Crossgrade from PT offer

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MattiasNYC
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Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:13 pm

Now would be a good time.

Maybe don't wait a month and then not market it like last time there was a PT user-storm.

Just a suggestion in order for you guys to increase revenue.
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Nvidia GTX 660 / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX / Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by lukasbrooklyn » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:56 pm

what's happened?
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.4, (c8)
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, EL Fatso ...

http://www.lukasturza.com // http://www.snapmastering.com // music production / mixing / mastering [hybris, upbeats, noisia, rem koolhaas, czech television, havas, ogilvy, ...]

cubendo supercharged workflow ideas/threads of possible interest:
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=63450
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=38182
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Fredo » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:06 pm

Whatever happened, or will happen, I think it is not ethical to take advantage of, and exploid someone elses problems for your own greater benefit. I don't buy into that "that's business"-crap.
And I most sincerely hope that Steinberg doesn't put up such a crossfade offer.

(Just my personal opinion ....)

Fredo

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:24 pm

Fredo wrote:Whatever happened, or will happen, I think it is not ethical to take advantage of, and exploid someone elses problems for your own greater benefit. I don't buy into that "that's business"-crap.
And I most sincerely hope that Steinberg doesn't put up such a crossfade offer.

(Just my personal opinion ....)

Fredo
How on earth is that not ethical???
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Nvidia GTX 660 / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX / Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:29 pm

lukasbrooklyn wrote:what's happened?
Avid is changing its model for licensing.

In a nutshell all future upgrades are available only by either getting on a support plan, which is about $600 per year for owners of the HD version, or likely on a subscription plan in which case you end up renting your license meaning if you stop paying rent the license gets "revoked". Further more if you buy the license and own it, it is perpetual. But if you don't have the support plan and new versions get released the only way to get them is to either re-buy again (which you currently can't do without hardware for HD) or likely get on that subscription plan.

And there's a lot more to it. Here is a thread about it if you're extremely bored and want to get confused and frustrated.

Many owners are very confused, many are very upset. Many vow to never pay Avid a dime again. Many to skip the support plan for now.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by DG » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:37 pm

Well, SB offering a crossgrade has nothing to do with ethics, it's just good business, and that's not cr*p. With a new notation app on the horizon now is the perfect time to persuade people to get Nuendo instead of PT, and the fact that some of the promised new features have been in PT for year just proves that SB is trying to shore up their market, so what's wrong with trying to increase it?

Undercutting the opposition and making a loss is certainly unethical (like Apple does) but as long as a profit is being made, there's nothing unethical about it at all. If there was, there would be no such thing as a cheaper studio. They would all be the same price, and then would be called into question for price fixing.

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Dog and Pony » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:01 pm

This would be a great time for a crossgrade offer. Nothing unethical about it at all.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by lukasbrooklyn » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:41 pm

Fredo wrote:Whatever happened, or will happen, I think it is not ethical to take advantage of, and exploid someone elses problems for your own greater benefit. I don't buy into that "that's business"-crap.
And I most sincerely hope that Steinberg doesn't put up such a crossfade offer.

(Just my personal opinion ....)

Fredo
interesting, i never thought of it this way. i do think however since this is business competition, and if the offer is clearly described, it can only mean more customers for your product, better development, faster updates, ... and if you're concerned with the customers currently feeling alienated by avid, wouldn't that be an advantage for them as well to be ending up with a superior product, rather than exploitation?
Last edited by lukasbrooklyn on Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.4, (c8)
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, EL Fatso ...

http://www.lukasturza.com // http://www.snapmastering.com // music production / mixing / mastering [hybris, upbeats, noisia, rem koolhaas, czech television, havas, ogilvy, ...]

cubendo supercharged workflow ideas/threads of possible interest:
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=63450
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=38182
my supercharged workflow videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ellGhSdmXfk

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Getalife2 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:42 pm

If I use Nuendo but my friend uses PT and after seeing my Nuendo in action for himself, he decides to switch over, is THAT unethical? Hardly. Why would it be different if SB does the same thing?

I think a crossgrade promotion would/should include the invitation to try the Trial Version of N 6.5. Given that many PT users who used to be on proprietary Digi hardware are now on ASIO compatible hardware, it makes perfect sense. They can try the best alternative for themselves and decide. For many who have never considered anything but PT, I think it would be an eye opener. Especially for post people.

Avid has made a business decision of their own free will. That decision is very unpopular. SB making the business decision to offer an alternative is in no way unethical. It is what is supposed to happen in a free market. It's called competition and it works to the consumers advantage, which is the proper motivation for business in my opinion.

Fredo, you're a smart guy and often very logical. But on this one, with all due respect, I think you've missed the boat.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:15 pm

Getalife2 wrote: ....
Fredo, you're a smart guy and often very logical. But on this one, with all due respect, I think you've missed the boat.
Well, maybe unethical because N7 will adopt the same greedy marketing model?

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:20 pm

Oliver.Lucas wrote:
Getalife2 wrote: ....
Fredo, you're a smart guy and often very logical. But on this one, with all due respect, I think you've missed the boat.
Well, maybe unethical because N7 will adopt the same greedy marketing model?

Ollie
:o
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Getalife2 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:31 pm

Oliver.Lucas wrote:
Getalife2 wrote: ....
Fredo, you're a smart guy and often very logical. But on this one, with all due respect, I think you've missed the boat.
Well, maybe unethical because N7 will adopt the same greedy marketing model?

Ollie
I can't decide if I think you're cynical or prophetic. Your thought had not occurred to me.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Fredo » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:35 am

If the new licensing model of Avid is scaring customers away, then I'm sure they are clever and mature enough to find an alternative. A Crossgrade offer from any other company will not make a huge difference.

I have nothing against crossgrade offers as such.
But the very fact that a crossgrade offer is introduced only -and only then- at times when the targeted competitor is in troubled waters, makes it unethical for me.

Let me put it in another way. For those who watch soccer.
When a member of the opposing team is down for some reason (and mostly it's nothing more than some bad acting-not a real injury), the other team kicks the ball out, so the team member can recover. Or at least have looked at by the medics. If business would be business and football would be football, then the opposing team would just continue the game, regardless if the member of the other team is down or not. That's simple fairplay.
Or just call them sissy's, that applies too.

So to come back to the situation. If Steinberg would have offered a permanent crossgrade, I wouldn't have problems with it. But offering it *now*, at the very moment when the competitor is in trouble is unethical to me.
It's not because "an enemy" is in trouble water that I need to give 'em a push so he drawns for sure. or that I will watch by the side of the lake, while laughing in his face.

Just my personal opinion, everyone is free to disagree.
Fredo

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Bifop » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:09 am

Fredo, your analogy just doesn't apply on this case.
Avid are not in troubles or if they are, it is they own decision.
If now is no times for a crossgrade offer, when is it then ?

Avid is an elephant stepping on your foot and you say sorry...
As much as I undestand what your saying and pretty much appreciate this kind of fairplay in everyday's life, here I'd say "kill them" instead.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Puma0382 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:31 pm

Bifop wrote: Avid are not in troubles or if they are, it is they own decision
I agree with this - Avid have some, err, 'investor relations' to sort out that I hear, but otherwise they are a very dominant and ongoing market player. The new strategy may yet prove a winner for them (*cough* Adobe) - they may lose a few customers, but they also could set themselves up to (almost) guarantee a set/predictable annual income stream. Investors simply love solid/repeatable results - that they can then squeeze the company with to try and perform better and better, and make them more money. Now, thats when it can all start seriously going a bit Pete Tong; but that might be 5 years away. Avid will need to be given the chance to at least make some money back for them... ;-)

As to any 'crossgrade offer' from SB, it would have to have some compelling added incentive over and above what is already available - otherwise its just another same ol' advert for Nuendo. I don't think SB are in a position to do that; its the sort of thing that might have happened (if they were going to do anything) during the '30th Anniversary' offers this year.

Having said all that, I would love for SB to get more Nuendo/Cubase market share. Cubase is the product I love to work with and want to continue to see it developed/supported.
Last edited by Puma0382 on Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:37 pm

I would love to agree with Fredo here but since the opponent is Avid that is know not to play it fair (omf, aaf etc) I would not hesitate to hit back on every single situation possible.
If opponent is playing "fair play" then it is another story...
Bye / Tumppi
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Fredo » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:34 pm

From yet another point of view, I would be highly dissapoined if Avid users would switch to Nuendo *only* because there is an incentive. As said before, I don't see the need for an incentive. People who want to make the switch, will make the switch to any best alternative available. So offering an crossgrade *now* is just laughing in the face of the opponent for no reason.

But again, just my opinion.
Fredo

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:07 pm

Fredo wrote:So offering an crossgrade *now* is just laughing in the face of the opponent for no reason.

But again, just my opinion.
Fredo
Just like Avid would do...
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:35 pm

Fredo wrote:From yet another point of view, I would be highly dissapoined if Avid users would switch to Nuendo *only* because there is an incentive. As said before, I don't see the need for an incentive. People who want to make the switch, will make the switch to any best alternative available. So offering an crossgrade *now* is just laughing in the face of the opponent for no reason.

But again, just my opinion.
Fredo
I disagree with pretty much all you've written in this thread.

More users for Nuendo = more revenue and a bigger responsibility for Steinberg to improve the app. That's beneficial for everyone using the app. How that would be "disappointing" is beyond me. I simply don't get it.

And you're just wrong about the need for an incentive. While some surely choose based on other reasons there are plenty of PT users that have a tight budget and view Nuendo as a too expensive alternative. Cost is an issue to them.

But yeah, that's just your opinion and this was just mine. It just boggles my mind that someone wouldn't support the company whose website one's moderating because the competitor's feelings might be hurt or whatever the other consequences of this unethical crossgrade would be (I have absolutely no idea what they would be, in a million years).

Avid would squash Steinberg in the ground with a filthy boot if it had the chance, just to get rid of Cubase. Guaranteed.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Fredo » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:56 pm

And that's how wars start.
:)

I don't care what others would do. I don't do things because "others do it too". Or "would do it too"
We could start a filosophical discussion about morals and ethics, but this is not the place for it.

Have a nice weekend
Fredo

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:01 pm

Fredo wrote:And that's how wars start.
:)

I don't care what others would do. I don't do things because "others do it too". Or "would do it too"
We could start a filosophical discussion about morals and ethics, but this is not the place for it.

Have a nice weekend
Fredo
Then I guess you shouldn't have started talking about morals and ethics then, right? ;)

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by lukasbrooklyn » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:03 pm

Fredo wrote:And that's how wars start.
:)

I don't care what others would do. I don't do things because "others do it too". Or "would do it too"
We could start a filosophical discussion about morals and ethics, but this is not the place for it.

Have a nice weekend
Fredo
you're tilting at windmills here, the whole capitalist world is based on incentives and without them there would be no nuendo in the 1st place. i understand and support principles of solidarity in certain areas and am glad they are in place here in europe (health & education), but the DAW market is a different playground.
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.4, (c8)
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, EL Fatso ...

http://www.lukasturza.com // http://www.snapmastering.com // music production / mixing / mastering [hybris, upbeats, noisia, rem koolhaas, czech television, havas, ogilvy, ...]

cubendo supercharged workflow ideas/threads of possible interest:
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=63450
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=38182
my supercharged workflow videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ellGhSdmXfk

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Rickard » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:12 pm

I don't see anything unethical about Steinberg offering incentives. It is still the customer's choice.

I think it is only unethical when the customer has no choice as Avid has done time and time again. Avid has successfully leveraged its market share to force many to stay with them. An example: OMF used to be over a $1000 option, with the "lite" versions, if you wanted to commit the heresy of porting to a different system. They set it up so that it wasn't "may the best DAW win". They are the 800 pound gorilla. I own Pro Tools now simply because I had no choice.

That being said, Pro Tools is not a bad system. Though I much prefer Nuendo.

Dean
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by OBR_cws » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:06 am

It makes me laugh when people are trying to put business decisions into ethics etc. This is business and Avid brought this on themselves if anything. If Avid owners don't want to use the Crossgrade offer, they are not forced to are they? There are no ethics in business anymore (if ever) and to me this whole discussion is a bit pointless. Fredo is playing a devil's advocate here whilst (O bet) using his lovely Apple products - company who's well known for exploiting both competition and their manufacturing sites employees....

To me it's very simple... If someone does want to opt out of Avid's new terms - they have a solid option to consider. There is no gun put to their heads or anything so get over it mister Fredo...

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by GTBannah » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:42 pm

I'm just a fly on the wall here.

Un-fortunately, commenting seems to be the only to follow this conversation.
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