VST2 being killed off by steinberg (not)

Matthias, please let us not split hairs.
I am no native english Speaker. It looks like you got what I wanted to say.

Some interesting other views from 3rd party devs, on the whole VST2 versus 3 topic. There’s a thread on the KVR forum pages under ‘DSP and Plugin Development’ category, with ‘VST3’ in its title. Its a thread started in 2008; I’d suggest starting reading from half-way down page 5, a post from BlueCatAudio.

(don’t think its allowable forum etiquette here, to post the link directly).

I’d paraphrase the content/essence for you here; but its always better having it for yourselves, straight from the horses mouth… :wink:

cheers,
puma

As long as there’s nothing illegal, spammy or nsfw, not a prob.

This is what BlueCat Audio had to say about VST3 in that thread (written April 18, 2018, before Steinberg’s announcement):

Regardless of implementation and design considerations, our feeling, both as a host and plug-in manufacturer, is that VST3 is still not as mature as VST2 today . Many (if not most) hosts and plug-ins (including Steinberg’s…) are still more stable and predictable in VST2 format. So we still strongly advise customers to use VST2 versions when possible. There are far less surprises and strange bugs with VST2 so far.

Also, the lack of proper MIDI support in VST3 causes many problems. For example, it looks like every developer is using the same hack to receive MIDI CC events (and we do too), but it causes thousands of extra parameters to be exposed when they have not been properly disabled for automation. And if you want to output MIDI CC messages from a plug-in, there is still no solution.

So we implemented VST3 support because customers were asking for it (mainly for Cubase side chain and because of Cubase’s window resize bug on Windows for plug-ins - and on the host side because some plug-ins only exists as VST3). But honestly, if there is no strong incentive of doing it, just skip it for now.

Wow, it seems quit damnng. Does anyone here have any thoughts, pro vs. con, about BlueCat Audio’s opinion there?

I like VST3 from the point of view of: a) It is easier on the CPU (no processing performed if no audio is being run through it), b) and ease of sidechaining.

How does Reaper do sidechaining, if it doesn’t have VST3?

Here is what one programmer wrote on Gearslutz…. (I wish I had programming skills so I could fully understand it):

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“VST3 is not that bad except that is doesn’t even support the most basic MIDI spec(plugin side), so if you ever dreamed of a new MIDI plug-in, Steinberg just killed MIDI plug-ins.”

Is this true?

More on the topic of MIDI, its a concerning read from BlueCatAudio when they say:-

“Also, the lack of proper MIDI support in VST3 causes many problems. For example, it looks like every developer is using the same hack to receive MIDI CC events (and we do too), but it causes thousands of extra parameters to be exposed when they have not been properly disabled for automation. And if you want to output MIDI CC messages from a plug-in, there is still no solution.”

I read some real-world evidence, that this is appearing in the ‘Fairlight’ module of DaVinci Resolve 15 Beta; complainers (3rd party plugin Devs) through BlackMagicDesigns forum, are asking how on earth they’re supposed to cope with VST3 plugins displaying/exposing over 2000 automation parameters to the user.!

They (plugin Devs) think its a BlackMagicDesigns ‘problem’ to fix…

There’s completely seperate framework dedicated to MIDI – the VST Module Architecture SDK – however I’m not aware of any host that implements it, other than Cubase/Nuendo. This is what gives us things like Arpache. I don’t think the announcement regarding VST2 changes anything here. IMHO VST2 was a clunky way of implementing a MIDI plugin, but a necessity if you wanted your plugin to be usable in any other host.

“Also, the lack of proper MIDI support in VST3 causes many problems. For example, it looks like every developer is using the same hack to receive MIDI CC events (and we do too), but it causes thousands of extra parameters to be exposed when they have not been properly disabled for automation. And if you want to output MIDI CC messages from a plug-in, there is still no solution.”

So alot of complaints from real developers who says they have to work around “bad specs”, esp midi things.

Any comments from Steinberg?

After reading as much available info as I could find on the subject my general impression is that Steinberg hasn’t done enough to support a ‘official’ move to VST3, even though they claim they will still support VST2 in their products such as Cubase and Wavelab, only the SDK will no longer be updated. But for how long that will continue is unclear.

In my opinion, Steinberg has perhaps, on occasion, acted somewhat arrogant in certain cases involving ‘their’ VST SDK, and now this move seems to demonstrate the desire to push new technologies and push more sales of updates and upgrades. Even though they have created it and gave it away for free, that majority of the audio community embraced it and also gave back. That is a gift to Steinberg. They do not seem appreciative of the general acceptance of VST in the DAW world, Steinberg’s products have thrived because of the swathes of affordable and professional plugins available. Truth is if they didn’t do this someone else would have, but luckily it has been very good for us so far, with very few exceptions. For the most part, I think the majority of the community is genuinely grateful to Steinberg for what has been accomplished.

Due to some occasions where Steinberg has not seemed interested to further support for existing and working technologies - cases where other developers have made possible what Steinberg didn’t want to;

  • bit bridge wrappers
  • sidechain key input
  • plugin management
    are a few things off the top of my head which are not developer related (I am not a developer).

It seems to me that there is already a list of requirements that need to be made in order to facilitate a ‘proper’ move to a new version (VST3), but so far it’s not certain or predicted that they will happen before this transition occurs. That would be bad IMO for both users like me, and likely make life harder for developers (possibly unnecessary).

One such thing needed in my opinion is a proper support to re-categorize VST3 plugins. I have already contacted several developers about why their plugins are not categorized, they often respond they don’t know how to do it. Why not just let us move them around in the Plugin Manager? The loss of this user control of plugin libraries has been one of the top pain-points I have read so far.

thanks

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I’ve had more problems with vst 3 than vst 2.4 (not a lot, just more)

I’m not sure what this means for me. I use Reason as well and it’s 2.4.

You guys on 2.x - how do you sidechain? Is the “Quadra” method or whatever it’s called still the only native way?

For me, I don’t. I understand that it’s a thing and that people need to be able to do it, but I don’t use it.

In a perfect world, everyone updates. But I think many devs are reluctant. I don’t even begin to understand the reasons why, I just use the stuff :laughing:

They’re not killing support for VST2 in their products though, so they’re not exactly “killing it off”. Devs can still get ahold of VST2 SDK from other devs I’d assume :smiley:

Ihre , Winning Solutions

The latest Superwave P8 version by Christopher Gill is shown as a version VST 1.0. And it is 64 bit. It works. I didn’t think anything VST 1.0 would work today?

To this party kind of late, so obviously right now Cubase 10 pro supports vst2 correct? and future Cubase will still allow older plug ins to work? Or has this changed at all since jan 2019? Thanks

Yes, it supports VST2.

For “future Cubase”, I suppose you would need to ask someone who has been there (to the future, that is).

VST2 will be supported into the foreseeable future, i.e. Cubase will continue to be able to host VST2 plugins; the only thing related to VST2 that is no longer supported by Steinberg is the VST2 “SDK”, the software developer’s kit for that version. By “no longer supported”, it just means the SDK will see no further development. New developments will happen in the VST3 SDK. If you’re not a software developer, it need not concern you.

So, what this means:

– if you have VST2 plugins you like that work in Cubase 10, they will continue to work into the future*
– if a software developer wants to create a new 64-bit VST2 plugin, that will work in Cubase too

*Cubase is now 64-bit only and has long only supported 64-bit VST2 plugins; 32-bit VST2 plugins are no longer supported in Cubase.

Cool thanks a lot, no I am not a programmer so thanks for the layman’s definition, that’s very good to know - because if you think it means you can no longer use vst2 plug-ins that you have, one may get very worried about that!

On the Help center “Moreover, within the next 24 months, Steinberg’s host applications and plug-ins across macOS and Windows will offer VST 3 compatibility only.” So it seems no is the answer.