Event-order still messed up..!

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Brandy
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Event-order still messed up..!

Post by Brandy » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Well,

worked in N5.5.4 a week or so and I have to say it has became even worse regarding that "event on top" thing...

Whatever I do - move or edit - an Event - it will be on top of the other events after that. This requires a second edit - trimming down the end of the event to avoid that the (now on top) overlapping tail hides music, for example when editing drums and I make two cuts - cutting one drumhit - moving it a little "later" - then the tail hides the following drumhit.

This its sh*t!!

I was told that they fixed those event issues. But all I can see is that it is now ALLWAYS wrong, not only sometimes. So I need always additional editing and everything needs more time and asks for errors (when I do not see the overlapping tail because its out of the screen).

What I dislike as well is, that while recording I can't see the wave-forms when I do overdubs over existing takes. It seems that I then see both waveforms mixed or something, old take and new take.. That makes it way harder to judge a take because I can't use the optical component.

Back to Cubase for recording and editing now. F*ck it.

Whats up Steinberg... why can there never be a Nuendo Version which is just GREAT.
Christoph Brandes | Iguana Studios | Freiburg/Germany | Facebook | C9.5 - N6.5 - WL9 and lots of stuff like that | still originally registered in deepest 2001

bilekt3
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Re: Event-order still messed up..!

Post by bilekt3 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:56 pm

@Brandy & @Bredo I agree with both.

As @Bredo mentioned everything around is going to be more and more mature (PT, Reason, DP, Reaper, Studio One or Ableton with 45 GBs of instruments samples and a lot of built in instruments and Max Live for experiments beyond music) and less pricy!

"Official" statement from Ed Doll is that there will be notification (big/small nobody knows) about Nuendo in November - but Steinberg won't say anything specific which is frustrating in my situation. Best is sentence from my direct communication with Steinberg is:
Development for Nuendo and HALion is ongoing so sooner or later we will have news on both applications.
I have no income from Sound Design (which is not Steinberg problem, only my choice) and I am starting to be very frustrated that my money was gone in bad DAW choice... What is horrible that Steinberg has no inclination to change our minds with positive PR (Public Relation) or something.

Community is more and more flustrated and there is no word about "yes do not worry we do the best to fulfill your desires" :D

I choose Nuendo because I tried cracked N4.3 on Windows in my early Sound Design days and after I leave school I invest my money to legalization whole computer (MAC).... bad move :)

All sound design tips, videos and resources are done in PT - It is not hard to translate it into my DAW but I consider that Nuendo is flagship and Steinberg is proud of it - not floater in stream before waterfalls :D
Tomas Bilek | Solution Architect, Functional Developer (Clojure, F#) | Prague, Czech Republic

MacBook Pro 15', Nuendo 7.X+NEK, Absolute Collection 2, Fab Filter Plugins, RND Portico Bundle, Softube Tube-Tech Classic Channel, 2CAudio Reverbs

Brandy
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Re: Event-order still messed up..!

Post by Brandy » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:21 am

Well, in the version history they wrote

"Editing: Audio events no longer lose their “on top” status after being moved."

I have to be honest - first I was happy to read that - but I later realized that this is messed up completely based on a serious misunderstanding of the situation.

It seems that now ALL events in EVERY CASE are on top now - if you move them - they are on top after that. Even if they were partially below other events. They are on top after you moved them, completely on top.

This is just a *flower* behavior.

Imagine takes recorded via classic overdubbing, manual punch-ins... You have take 1... then you drop in with take 2 somewhere. Now you have to move take 1 a little - or a snippet of it.. After that it is ON TOP - on top of take 2. Overlapping all the way... Al the bad stuff below the overdubbed take 2 is now on top.

WTF is going on here??????? F*ck.

I stepped over this late because I was doing a summer vacation as well as I was using Cubase 6 for recording/editing a while - using N5.5 for mixing (edited, clean and bounced stuff)

Are post-dudes not recording/editing???! Why I am the only idiot who is bugged by this?

I am doing music and I am recording hundreds of real and classic takes a day, performing thousands of edits.
Christoph Brandes | Iguana Studios | Freiburg/Germany | Facebook | C9.5 - N6.5 - WL9 and lots of stuff like that | still originally registered in deepest 2001

Brandy
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Re: Event-order still messed up..!

Post by Brandy » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:45 pm

Bredo wrote:[
Brandy, are you saying there is a different behaviour in Cubase 6.5 than Nuendo 5.5. In this , IMHO, basic editing????
I will report back - afaik I haven't those problems in C6.5. Its some while ago, as I said, I had some offtime - I will start the session tomorrow in C6.5, so I will see.

What version of Cubase are you working in?
AFAIK latest.. As long as there was no update in the last 3 month.
Christoph Brandes | Iguana Studios | Freiburg/Germany | Facebook | C9.5 - N6.5 - WL9 and lots of stuff like that | still originally registered in deepest 2001

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The Sound Post
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Re: Event-order still messed up..!

Post by The Sound Post » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:17 pm

Hi Brandy,

I'm one of those post-dudes that records and edits :D

I have never liked overlapping events and crap like that, so I decided a long time ago that I wanted my new (as in drop-in) recordings to overwrite existing recordings. So instead of having my "Audio Record Mode" set to "Keep History" I switched it to "Replace".

You probably have a perfectly good reason for working with events that are on top of each other, a reason that I might not fully understand, but have you tried working in "Replace" mode?

I work in post production, so I may be totally missing your point here :?:

Martijn.
Nuendo 10 OSX 10.12.6 MacPro 12-core 3.46 GHz 48GB ram Antelope Orion32 Slate Raven

Brandy
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Re: Event-order still messed up..!

Post by Brandy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:06 am

The Sound Post wrote:
You probably have a perfectly good reason for working with events that are on top of each other, a reason that I might not fully understand, but have you tried working in "Replace" mode?
Hey Martijn,

oh my god, this would be a nightmare to me :-)
I once had to do some stuff in PT and I was not able to find out how to chance that "replace" setting - it was a pure nightmare for me, working with zillions of tracks just to be able to keep all the takes for comping...

In my field there is usually no "perfect" take - instead of that I usually edit a couple of takes together, so mabe in the end a riff (guitar) is made out of (lets say) 10 takes. For that I need all the takes.

Well, regarding the issues I wrote above I will post some interesting news tomorrow. I recorded metal drums the last 3 days and used Cubase 6.5 for 2 songs as well as Nuendo 5.5 for 7 songs... very interesting. For me the winner is Nuendo..
Christoph Brandes | Iguana Studios | Freiburg/Germany | Facebook | C9.5 - N6.5 - WL9 and lots of stuff like that | still originally registered in deepest 2001

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The Sound Post
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Re: Event-order still messed up..!

Post by The Sound Post » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:14 am

Yeah, I figured that would be the case. My work usually consists of a lot of editing on the one hand and recording a single voice-over on the other, which keeps things pretty simple. I hope Steinberg will make life easier for you anytime soon! Good luck,

Martijn.
Nuendo 10 OSX 10.12.6 MacPro 12-core 3.46 GHz 48GB ram Antelope Orion32 Slate Raven

Brandy
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Re: Event-order still messed up..!

Post by Brandy » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:17 am

Oh yea!

Well, I was quite busy to record a three-week session (Thrash Metal Album). Well, I have quite some news for you. Unfortunately missed I to make notes when I stepped over issues - otherwise I would now be able to write down a complete list of all mis-behaviours of features which should work different/ok.

First:

Cubase vs Nuendo. I try to recall.

I recorded the drums of the first 2 songs in Cubase 6.5, I felt uncomfy all the time because of the event GUI, the inverted color of the highlighted event made it difficult to apply editing. When I did fine editing (moving single hits) for example in a fill in where I already stacked a couple of overdubs the whole GUI nearly freezes. It gets so slow when I have a lot of takes stacked, a lot of cuts and a fair amount of zoom-in.

The event order thing was the same - even worser.

Nuendo: It was a pleasure to work here - since latest versions everything is quite cool over here, the event GUI is quite close or at least similar to Nuendo 4 - at least the way how "transparency" appears - well, here I have advantages AND disadvanges compared to Cubase.. In Cubase you can see the grid ALL the time.. Even when 20 takes are stacked on each other. In Nuendo the transparancy is only there when there is no overlapping - as soon as we have overlapps or stacked events the events are gray and not transparent anymore.

In V N5.0 they stayed transparent but when they are stacked they became "darker" - so you can see the events below. Well, this was cool on one hand, but nasty on the other - because the wave forms were transparent as well and what you see was a mix out of all the takes/waveforms which are stacked. This made eding and judging a take impossible. Cool is that now a small gap is between the tracks where you can see the grid between the events, even when they are NOT transparent. That enables me to edit even with no transparency - in V5.0 they removed the gab and when you switched back from transparent to non-transparent you were not able to see any grid lines anymore - in case of lets say 20 track drums very nasty... I had to insert empty "dummy" tracks between drum tracks - for example between the kick mics and snare top - just to see the lines.

This is not necessary anymore. Please keep it that way!!!

Only thing to fix: When I record with transparency I can't see the wave-forms because you still see the waveforms of the take below - or to be precise - a mix between the stuff below and the new stuff - that makes it difficult to "judge" a take by eye during recordin. It is always a good orientation to "remember" and control the take optically while hearing it. Of course this is not a problem when using lanes. Now please do not tell me "when using tape 20 years ago you had to judge by ear only and this was way better"..

Well those lanes combined with the comp-tool and with folder group editing is a mighty thing!! The best feature in current version - I was even able to record and compile multitrack guitars easily this way. Old lanes (I mean old lanes, not the broken ones from original 5.5) were only capable for one track stuff - which is quite rare, exept when recording vocals. At least here I usually never have just "one" track for an instrument.


Weeeellll... now lets come to the Event-Order thing.

I was NOT able to track it down... While I was writing the initial post I was upset because of that. Later, during recording, everything had correct behaviour - if I moved overlapping (or lets say "underlapping") drum-snippets - the underlying part of it stays were it belongs to. But NOT all the time, the day after I edited stuff from day before and I had the miss-behaviour again. I do not get it... I can not tell exactly when it works and when not..

Well, when recording an album, straight for 18 days, you usually do not spend to much time with bugs and issues.. You step over them, fiddle around, forget again... you focus on the music, not on tracking down issues.

There is a BIG issue regarding the status of muted/disabled events.

I often use it, via a shortcut. Now a take which is "on top" drops behind when you mute it (via keystroke) - so it is invisible and physically behind the other material. That makes it impossible to un-mute it again as soon as you have deselect the events...

It is NOT a good idea to move the events back in order when they are disabled. Maybe this is a "feature". But it is just not good! I used that mute-thing to compare takes - quickly disabling a overdub via shortcut to check out the stuff below - instead of moving it to another track first. Well, this is a thing which bugged me. Then there were more things, I can't recall, I made some notes, I have to check.

So - regarding Cubase vs Nuendo:

In the end I prefered Nuendo WAY over Cubase - at least when using versions with same features and same fixes. I recorded and edited the full session in Nuendo after I switched to Nuendo with song 3. Nuendo is just way cooler :-)
And close to perfect.. At least when you know the issues and when you know how to deal with them.

Nasty is, that "small things" are changed all the time... small things which needs you to find a dedicated workflow, things which are an important part of a workflow... then - all of a sudden - they "fixed" or "changed" something - and your workflow is broken. Maybe not a big deal for a programmer who just "tests" the feature - here is everything fine - but it is like swapping the pedals in your car while the car is in the garage for some mainetaince. If you are just the developer you might think "cool, I have more power in the left feet, it makes sence" - this might be true, but when it comes to the professional 10 hours a day driver it will be nasty for him..

I am quite curious about new Cubase/Nuendo... I am not sure if I like the new concept yet, most likely it is just awesome when you get used to it - talking mainly of the mixer.. I can get used to everything here - but please do not mess up the project window again!! Please no new "behaviours" regarding "lanes" or "event GUI" or what else... I do not like the fact that it took 2 years till everything finally runs fine and then you have a "fine" status for 2 months - till a new version messed up everything again...

Brandy
Christoph Brandes | Iguana Studios | Freiburg/Germany | Facebook | C9.5 - N6.5 - WL9 and lots of stuff like that | still originally registered in deepest 2001

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