Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

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Tumppi Järnefelt
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Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:21 pm

Hi!
Is there an easy way (or any way at all) to use Curve EQ to make dialog tracks match to each other?
I'd love to use it for example to match the sounds between lavalier mics and boom mics. Cannot figure how to do it tho.
I wan't to do it real time using automation, no offline processing, as it will need more tweaking than the automatic part can cope I'm sure...
And if it is not possible, could this be added to future feature list?

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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Fredo » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:04 pm

Have you tried the Voxengo Curve EQ?

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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:41 pm

Yes. But it automates only very few parameters (bypass, Mphase, EQ range and 1Ogain. Or so I believe. Am I wrong?

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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Bernhard » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:28 pm

Yes. But it automates only very few parameters (bypass, Mphase, EQ range and 1Ogain. Or so I believe. Am I wrong?
You are right, Curve EQ can't be automated for most parameters.

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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:08 pm

Nuendo needs proper snapshot automation(like PT) or VST plugs per object (like Sam).
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by mufi » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:38 am

Oliver.Lucas wrote:Nuendo needs proper snapshot automation(like PT) or VST plugs per object (like Sam).
I think it's mainly a plugin issue here. I find the preview-punch with loop enabled workflow in nuendo being pretty much all I would want from snapshot automation.
Hit preview, set the parameters, hit punch and that's it.
Disable preview before punch, all changes gone.
Liked an anterior automation pass ? Hit preview, load the pass from punch list, hit punch and it's there.
Love it.
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Fredo » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:43 am

I agree with Mufi here.
My only complaint is that the previews are only available for the track it has been created for.

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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:00 am

Agree with Fredo and Mufi.
But I guess my initial answer for using Curve Eq to even dialog tracks is answered and the answer is can't do. Too bad.
So how about to make it possible, Steinberg?
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by neilwilkes » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:06 am

This is almost certainly because of the possibility of Zipper Noise, being as this plugin uses unusual techniques.
It is irritating, as it also means that I have no control at all over it on my WK ID Console either - and anybody who uses any remote surface that also uses automation channels for it's mapping will likewise have no control over it either.
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:59 pm

Do I miss something here?

How do you guys overcome the limitation of parameters touch assist collects or do you only ever use this with the Nuendo EQ?

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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by mufi » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:22 pm

I didn't use touch assist. You're talking about the 32 parameter limitation? That's why i didn't use it :)
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:24 pm

mufi wrote:I didn't use touch assist. You're talking about the 32 parameter limitation? That's why i didn't use it :)
But how do you make sure that your automation works when you don't use it?

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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by mufi » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:40 am

Touch assist tries to touch all parameters instead of just the ones used.
So if you don't use it, if you change some plugin settings that have no automation data, while stopped, you can end up with different automation data in already written regions.
But if you don't do this mistake of changing plugin settings while not in write, then you really don't need this option. All other automation is left default.
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:44 am

Hmm, I ended up in deep trouble without touch assist too often...and even if you restrict your way of working to only ever touching a parameter while writing automation (and not using undo branches?) I feel that the fact that it can potentially ruin all your work on a track's automation of a plugin (say EQ) without the ability to undo is the purest form of a nightmare to my way of working. I usually have 5 half hours episodes of a programme in a session because I can then easily let my customers jump between scenes and compare or copy stuff around. If I would ruin all my automation on e.g. dialog track one's EQ just because I make a mistake touching a parameter while in stop, I'd be seriously screwed.

I really like the idea of true snapshots for audio post.
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by mufi » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:13 am

I agree with you, this is a workaround, I don't see why this 32 parameter limit. Nuendo was supposed to be hardware-limited only, unlike protools.
The "Create initial parameters" or "Global snapshot" commands don't work also, or I don't know how to use them. Maybe someone could enlighten us on this one. Please.
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Fredo » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:31 am

mufi wrote: "Create initial parameters"
When you start with a virgin project, no automation parameters are written.
I.e. when you -for example- lower the volume on a track to -20dB, the whole track will be @ -20dB.
So anywhere in the project, for that track, your fader will always be @ -20dB. Unless you change the automation.
"Create initial parameters" will write the initial values at the start & end of a project, so that even when you change the volume somewhere to -20dB, your fader will always snap back to 0dB; the initial value.
That goes for any value within the project, not just volume automation.
"Global snapshot"
Assume you have a complex mix and you want to try something out.
1. Take a "global snapshot"
2. mess with the project untill you ar every unhappy with it and regret all the changes you made.

===>>> restore global snapshot and you are back where you started.

HTH
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:49 am

Initial parameters:

Yes, but I don't have all plugins inserted when I start to mix. So this is pretty much useless on every plug I insert during mixing.
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by mufi » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:00 am

I see, "Initial parameters" does not work unless you enable global write.
But it does not write anything to inserts parameters, just channel strip eq, volume, pan etc.

Also Snapshot...global write/read, i wrote some automation, "snapshot: store" , wrote some more, hit "apply" but then nothing changes. Is there something I must do before?
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Synclav » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:56 am

What we really need is for NUENDO to just do what console automation systems like the SYSTEM 5 or the DFC do which is:

First time you put an object parameter into write, the automation system captures an "Initial Snap Shot" value for that object. It doesn't matter if you are stopped or in play, it captures that first value you move away from and sets it as the ISS. This prevents the system from ever screwing you up by accidentally changing a parameter value unintentionally to a new value for the whole mix. Only way to do that is by intentionally using the fill keys. Or if you are using virgin territory, you can tell it to hold the current value downstream if you stop in the middle of writing a parameter (auto-match turned off).

It's a very simple system and works extremely well so you don't even have to think or worry about it. You can grab stuff in stop, in play, and it always does what you expect it to do. You don't play back part of your mix and have it sound different than when you played it before which is the critical thing.

I was involved in designing the S5 automation and we added a few things that made it more flexible than the DFC when it comes to Virgin Territory and updating that ISS value if you wanted, but basically both use the same approach.

Why NUENDO would do it any differently I'm not sure???

Also, as mentioned above, another big frustration I've had with using the system is the lack of a proper ability to punch in all the parameters of a function/plug-in. Auto-touch isn't much help in my workflow.

For instance I use the FabFilter Pro-Q EQ often, and have up to 6 or 8 bands sometimes, and want to be able to just punch the EQ in and write new settings. Right now I'm forced to go through and move each of the bands to make sure they are captured in the PREVIEW buffer.

It's a constant annoyance and really slows down my workflow.

I would kill for just a simple command that punches in all the parameters of whatever plug-in/function I'm working with. We added one on the S5 early on and it's used constantly. It's maybe even more useful than an AUTO-TOUCH because it makes it harder to accidentally punch in the whole function when you really only wanted to tweak one parameter. Makes more sense to my brain at least to hit a button to punch in the whole plug-in, rest of the time I'm just tweaking individual parameters. But I'd be ok with auto-touch if it just worked for all the plug-ins I'm always using.

If the concern is too many parameters being entered into the automation database, that should be solvable by just having NUENDO be smart enough to punch-in parameters that have been written to (have an ISS value). The rest would be left out until they are actually changed/touched.


This "PUNCH IN PLUG-IN PARAMETERS" and a proper InitialSnapShot system would be the biggest things to make NUENDO competitive with working on something like the S5.

Really disappointed they are still missing in N6... or if there's some way to get this functionality now, I would love to know!

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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:18 pm

Synclav wrote:What we really need is for NUENDO to just do what console automation systems like the SYSTEM 5 or the DFC do which is:

First time you put an object parameter into write, the automation system captures an "Initial Snap Shot" value for that object. It doesn't matter if you are stopped or in play, it captures that first value you move away from and sets it as the ISS. This prevents the system from ever screwing you up by accidentally changing a parameter value unintentionally to a new value for the whole mix. Only way to do that is by intentionally using the fill keys. Or if you are using virgin territory, you can tell it to hold the current value downstream if you stop in the middle of writing a parameter (auto-match turned off).

It's a very simple system and works extremely well so you don't even have to think or worry about it. You can grab stuff in stop, in play, and it always does what you expect it to do. You don't play back part of your mix and have it sound different than when you played it before which is the critical thing.

I was involved in designing the S5 automation and we added a few things that made it more flexible than the DFC when it comes to Virgin Territory and updating that ISS value if you wanted, but basically both use the same approach.

Why NUENDO would do it any differently I'm not sure???

Also, as mentioned above, another big frustration I've had with using the system is the lack of a proper ability to punch in all the parameters of a function/plug-in. Auto-touch isn't much help in my workflow.

For instance I use the FabFilter Pro-Q EQ often, and have up to 6 or 8 bands sometimes, and want to be able to just punch the EQ in and write new settings. Right now I'm forced to go through and move each of the bands to make sure they are captured in the PREVIEW buffer.

It's a constant annoyance and really slows down my workflow.

I would kill for just a simple command that punches in all the parameters of whatever plug-in/function I'm working with. We added one on the S5 early on and it's used constantly. It's maybe even more useful than an AUTO-TOUCH because it makes it harder to accidentally punch in the whole function when you really only wanted to tweak one parameter. Makes more sense to my brain at least to hit a button to punch in the whole plug-in, rest of the time I'm just tweaking individual parameters. But I'd be ok with auto-touch if it just worked for all the plug-ins I'm always using.

If the concern is too many parameters being entered into the automation database, that should be solvable by just having NUENDO be smart enough to punch-in parameters that have been written to (have an ISS value). The rest would be left out until they are actually changed/touched.


This "PUNCH IN PLUG-IN PARAMETERS" and a proper InitialSnapShot system would be the biggest things to make NUENDO competitive with working on something like the S5.

Really disappointed they are still missing in N6... or if there's some way to get this functionality now, I would love to know!
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:08 pm

mufi wrote:I didn't use touch assist. You're talking about the 32 parameter limitation? That's why i didn't use it :)
I just read through the manual on this section. Am I understanding it correctly that the limit isn't writing 32 parameters, but that any plugin that has over 32 automatable parameters won't qualify at all?

So in other words a plugin where you can automate 40 parameters won't have the "first" 32 automated and the remaining 8 skipped, but will instead be skipped completely?
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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:02 pm

I would like to give this a big bump, because it's the most important thing, really.

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Re: Curve EQ to be used in dialog mixing

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:19 pm

Me too!
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