[FR] mono outs

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Cantankerous
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[FR] mono outs

Post by Cantankerous » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:50 am

I really loved how HALion 3 had the ability to choose whether your assigned outputs were to be mono, or stereo and the amount was scalable between the two. Dedicated mono outs are perfect for things like drums, percussion, vocals, bass, etc that are generally set to mono, while leaving everything else in stereo. This made processing so simple from HALion 3. HALion 4 took this away and left us with 32 output channels which is fantastic, but they were all statically set to stereo and these cannot be changed. I don't want everything to go to a stereo output. This makes things worse when Cubase doesn't have a dedicated mono/stereo switch button on the fader channels and when using my UAD plugins which have dedicated mono and stereo variants, I would love to use a mono variant on a mono channel in order to save on DSP. Force centering the panning on an output channel and using a mono variant of the plugin does not work. The sound it played back phased and with audible artifacts and it just isn't right. I am forced to use stereo versions to achieve the desired outcome and this uses more DSP for nothing. Can we please have the ability to have mono outputs selectable from the outputs list, or perhaps a button on the HALion mixer output channel to turn it into mono? I have used the stereo pan plugin effect from within HALion, set to 0 to have a mono output, but this doesn't change being able to use mono dedicated UAD plugins to save on DSP power unfortunately.
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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by Bacizone » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:59 am

An easy solution:
1. send your HALion program just to a separate stereo output in Cubase MixConsole
2. In Cubase, set this track's pan to Stereo Combined Panner
3. Set both sides to Center.

Instant mono!

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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by Cantankerous » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:23 pm

Yes, this is how I currently do it, however, putting a dedicated mono plugin into a channel after doing this does not have it sound as it should. It sounds very phasey and just plain strange, like it is only processing one side of the signal. If put the exact same plugin on a full mono channel out from HALion 3 it sounds perfect. If I put a stereo variant of the same plugin onto the stereo output in HALion 4/5 it sounds perfect and exactly as the mono plugin sounds on the mono output of HALion 3, but at the expense of higher DSP load unnecessarily.
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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by mozizo » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:25 pm

Bacizone wrote:An easy solution:
1. send your HALion program just to a separate stereo output in Cubase MixConsole
2. In Cubase, set this track's pan to Stereo Combined Panner
3. Set both sides to Center.

Instant mono!
Its very bad solution to make stereo sound As mono sound...
Yes, this is how I currently do it, however, putting a dedicated mono plugin into a channel after doing this does not have it sound as it should. It sounds very phasey and just plain strange,
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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by JMCecil » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:30 pm

I fight with myself on this quite a bit. There are certain elements that work better MONO. Using the stereo summing techniques don't give you mono. They give you summed stereo. Which is not even close to the same thing.

I just let everything be stereo right now. Which is one reason I don't do a lot of drums/percussion stuff in Halion. So another +1 for mono audio paths in Halion.
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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by Cantankerous » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:13 am

So you guys see exactly what issues I am having then. True and pure mono is exactly what I am after, NOT summed stereo as JMCecil pointed out. I have noticed from the very beginning of using HALion 4, that my drums and bass do in fact quite sound quite different then they did in HALion 3, especially with plugins thrown on their respective Cubase output channel for further processing. I really would like dedicated mono outs like HALion 3 had, as this is definitely a regression in this aspect going from HALion 3 to 4, or 5.
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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by Guest » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:44 am

Cantankerous wrote:True and pure mono is exactly what I am after, NOT summed stereo
Shouldn't the source material be mono then?

As we know there are different kind of ways to go from stereo to mono (use center channel, use one channel, use sum of both etc.). The best method, all depends on the source material and the result ones after.
When they just add a mono bus to send the stereo programs to, it won't solve any (phasing) issue's you already have, unless you have control over what part of the stereo signal will go to the mono bus. So if they add mono busses, a welcome addition would be a M/S encoder/decoder.

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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by JMCecil » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:12 pm

Niles wrote:
Cantankerous wrote:True and pure mono is exactly what I am after, NOT summed stereo
Shouldn't the source material be mono then?

As we know there are different kind of ways to go from stereo to mono (use center channel, use one channel, use sum of both etc.). The best method, all depends on the source material and the result ones after.
When they just add a mono bus to send the stereo programs to, it won't solve any (phasing) issue's you already have, unless you have control over what part of the stereo signal will go to the mono bus. So if they add mono busses, a welcome addition would be a M/S encoder/decoder.
H5 will let you load a mono sample just fine. You can record mono in Cubase and drag .. .boom mono sample. However from that point it is treated stereo. You can play games by panning hard left or right and sending through a group, but it is such a hassle that I don't bother. I rarely, if ever, do kit type drums/perc in Halion.
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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by Guest » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:03 pm

JMCecil wrote:H5 will let you load a mono sample just fine. You can record mono in Cubase and drag .. .boom mono sample. However from that point it is treated stereo. You can play games by panning hard left or right and sending through a group, but it is such a hassle that I don't bother. I rarely, if ever, do kit type drums/perc in Halion.
As long as you keep the two channels identical in the digital domain, the signal is mono, whether it is spit out to one, two, three or four channels doesn't change that. For instance when you have a mono bus in your mix routed to a stereo bus doesn't make the signal (sound) stereo, while the output file technically is a capable of reproducing stereo signals.

So fiddling with the image isn't necessary when you have a mono file. But if you want to keep it mono, you should treat it as mono by keeping the channels identical and stay away from effects that alter the directional information.
This goes for effects inside Halion, but also in the DAW
So if you want true mono capabilities from Halion 5 you should also request mono versions of the FX along the mono busses otherwise you'll still end up with a sum of the two channels.

A big benefit I could imagine from adding mono busses is, you don't waste unnecessary channels. After all, one stereo channel used for mono material is one mono channel wasted.

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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by JMCecil » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:32 pm

Niles wrote:
JMCecil wrote:H5 will let you load a mono sample just fine. You can record mono in Cubase and drag .. .boom mono sample. However from that point it is treated stereo. You can play games by panning hard left or right and sending through a group, but it is such a hassle that I don't bother. I rarely, if ever, do kit type drums/perc in Halion.
As long as you keep the two channels identical in the digital domain, the signal is mono, whether it is spit out to one, two, three or four channels doesn't change that. For instance when you have a mono bus in your mix routed to a stereo bus doesn't make the signal (sound) stereo, while the output file technically is a capable of reproducing stereo signals.

So fiddling with the image isn't necessary when you have a mono file. But if you want to keep it mono, you should treat it as mono by keeping the channels identical and stay away from effects that alter the directional information.
This goes for effects inside Halion, but also in the DAW
So if you want true mono capabilities from Halion 5 you should also request mono versions of the FX along the mono busses otherwise you'll still end up with a sum of the two channels.

A big benefit I could imagine from adding mono busses is, you don't waste unnecessary channels. After all, one stereo channel used for mono material is one mono channel wasted.
Agreed, but the problem is as soon as you pan, you lose that mono stability in phase. So yes, we would need a complete mono path through H5 including fx.
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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by Bacizone » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:24 am

Did someone test which mono-making method is applied when Cubase Stereo Enhancer plug-in's Mono switch is switched on?

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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by No1DaBeats » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:32 pm

It's L+R I guess.
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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by Bacizone » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:27 pm

Best solution so far is the free bx_solo plug-in: https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/plug ... _solo.html

Takes the left or the right channel and sends to each side of the output. No cancellation, stereo to mono summing phasing issues. Sure, it has less information but this what is mono about...
Last edited by Bacizone on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [FR] mono outs

Post by Cantankerous » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:11 am

Bacizone wrote:Best solution so far is the free bx_solo plug-in: https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/plug ... _solo.html

Takes the left or the right channel and sends to each side of the output. No cancellation, stereo to mono summing phasing issues. Course it has less information but this what is mono about...
Thanks for this info Bacizone, I will personally give it a try and see how it fares.
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