in their headphones.

The fact is I bought a powerfull CPU to do that, and it works fine in Nuendo 4 ! Still does ! So there's clearly a problem with Nuendo 5/UAD, caused by the new way Nuendo handle load balancing on CPU.

I use the last release of all my hardware drivers, including UAD. Loadlock enabled or not, no difference for my issue. I'm really disappointed, and I don't want to be fatalist but I doubt Steinberg will do anything about that. I simply bought an inferior product, never again with SB.
Can you please let us know your computer setup including the operating system used?

Thanks much,
Timo

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:41 pm
by KaNeT
Hi Timo, of course, here it is (as all my setups since 15 years, I built it myself after weeks of having carefully selected the components) :

- Box :Antec Performance One P183 V3
- Power : Antec CP-850 80PLUS
- CPU : Intel Core i7 2600K 3.4 GHz
- MB : ASUS P8Z68-V PRO
- Graphic : ASUS EAH6450 SILENT/DI/1GD3(LP)
- Ram : Kingston ValueRAM 4 Go DDR3 1333 MHz
- HDD : Intel Solid-State Drive 320 Series 160 Go Postville Refresh
- HDD : Western Digital VelociRaptor 300 Go 16 Mo SATA 3Gb/s
- Audio : RME HDSP MADI (PCI)
- DSP : UAD-2 Duo
- DSP : 4 x UAD-1 PCI in a Magma Chassis 7-slots (PCIe)
- CD : Plextor Plexwriter Premium 2
- DVD : ASUS DRW-24B3LT
- OS : Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 64 bits
- DAW : Nuendo 4.3, 5.1, 5.51 (all 32 bits)

The system isn't and has never been connected to the Internet. No USB device except mouse and keyboard. My use of it is strictly limited to recording, mixing and mastering.

In the motherboard BIOS I turned off the Network card, Audio card, etc. and disabled all "turbo" feature, OC tweaks, and HT too, nothing helps for now. In any of theses options, N4 still works fine (with the first core deactivated in affinity).

if you need anything else...

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:52 pm
by KaNeT
Hi...

As I expected (despite of this interest for my system from you Tim), this problem has not and will not be solved by Steinberg. You changed the way your pro flagship DAW works with CPU and some users like me simply paid an upgrade for a product with less performances.

I'm not here to complain again cause it's irrelevant, I know now I will not update the next Nuendo release but sell it and move to an other DAW.

Until this I had to sell my 4 UAD-1's and buy a UAD-2 Quad (since the problem was mainly UAD-1 related), and if I can't have the same perf I had with Nuendo 4, it's better. To help/inform others users, this is how much I can push my system now (with 1 UAD-2 Duo and 1 UAD-2 Quad), knowing the cpu spikes happened in conjunction with the number of plugins used, not with the UAD power used (if under 95%) :

- 64 samples buffer : usable until 50 mono UAD plugins, 40 stereo
- 128 samples buffer : usable until 140 mono UAD plugins, 95 stereo
- 256 samples buffer : no limitation

To obtain this performances, I activated HT, disabled the core 0 for Nuendo, and unclicked the "optimized Steinberg settings for audio". Theses performances are still lower than the ones I have with Nuendo 4, but at least usable (after having to buy a new $1500 hardware).

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:59 pm
by Big K
As so often I ask myself, what various habits of working with multi track projects there are.....

90 plugs, 235 plugs, even unlimited... and not even counting any used native plugs, at all.
Have you ever wasted a thought on how the finest tunes have been, and still are being, produced
with a console, 8 sends, 1 insert a channel and a 24 Track Tape machine?

I am not criticising anybody, but, what the heck, are you doing to your recorded music that takes an armada
of sound FX just to sound right?? Sometimes it is not the hardware nor the software....

Big K ( shaking head and dreaming bad of projects with 500+ Tracks and a multitude of plugs ...)

Re: N4.3 to N5.51 CPU/ASIO pb

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:14 pm
by KaNeT
(it was 50 mono OR 40 stereo)

I understand your point, but...

I run a studio, I don't choose to make minimal music or not, clients does. When a client comes in with 80 tracks of music, and five singers using each about 20 tracks of doubling or else, I can't tell to my clients "you know, some of the best songs used only 24 tracks". I guess they don't care, and will go see someone else if I insist.

When after a full mix on a +150 tracks, they want to re-sing half of the song, I do it, and take the money. If you want to know, my last recorded/mixed song was 220 tracks. Even using groups or whatever technics, I don't know how to use less than 50 mono plugins. I don't use native cause I'm perfectly satisfied with UAD, and I don't want to buy others (and I don't use cracked ones).

You're talking about a 24 track setup on a console, 8 stereo bus. Meaning, 24 EQ, and often 24 comp, and 8 FX, so you've got your +50 plugins.

Times change, I'm not sure any hit of the last five years used 24 tracks or less. Modern music is a lot more complex (not meaning better sounding), and way more processed, that's what my clients want, that's what they have from me. When I record and mix a vocalist with his guitar I don't use 50 plugins, but on electro/urban with lot of singers, i use a lot.

And I need my studio to be effective for this.