Crossgrade from PT offer

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:25 am

Pro Tools Expert has done a vote to find out what users are planning to do with their PT licenses.
At least form the result of this unofficial web poll it looks like quite a few users are planning to abandon their platform.

http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-pa ... qus_thread

I have kept and upgraded my PT license, despite the fact that I do 99.5% of my jobs in Nuendo.
For a forced $600 dollars / year they are going to lose me for sure.

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Big K » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:49 am

Fredo wrote:From yet another point of view, I would be highly dissapoined if Avid users would switch to Nuendo *only* because there is an incentive. As said before, I don't see the need for an incentive. People who want to make the switch, will make the switch to any best alternative available. So offering an crossgrade *now* is just laughing in the face of the opponent for no reason.
But again, just my opinion.
Fredo
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I don't know, if we nuendo users are in any way responsible for the ethics of Avid customers.
I rather think the collective companies under avid’s roof don’t give a bag of beans about us...and would like to chew SB up, anytime, if it wasn’t a part of Yamaha.
But, ... I know quite a few PT-guys who had gladly changed over to Nuendo if there had been anything like a crossgrade offer. Never underestimate the power of a little incentive gift.
It is done anytime and everywhere on this dreaded planet and called business and competition.

Hey, we are not talking about a frail half-dead kitten, laying in the middle of the mainroad…
There is no ethical conflict there if SB introduces a crossgrade offer now.
PT used heavy boots many times before and didn’t look left nor right and thus became much too powerful and popular for its performance. Not nice, but veeery efficient.
And a laughing face can have such positive effects on people…. Lol…

Cheers, Big K
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Boatman » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:09 am

Fredo, your attitude is foolish in the extreme.

It's like this: If Avid screws its customers, and Steinberg offers a special crossgrade to Avid's disaffected users, what is really happening is that Avid is being made to suffer financially for its poor treatment of its customers. And this is, after all, about Avid's poor treatment of their customers.

And let me tell you this: that companies take advantage of their customers is a huge problem and it's a huge problem every day, and that huge problem exists because there are too many companies that know that there are no consequences for their sleazy behavior. If they thought that there would be negative consequences, there would be much less of such behavior. Possibly if Avid knew that not only would their users be unhappy with Avid's latest policies but that other companies would attempt to capitalize on PT users' disaffection, then maybe Avid wouldn't have decided to screw their customers in the first place. And you wouldn't have to worry about Steinberg having too many users, or users who do not have a sufficiently pure love of Steinberg products.

The more companies that suffer for poor treatment of their clients and customers, the better the world will be for everyone. Example: Makemusic is offering a competitve crossgrade for Sibelius users, and it is a very very tempting offer; I can crossgrade from my very old version of Sibelius to the latest Finale for $139. Are they being unethical for making such an offer? Will *I* be unethical when I take advantage of it? Don't make me laugh.

So the best thing for everyone, except the people who run Avid - and people like them - would be for Avid to suffer as much as possible for their antics. And Steinberg offering a crossgrade could, maybe, help that wonderful dream come true.

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by GTBannah » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:05 pm

Boatman wrote:Fredo, your attitude is foolish in the extreme.

....
Easy now, let's be respectful! Disagree, be passionate, but leave the "labels" outside, please. ;)
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by iBM » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:34 pm

It is nothing wrong about offering a PT to Nuendo crossgrade at all. Perfect timing in my book.

PS. But how is Fredo now going about moderate this thread. And all other threads in which he strongly argument.
Trying to be an ordinary forum member and a moderator at once is no good combination, ethically speaking :lol:

Nah, it's business my friend.
A big marketing event/stunt and a good PT to Nuendo crossgrade ASAP, is the way to go IMO.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Big K » Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:51 pm

No, Fredo is not foolish ... but he is robust and says his piece which is quite ok, even if it is, refreshingly, not always the opinion of other businessmen who have gone harder over the time.

Yes, it is all business ... and ..should there be a little incentive for existing Nuendees?
YES! .. lol ... Payed for by the revenue comming from the cross grade sales.

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Fredo » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:03 pm

iBM wrote:But how is Fredo now going about moderate this thread. And all other threads in which he strongly argument.
In exact the same way as I have always done.
By trying to keep my integrety.
What I personally think has nothing to do with the job I am doing here.

Fredo

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:33 pm

Fredo wrote:
iBM wrote:But how is Fredo now going about moderate this thread. And all other threads in which he strongly argument.
In exact the same way as I have always done.
By trying to keep my integrety.
What I personally think has nothing to do with the job I am doing here.

Fredo
That's probably not what he was talking about. As a user you do one thing and then you turn around as a moderator and tell other people not to do the same. You can have "integrity" in the sense that you voice your opinion honestly, nobody doubts that, but as a moderator when you act like that there's more "inconsistency" rather than "integrity".
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Fredo » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:46 pm

Yeah, you are correct.
I am sorry I conflict with your personal morals.
Not that I'm going for Seppuku though...


Fredo

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:50 pm

Fredo wrote:Yeah, you are correct.
I am sorry I conflict with your personal morals.
The above is the new level of discourse you prefer? Or is it once again reserved for the moderator only?
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Dog and Pony » Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:02 pm

Of course consistently baiting the moderator is kind of a fool's errand.

Back to the matter at hand, c'mon Steinberg, this is the PERFECT time for a crossgrade offer!!!
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Fredo » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:11 pm

Lydiot wrote:The above is the new level of discourse you prefer? Or is it once again reserved for the moderator only?
I have only seen arguments why I shouldn't follow ethics and my own morals.
Which is something different than questioning and discussing the morals by itself.

Trying to keep my integrety also means respecting the opinion of someone else.
Yours and Steinbergs'.
If Steinberg would offer a crossgrade offer *now*, then I would be able to live with that.
But that wouldn't change anything about my opinion on the subject.
You do not share my opinion, but I can't see why this should result in a -negative- politics agenda.
I do not share your opinion, but that still doesn't mean I will ban you from this forum.

So let's put this to rest.
I don't think a crossgrade *now* a good idea, you do think it is a good idea.
So we agree to disagree. That should have been the final conclusion. Done and over with.

There is absolutely no need to turn this into a politics war, so one of both can come out of this "fight" as a winner.
So I think we have to put this discussion to an end.
If you still want to say something, do it polite and respectful.
But I would prefer that it stops here and now.

Have a nice weekend.
Fredo

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Hopetown » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:16 am

Fredo, the problem with your analogy, well one problem, is that the soccer player will recover, or a substitute will be sent in and the quality of the team will be pretty much instantly restored. And, you specifically considering what Avid has done a self-injury. Who are we to say? Maybe they planned that they would lose X amount of customers and still come out ahead based on (severely) increase revenue?

As I recall, Avid has had a few miserable years in terms of profit. I imagine investors are getting antsy about it. This is a something of a desperate move to gin up profits. Is that an injury? Or is it a lack of innovation? The users are the ones facing an injury. The choices they are being offered result in a LOT more money out of their pockets just to maintain the level of service they already have. To offer them a better solution for their business needs is not an unfair taking advantage of Avid, it's making a life-line available to their customers for whom the new paradigm really isn't an option.

Anyway, this is partly SB's fault as they should've had a crossgrade in place all along. So if there is a feeling of impropriety because Avid is vulnerable...what it really is is a tremendous missed opportunity on the part of SB. Magix and others have standing crossgrades. THAT is simply good business.

Another perspective is, win/lose or draw, both Soccer teams will be back next year to try again. Avid/Digi has certainly offered a business-ending threat to SB in the past. SB has innovated their way through it and at least up until now, not shot themselves in the foot by forcing their customers into such a horrible deal. LOL! Imagine if we had all been on a subscription when it took....how long to go from N4 to N5? Imagine if SB has rushed the software out crippled (PT11) because of the subscription?

I waited years to purchase PT. Finally with PT11 I jumped on board because they FINALLY had found a price vs feature match that made it even plausible. Now? There's no way in hell I'm paying every year regardless of what they develop. PT11 is still flakey and unstable. AND they released it before there were any plugins available for it! There still aren't many AAX DSP plugs. I know a studio who moved from HD to HDX.....all his projects just crashed on opening because they all went from DSP to Native even though he shelled out for an HDX system. The plugs just weren't/aren't available. And now they want more money before any of this has been fixed/addressed? (That studio in now investing heavily in hardware solutions, even things like time-based effects).

This is Avid causing a trainwreck by diverting 2 trains carrying all their passengers into each other at full speed and then charging the families to carry away the dead. They have a broken or at least underdeveloped product that most of the professional industry relies on, and they are looking for profits before offering a solution.

You want to talk about unethical? LOL.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by iBM » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:48 am

Lydiot wrote:
Fredo wrote:
iBM wrote:But how is Fredo now going about moderate this thread. And all other threads in which he strongly argument.
In exact the same way as I have always done.
By trying to keep my integrety.
What I personally think has nothing to do with the job I am doing here.

Fredo
That's probably not what he was talking about. As a user you do one thing and then you turn around as a moderator and tell other people not to do the same. You can have "integrity" in the sense that you voice your opinion honestly, nobody doubts that, but as a moderator when you act like that there's more "inconsistency" rather than "integrity".
Who is/are you personally, and who is/are you as a moderator? That's what I'm talking about.

I have a hard time seeing that in one moment "a moderator" is a regular user, in the next he is a moderator.
This has VERY much to do with where the line is drawn (what is acceptable and not), whether the thread/posts are suiteable to your liking or not (seen it more than once). It is just not avoidable (we are humans).
That's why these two roles shouldn't be mixed up.

PS. This is not aimed at Fredo personally.
THIS GOES FOR ALL MODERATORS OF ALL FORUMS, that also act as a regular forum member.

Have you ever seen how the language of former forum members have changed (sometimes radically) after being promoted as External Moderators?
If not, take a closer look.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Phonetical » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:58 pm

In terms of *attracting* PT users, I feel that as Nuendo users ourselves it's on us to inform and educate the folks we work with and around.

One tiny stumbling block is the e-licenser thing. I've convinced a friend that owns a successful sound library company that in terms of efficiency, Nuendo is absolutely light years ahead of ProTools. The idea of ordering an e-licenser for $40, waiting for it, then using it to check out the very awesome 500 free hours of Nuendo, although not a big deal to people who already have Nuendo, seems a bit clunky. The amount of time is absolutely perfect in terms of a demo, I just wish there was an easier way for people to play immediately.

But seriously - I'll do a screen share with him, help him set up outputs and cycle markers and his work process will see a very gracious boost in efficiency, making his hour more valuable.

And that's how I convinced the last facility I worked at that Nuendo was the right choice - I completed more billable work per hour in Nuendo, not do to my skill set or having more familiarity with ProTools (10+ years), but because of the tools available to me right from the start. Now that I'm freelance, the same applies, though in order to be part of teams I have no choice but to use ProTools.

That brings me to another point -

Gaming - I know Guerrilla Games (Killzone) uses Nuendo in their studios. I had a chance to meet with Anton Woldhek at GDC this year and we had great discussions about how we use Batch Export and Cycle Marker Export to output game elements in as many flavors possible as efficiently as possible. Game composer Guy Whitmore has literally just ditched ProTools for all the reasons we've listed here for Nuendo - the Facebook Game Audio Denizens page totally blew up after that post - Mark Kilborn (Raven Software, COD), Rodney Gates (Sony Online), Rob Pearsall. I don't know if I feel like Steinberg is dropping the ball here with gaming a little bit as much as I don't feel like they're as aggressive as they can be, especially right now. PT users are starting to understand that offline bounce is small change compared to what we can do and how we can do it in Nuendo - it's literally a completely new workflow. Maybe that's what's so intimidating - I've met few to no ProTools users that are at all interested in learning another DAW, same response - "Why would I learn another tool? That's time and money wasted when I can already do all that with ProTools." I feel like that should be Steinberg's rally cry.

Anyways - I think there might be a benefit to making the demo just a bit more immediately accessible (40+ free hours until e-licenser comes?) and jumping in to some more post and game studios that use Nuendo specifically for the features that other tools do not have.

Cheers!
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:20 pm

Phonetical wrote:In terms of *attracting* PT users, I feel that as Nuendo users ourselves it's on us to inform and educate the folks we work with and around.
Well, I have a few opinions about that (which is surprising I'm sure).

First of all there's the question of whether that's really my job or Steinberg's and whether there's something in it for me. It's obviously not my job, but I suppose there could be an argument for why I'd benefit somehow.

Secondly, if I did though, then it's also my responsibility to make the person happy. If I convince someone or some studio to switch over, and they're not happy regardless of if it's for a good reason, then that negative sentiment is tainting me as well. Do I want to take that risk?

Thirdly, even if there's 'something in it for me' and responsibility is no issue, what are my arguments for people to make the switch?

- In the US post market Pro Tools is king. Why would a facility switch to Nuendo when all engineers know Pro Tools? Imagine switching over to Nuendo in New York, with perhaps 2 or 3 good Nuendo engineers doing post. Suppose then that one guy gets sick and the other one or two are booked, then what? If you want an at least decent PT engineer you can throw a rock in the city and you'll hit one.

- Can engineers themselves therefore be convinced that they'll benefit from switching? It's one thing for a facility to perhaps look at it financially and figure out that it's better to run Nuendo (no need for SoundMiner, separate Control Room gear, separate ADR software etc) but different for the engineer. He'd need to educate himself, get a copy himself, adjust his workflow (no VCAs, no sensible grouping)...
Phonetical wrote:One tiny stumbling block is the e-licenser thing. I've convinced a friend that owns a successful sound library company that in terms of efficiency, Nuendo is absolutely light years ahead of ProTools. The idea of ordering an e-licenser for $40, waiting for it, then using it to check out the very awesome 500 free hours of Nuendo, although not a big deal to people who already have Nuendo, seems a bit clunky.
This I would actually disagree with. I think that's just a matter of explaining that he's wagering only $25 minus whatever he can sell the e-licenser for afterwards with the potential of getting a better situation as an engineer. So if he can sell it for $15, which is a good deal for anyone buying, he's out $10 which isn't even two beers in NY. It's nothing. Clunky? I don't know, I just bought a second e-licenser in case my main breaks since Steinberg is now offering zero downtime. Took 2 minutes to order on Amazon and showed up a day later with Amazon Prime shipping.

I know a lot of people hate on dongles, but I like the stuff. My licenses travel with me and I've so far have very little problem with them.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by iBM » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:03 am

Phonetical wrote:In terms of *attracting* PT users, I feel that as Nuendo users ourselves it's on us to inform and educate the folks we work with and around.
I have "preached" Nuendo to the PT crowd since Nuendo 1.6............. All the way up to Nuendo 5.5 (This goes for Cubase up to C6.5).

When the mixer and control room changed (in that radical way) in Nuendo 6/6.5, I almost "preached" my self the other way. Same goes for Cubase 7/7.5 ;)

No, it is NOT my job. It IS Steinberg's job to get customers, as well as keep them satisfied.

PS. I also happem to "love" the dongle thingy, as well as my iLok. Last time I checked (yesterday ;-)) Pro Tools needed an iLok to run.
I can't see the difference, in practice, between an eLicenser and an iLok :? You also need it to demo PT as far as I know.
But for a time limited demo, no DAW should not have to use a dongle (but in the risk of being hacked in a heartbeat, they have to).

I have not understood Steinberg's marketing methods ever. It is not about to change this time around either. I just don't get it (not the point either).
A PT to Nuendo crossgrade will not start World War 3 :mrgreen:
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Big K » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:28 am

+1
But it can raise sales numbers for Nuendo and thus either pay for more manpower in the developement ( even better: in the QA & bug fix) department and/or make Nuendo more affordable and broaden the userbase. My words since 1.5, too.

Yet, I could not agree more: Nuendo's biggest handycap is the ludicrous design changes which came with 6.x ....I can no more recommend Nuendo, since I am not using it beyond 5.5.x

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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:11 am

I hereby welcome all PT users who ware peeking over the fence into the Nuendo forum.
Don't worry. Nothing will change when you move from PT to Nuendo.

You will just need to change your bookmarks from DUC to here and you will get the same annoying debates about who has the right to say what....

:lol:
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Phonetical » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:24 pm

Yeah, I don't think it's anyone's job to educate, and I don't think I suggested as much, only that it would be absurd to think that the real-world users of this software wouldn't see the value in attracting others to investing their time and money in learning a new tool. That's the hangup with getting others over IMO, it's the time, and time = money, and Steinberg cannot reason with sound editors that it's worth their time/money to learn Nuendo. We, the folks using Nuendo in the community, can absolutely reason in a real world sense with one another in terms of billable hours, budgets, etc.

Whether or not we want to spend our time attracting people over to Nuendo is another discussion. It's simply a convenience that no one needs to make the argument that everyone should use ProTools. It's because everyone already does, pretty much. Not making the argument to use Nuendo really doesn't do anything to attract anyone over.

And I don't know what IBM is saying about the e-licenser vs. ilok thing. There's clearly a need to have a secure licensing system. I was just saying that I wish my buddy could download and start using immediately, perhaps for 40 hours, before needing the elicenser. Yes, ProTools works with iLoks, I use them and that is cool. Feels like you have some beef or something.
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by iBM » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:07 am

No beef at all :D
I just commented that Nuendo is not alone to need some sort of dongle for their demo to work. PT need that as well.

I do of corse agree that every DAW should be able to have a "dongle-less" demo product. But you know just as well as me, why they do it like this.
Without the hardware protection, the software will of corse be "cracked" in a short time. And we do not want that.

Sorry, but I have no better idea of how to protect their property than some sort of hardware solution. Maybe a dongle for rent, with a deposit sum, or?
Any others?
TSR - Now a division under The Tower Studio Suite - Run by my uncles nephew

Win7/Win8 x64 | Intel i5 2500/3570K | 16 GB RAM | MOTU PCIe-424 w/ 24io x 2 / 2408 / 308
Cubase 6.5/7.5 - Nuendo 5.5 | CC121 | Slate Digital | Softube | Sonnox | SoundToys |
Eventide | Exponential Audio | Boz' Digital Lab | +++
Dynaudio BM15A | Focusrite ISA430 | Universal Audio LA-610SE/2-610/8110 |
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GTBannah
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by GTBannah » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:02 pm

iBM wrote:....
Without the hardware protection, the software will of corse be "cracked" in a short time. And we do not want that.

....
Unfortunately, the fellas will crack it with or without the dongle .... :(
Derrkins

If that's really what you hear, Play It, Sing It, Write It or Program It!

Mac Mini, 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM; OS X Mojave 10.14.5; Nuendo 8.3.20.345; Sibelius 7.5; iPad Pro 13"; Cubasis, WaveLab 9.00; Dorico V2.2.0.1108 (Loving it).

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iBM
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by iBM » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:56 am

GTBannah wrote:
iBM wrote:....
Without the hardware protection, the software will of corse be "cracked" in a short time. And we do not want that.

....
Unfortunately, the fellas will crack it with or without the dongle .... :(
I don't think neither Cubase 7.5 or Nuendo 6.5 has been successfully cracked (nor the C6 and N5 cycle). Like 100% working :?

The last working Nuendo "crack" I know is Nuendo 4.3............ That is many years ago.

PS. Anyway, It is a lot harder to crack the hardware protection, not entirely impossible.

Back on topic: Yes, do offer a PT to Nuendo crossgrade ASAP ;)
TSR - Now a division under The Tower Studio Suite - Run by my uncles nephew

Win7/Win8 x64 | Intel i5 2500/3570K | 16 GB RAM | MOTU PCIe-424 w/ 24io x 2 / 2408 / 308
Cubase 6.5/7.5 - Nuendo 5.5 | CC121 | Slate Digital | Softube | Sonnox | SoundToys |
Eventide | Exponential Audio | Boz' Digital Lab | +++
Dynaudio BM15A | Focusrite ISA430 | Universal Audio LA-610SE/2-610/8110 |
TLAudio 5052/C1/PA-1 | TC Electronics R4000/M3000/M-One/D-Two | +++

GTBannah
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by GTBannah » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:13 am

Hopetown wrote:....Magix and others have standing crossgrades. ....
Those crossgrades are only within the Samplitude family. You can't even crossgrade from Samplitude to Sequoia, let alone from outside the family.

If Steiny had offered a crossgrade, I would have been here before. Windoze is too frustrating, and ProTools proved to be un-predictable, especially when it came to "music-for-picture".

The crossgrade thing is a matter of "business model". As stated earlier, Steiny isn't alone in this regard.
Derrkins

If that's really what you hear, Play It, Sing It, Write It or Program It!

Mac Mini, 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM; OS X Mojave 10.14.5; Nuendo 8.3.20.345; Sibelius 7.5; iPad Pro 13"; Cubasis, WaveLab 9.00; Dorico V2.2.0.1108 (Loving it).

Oliver.Lucas
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Re: Crossgrade from PT offer

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:09 pm

On thing that keeps me smiling sometimes is to have a look at the ProTools Idea Scale.
Go through the first page of suggestions by users, then hear your inner mantra:

"Nuendo can do it, Nuendo can do it, Nuendo can do it....."

:D

I guess Fredo is right, these are the reasons why PT users should cross/upgrade to Nuendo.

Ollie
Main machine: Fireface UFX+ 64GB, 2TB Hecacore macmini 10.14.x, egpu
Avid ProTools Ulitimate and S3. A gazillion plugings

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