Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

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Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by greggybud » Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:51 pm

I have limited experience converting .wav stereo files to .wav mono files. So perhaps a solution exists in Wavelab that I'm not finding?

If nothing similar exists I am wondering if the below is something that could be incorporated as a feature in a future Wavelab version?

https://www.soundizers.com/

Conversion is easily done with batch processing. But I am wondering about the visual where you can see the stereo vs. mono parts in a single .wav.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wixiRvhzNm4
(skip to :45 if in a hurry)
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by stingray » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:24 pm

Make a stereo selection then go
Edit > Copy selection to new window > Convert to Mono (Mix)

or use
File / Save as and select one of the mono options in the channel field

See p.147 of user manual.

If you want to see both waveforms simultaneously then just open the files in the audio file workspace using two horizontal tab displays.

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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by greggybud » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:45 am

stingray wrote: If you want to see both waveforms simultaneously then just open the files in the audio file workspace using two horizontal tab displays.
Thanks but that isn't what I'm referring to. In the video you can see the stereo areas vs. mono areas as they are different colors in the same wave.

The purpose of course is when clients send you what the believe are totally mono files, but as the video demonstrates, that is not always the case.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by stingray » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:32 pm

Don't know how to do what the video does.

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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by WYCA » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:11 am

If you are looking for a way to provide visual proof that a stereo file contains mono information, simply open the Phase meter. If it is mono then you will have a single straight line and the correlation meter will be pegged at "+1". Take a snap shot of that meter and send it off.

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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by greggybud » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:59 am

WYCA wrote:If you are looking for a way to provide visual proof that a stereo file contains mono information, simply open the Phase meter. If it is mono then you will have a single straight line and the correlation meter will be pegged at "+1". Take a snap shot of that meter and send it off.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, a phase meter will only show the information when you play the .wav file. What I'm asking is something where the user can look at the entire .wav file at once and see the mono vs. stereo parts in the same .wav as demonstrated in this video at :45 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wixiRvhzNm4

Maybe I should just buy this application, but first thought there could be something similar in Wavelab.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by PG » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:51 am

If you divide the stereo file to 2 mono files, you could use this tool:
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by pwhodges » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:17 pm

Or use an MS plugin to convert to M and S, and observe whether the S channel is flat zero.

Paul

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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by Arjan P » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:06 am

I must say it could be helpful, seeing mono and stereo in 'stereo' files. But the way this StereoMonoizer shows it looks a bit clumsy to me though.

I would propose a new tab in Wavelab, next to the spectrum and loudness tabs, indicating not only stereo or mono but phase coherence. Or, stereo 'spread' if you will - very helpful in seeing not only if a file is really stereo, but also showing mono compatibility (how much of Left is anti-Right). Just a thought: Red color is R channel only, Blue is L channel only, Green is L=R and say, Yellow is L=-R. And all shades of inbetween colors..
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by greggybud » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:29 am

Thanks guys!

2 ways I never considered plus a good suggestion from Arjan.

Too many times I have received what was believed to be a stereo file only to find out it was mono. That's opposite of the 2nd video where it shows just a small portion in stereo.

Being able to import a file and visually look at it for stereo or mono verification without relying on playing the file and looking at a phase scope would be nice.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by -steve- » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:08 am

(OT posts and their responses removed...)
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by Rat » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:49 am

Arjan P wrote: I would propose a new tab in Wavelab, next to the spectrum and loudness tabs, indicating not only stereo or mono but phase coherence. Or, stereo 'spread' if you will - very helpful in seeing not only if a file is really stereo, but also showing mono compatibility (how much of Left is anti-Right). Just a thought: Red color is R channel only, Blue is L channel only, Green is L=R and say, Yellow is L=-R. And all shades of inbetween colors..
Forgive me if I have misunderstood you, but isn't this there already? Pg 423 of the manual.

And on my second screen, these meters ... along with the phase meter ... are there as a default.

I always check mono fold down anyway, and the meters always centre when I do so.

Again, apologies if I have misunderstood.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by Arjan P » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:36 am

Paul, you are right that with the meters you can see L/R behaviour or mono real-time, but you'd have to play and watch each file. With a new 'phase coherence' tab like the loudness tab you'd have an overview of the whole file in one glance, where maybe in the middle of a 'stereo' file a part could be mono or anti-phased.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by Rat » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:56 am

Ahhh ... I see the difference now. Thank you.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by greggybud » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:16 pm

Arjan P wrote: you'd have an overview of the whole file in one glance, where maybe in the middle of a 'stereo' file a part could be mono or anti-phased.
Thanks Arjan P. I think this is what should be emphasized, and it's clearly demonstrated in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wixiRvhzNm4
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by WYCA » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:24 am

This can be accomplished with WL right now.

Add all the files you wish to inspect into a batch processor with the "L/R->M/S" plug and save to a seperate folder (which can be discarded later).

The resulting file will show correlated information (sum or "mono") in the top track and uncorrelated information (difference or "out of phase") in the bottom. Visual inspection of phase relationship for the entire file is then seen in a glance. See attached pic.

While mildly interesting to test various files for phase relationships, I don't find this a necessary QC procedure in practical music production. What would really be helpful is a process that can detect any lossy processing in any supposed linear Wav's coding history and return a printable report of the findings.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by Arjan P » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:13 am

Well, different strokes for different folks. Ofcourse there are ways to find out phase coherence without realtime monitoring, but a tab showing it instantly would be helpful to me. OTOH, I never use the loudness tab, and detecting lossy processing is of no use to me either.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by WYCA » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:15 am

Arjan P wrote:Well, different strokes for different folks... a tab showing it instantly would be helpful to me.
Fair enough. Maybe I am missing something, interested in what kind of scenario you have found yourself in where this would be helpful.
Arjan P wrote:...detecting lossy processing is of no use to me.
We receive mastering sources which have mistakenly been transcoded from mp3/aac lossy processing often enough that we need to be on guard for it. Its a big problem which we typically catch during the mastering session or in proofing. But this is a big time waster. Better to vet these files out upon delivery, before the session starts.

For the record, I don't want any time wasted on adding mono detection or lossy codec detection integrated into WL. There are more pressing bug fix repairs to address first. Anyway, I would prefer a codec detector to be a stand-alone app.

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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by greggybud » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:43 pm

I'm not giving up on this feature request.

https://www.soundizers.com/

Please watch the video and fully understand what the tool achieves. Is this not something very useful for those with clients that send all kinds of files?

If a work-around exists in Wavelab, such as PG's suggestion, I don't think it is very eloquent.

Thanks!
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by bob99 » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:58 am

Granted their tool can analyze different rates and stereo files or mono and do the conversions for you from a folder of files, which is really nice.

But for the views, or audition, can't you already get basically the same informational views in Wavelab 9, by loading all of your files on one track of a montage, right click anywhere under Lf:Rf to the left of the track, and select "split into mid/side mono tracks"? Then you can look at a whole bunch of files at once to see whether they're mono or stereo, and where the differences are. Or you can solo and audition the difference.

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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by greggybud » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:32 am

bob99 wrote:Granted their tool can analyze different rates and stereo files or mono and do the conversions for you from a folder of files, which is really nice.

But for the views, or audition, can't you already get basically the same informational views in Wavelab 9, by loading all of your files on one track of a montage, right click anywhere under Lf:Rf to the left of the track, and select "split into mid/side mono tracks"? Then you can look at a whole bunch of files at once to see whether they're mono or stereo, and where the differences are. Or you can solo and audition the difference.
Yes I think that would work. I haven't actually tried that in WL9.

But IMO it's a work-around, just like PG and YWCA offered. It's not nearly as cohesive or fast as Stereoizer which shows the same wave, and color codes with the degrees of mono or stereo.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by bob99 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:20 am

greggybud wrote:
bob99 wrote:Yes I think that would work. I haven't actually tried that in WL9. But IMO it's a work-around, just like PG and YWCA offered. It's not nearly as cohesive or fast as Stereoizer which shows the same wave, and color codes with the degrees of mono or stereo.
I think the Wavelab 9 mid side display is very close, and seems to be capable of doing what they're doing with overlay, which is how it appears they're doing it. Attached are WL9 screenshots. Mid side and mid side overlaid. Track 11 is mono. If PG knows of a way to change the colors or transparency, I think he's gotten very close already. And it's quite fast to load in files and look at them. Of course the Wavelab clip tab would show the file list above as in the other program. The Wavelab downside would be loading multiple sample rates, or having to load one and two channel files at the same time, like the other program can do.

I'm not saying Wavelab shouldn't include everything the other program specifically does, like conditional file-making at the end of analysis, but the display is almost already there in Wavelab 9, and could possibly be customized by PG to automatically display with overlay, although it's already very easy to do what I just did to show overlay. Just cut and paste the side on top of the mid. I'm not discouraging your feature request, just saying it might be worth trying Wavelab 9 to see what's already there, and how and where it could possibly serve as a basis for your request.
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Re: Monoizing a stereo file...the visual

Post by greggybud » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:30 am

bob99 wrote:
greggybud wrote:
bob99 wrote:Yes I think that would work. I haven't actually tried that in WL9. But IMO it's a work-around, just like PG and YWCA offered. It's not nearly as cohesive or fast as Stereoizer which shows the same wave, and color codes with the degrees of mono or stereo.
I think the Wavelab 9 mid side display is very close, and seems to be capable of doing what they're doing with overlay, which is how it appears they're doing it. Attached are WL9 screenshots. Mid side and mid side overlaid. Track 11 is mono. If PG knows of a way to change the colors or transparency, I think he's gotten very close already. And it's quite fast to load in files and look at them. Of course the Wavelab clip tab would show the file list above as in the other program. The Wavelab downside would be loading multiple sample rates, or having to load one and two channel files at the same time, like the other program can do.

I'm not saying Wavelab shouldn't include everything the other program specifically does, like conditional file-making at the end of analysis, but the display is almost already there in Wavelab 9, and could possibly be customized by PG to automatically display with overlay, although it's already very easy to do what I just did to show overlay. Just cut and paste the side on top of the mid. I'm not discouraging your feature request, just saying it might be worth trying Wavelab 9 to see what's already there, and how and where it could possibly serve as a basis for your request.
Thanks for the overlay shot!

I now agree visibility wise, and with more clicks etc, it's practically there. This is a learning experience, because I didn't think of doing an exact overlay which you shows does work. ie copy the side, paste the side channel in a blank area of the mid channel then move it on top of the mid, without the volume handles screwing everything up. I forgot that when you place it over the mid exactly, the volume/fade handles will vanish.

I think I am the last person on earth to request any feature that would muck up a great program such as WL9. Over the years, I have seen what happens with Cubase. :mrgreen: If it wouldn't be beneficial enough for users to have an application that achieves everything Stereoizer accomplishes in a concise design, and built into Wavelab, then I'm really happy for my $50 investment.
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