Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

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Stephen57
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Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Stephen57 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:16 pm

Greetings,

The Windows Audio Meter displays two scales, one is gray, the other is green. (See screenshot)

When I hear some of the better sounding mixes on any of the typical sites -- soundcloud, youtube, etc. -- the Gray Scale is often much greater than the Green Scale.

Is the Gray Scale the Peaks and the Green the RMS? If so, what kind of processing -- plug-in, software package -- would be required to achieve better Peak levels? (Assuming I've correctly identified the Gray/Green Scales as a Peak Reading Meter and RMS).

I've searched extensively and can't find any engineer-level information on this. :?

Windows Mixer 01.png
(15.36 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Thanks in advance for help with this.
-------------------------------------------------------
DAW: Cubase Pro 9.5.41; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Scab Pickens » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:40 pm

You must be special. Mine only have one green meter. Maybe a Professional vs. Home Premium thing?

Anyway, I have no idea what kind of scale they represent. Don't really care, either, I guess. :)
Windows 7 Home Premium Meters.JPG
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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by misohoza » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:01 am

Hi Stephen,

As the volume in Windows control panel is set as percentage my guess is the grey showing what the volume would be at 100% while the green showing the volume according to your settings. If you set it to max you should only see green cause they are the same.
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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:20 am

misohoza wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:01 am
Hi Stephen,

As the volume in Windows control panel is set as percentage my guess is the grey showing what the volume would be at 100% while the green showing the volume according to your settings. If you set it to max you should only see green cause they are the same.
Sounds logical. I'll check that (with actual monitors off).

So, on those mixes where the "Gray Scale" is shooting nearly to the top of the meter range, am I hearing just some kind of extreme limiting?

On some tracks even a solo instrument playing a "quiet part" the Gray Scale is still topping the meter range. I'm not interesting in "winning" a loudness war, but I'd like improve my mixes.

Thanks.
Last edited by Stephen57 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
-------------------------------------------------------
DAW: Cubase Pro 9.5.41; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

Help with Cubase:
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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:43 am

Scab Pickens wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:40 pm
You must be special. Mine only have one green meter. Maybe a Professional vs. Home Premium thing?

Anyway, I have no idea what kind of scale they represent. Don't really care, either, I guess. :)

Windows 7 Home Premium Meters.JPG
heh -- Not caring may be the better choice, but, I'd like to work this out and heaven help us that MS has anything on this (at least as far as I've found).

Running Windows 7 Professional, here's a screen shot of what it looks like on my side. I keep "system sounds" off.
Windows Mixer Scales.png
(38.41 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Am I seeing some kind of extreme limiting in streams? Even solo instruments show this on some tracks. Just puzzled about it. :?

Thanks for the answer and screenshot.
-------------------------------------------------------
DAW: Cubase Pro 9.5.41; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

Help with Cubase:
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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Scab Pickens » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:09 am

misohoza wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:01 am
Hi Stephen,

As the volume in Windows control panel is set as percentage my guess is the grey showing what the volume would be at 100% while the green showing the volume according to your settings. If you set it to max you should only see green cause they are the same.
Ahhh ... yes! I always have my Windows output level at 100%, so I never noticed. Just lowered it and the grey magically appeared.
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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Scab Pickens » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:12 am

Stephen57 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:43 am
... Am I seeing some kind of extreme limiting in streams? ...
Most likely.
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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:34 am

Scab Pickens wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:09 am
misohoza wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:01 am
Hi Stephen,

As the volume in Windows control panel is set as percentage my guess is the grey showing what the volume would be at 100% while the green showing the volume according to your settings. If you set it to max you should only see green cause they are the same.
Ahhh ... yes! I always have my Windows output level at 100%, so I never noticed. Just lowered it and the grey magically appeared.
Interesting. So, the Gray Scale was there but not showing since the levels were already equal. I guess this is one more instance where, perhaps, the best advice is to listen and not look. Some of the better mixes do seem to have higher Gray Scales, but, I may be falling into the "louder is better" trap.
-------------------------------------------------------
DAW: Cubase Pro 9.5.41; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

Help with Cubase:
Documentation: https://steinberg.help/
Generic Remote setups: viewtopic.php?f=226&t=102993
Location/file paths of presets in Cubase and Nuendo: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... nd-Nuendo-
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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Stephen57 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:21 pm

Scab Pickens wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:12 am
Stephen57 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:43 am
... Am I seeing some kind of extreme limiting in streams? ...
Most likely.
I tried putting limiters and virtually every track of a Project (Rock/Pop) with about 20 "band" tracks (all VSTs in this case), the mix did show higher "gray scales" on playback via Window Media Player, however some of the tracks I see on websites like SoundCloud, etc., still exhibit very high "gray scales" even when the track is just a solo voice.

My Windows Playback has a tick mark on the meter at about the 1/2 way point, Windows claims that is -10.5 dB. It's very annoying because the the windows interface does not accepted a typed-in Value, nor does any short cut set the meter to this mid-point mark.

God forbid MS provide some reference anyone can find about what their -10.5 dB is referenced to or some information about their audio metering system.
-------------------------------------------------------
DAW: Cubase Pro 9.5.41; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

Help with Cubase:
Documentation: https://steinberg.help/
Generic Remote setups: viewtopic.php?f=226&t=102993
Location/file paths of presets in Cubase and Nuendo: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... nd-Nuendo-
Preferences: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... and-Nuendo

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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Scab Pickens » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:51 am

Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:21 pm
Scab Pickens wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:12 am
Stephen57 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:43 am
... Am I seeing some kind of extreme limiting in streams? ...
Most likely.
I tried putting limiters and virtually every track of a Project (Rock/Pop) with about 20 "band" tracks (all VSTs in this case), the mix did show higher "gray scales" on playback via Window Media Player, however some of the tracks I see on websites like SoundCloud, etc., still exhibit very high "gray scales" even when the track is just a solo voice.

My Windows Playback has a tick mark on the meter at about the 1/2 way point, Windows claims that is -10.5 dB. It's very annoying because the the windows interface does not accepted a typed-in Value, nor does any short cut set the meter to this mid-point mark.

God forbid MS provide some reference anyone can find about what their -10.5 dB is referenced to or some information about their audio metering system.
I don't think it's as simple as slapping a limiter on every track. Typically, there are many stages involved to arrive at a "loud" master.

"Mixing is an art ... it takes years to Master."

I don't know where that quote comes from, but I remember reading something along those lines a while back. I think about it from time to time and it reminds me of how far I have to go before I can call myself a master of mixing, let alone a mastering engineer.
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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:39 am

Stephen,

I understand that you both want to understand what you see in Windows, as well as make your music better, but every single fiber in my body tells me to tell you to just ignore this completely.

I think the odds that someone at Microsoft coded those meters in any way that is meaningful to us musicians are very, very low. It may be that there is some correlation between what you see and how you think different types of music sounds, but by far your best bet is to get good, professional metering and use that instead. Either use built-in metering in Nuendo, or get something like iZotope's "Insight". Learn those meters, and use those to analyze music.

I think you'll be wasting time with these....
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Nvidia GTX 660 / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX / Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:41 am

Scab Pickens wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:51 am
Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:21 pm
Scab Pickens wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:12 am


Most likely.
I tried putting limiters and virtually every track of a Project (Rock/Pop) with about 20 "band" tracks (all VSTs in this case), the mix did show higher "gray scales" on playback via Window Media Player, however some of the tracks I see on websites like SoundCloud, etc., still exhibit very high "gray scales" even when the track is just a solo voice.

My Windows Playback has a tick mark on the meter at about the 1/2 way point, Windows claims that is -10.5 dB. It's very annoying because the the windows interface does not accepted a typed-in Value, nor does any short cut set the meter to this mid-point mark.

God forbid MS provide some reference anyone can find about what their -10.5 dB is referenced to or some information about their audio metering system.
I don't think it's as simple as slapping a limiter on every track. Typically, there are many stages involved to arrive at a "loud" master.

"Mixing is an art ... it takes years to Master."

I don't know where that quote comes from, but I remember reading something along those lines a while back. I think about it from time to time and it reminds me of how far I have to go before I can call myself a master of mixing, let alone a mastering engineer.
I'm just looking for a simple answer to a simple question. What are the reference levels MS is using for its meter scales?

I completely respect that learning to mix takes years. The limiter on all tracks was just an experiment, partly successful, partly not, but that is beside the point of the question I have. The question is about the MS Meter in Windows. I've looked and you'd think MS would have a readily available data sheet on this. If one exists, I can't find it. Putting a tick mark on a meter gui and saying -10.4 db doesn't tell us much. Free meters I've d/led and worked with have better documentation than MS audio meter that's on counless million of machines and devices worldwide.

I think I'll try looking at the input with an external test generator, perhaps. I've not done that on this system and it it might help answer the question.
-------------------------------------------------------
DAW: Cubase Pro 9.5.41; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

Help with Cubase:
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Generic Remote setups: viewtopic.php?f=226&t=102993
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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:27 am

MattiasNYC wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:39 am
Stephen,

I understand that you both want to understand what you see in Windows, as well as make your music better, but every single fiber in my body tells me to tell you to just ignore this completely.

I think the odds that someone at Microsoft coded those meters in any way that is meaningful to us musicians are very, very low. It may be that there is some correlation between what you see and how you think different types of music sounds, but by far your best bet is to get good, professional metering and use that instead. Either use built-in metering in Nuendo, or get something like iZotope's "Insight". Learn those meters, and use those to analyze music.

I think you'll be wasting time with these....
+1

Thanks for that. I watched -- posted reference in the lounge -- a talk by Andrew Scheps -- what comes out of the speakers is all that matters. You're saying much the same. Thank you. It really is the truth about this. Ignore it is right thing to do. I think your assessment of the meter is also spot on. I won't get hung up on it.

The meters I'm working with and getting finally more comfortable with are the ones inside Cubase along with some others I have and for use in DAW work. I think I know what we're seeing in the Windows Meter -- very heavy limiting and hyper compression of the source material. Also seeing some very good mixing. But, this Windows Meter really doesn't matter and I'm going to ignore it. Side-effect of this question was getting better at Channel Strip usage. I'll need some other tools as well. Those are there when I'm ready for them. My ears will tell me, in consultation with and my purse of course. :-)

This and these comments by all on this were much better than than the question, ultimately.

Thanks for helping to clear things up. I feel less caught in this "distraction." Lastly, shame on MS for not publishing an easy to find help page on this simple question. No?

Very helpful, all, thanks.
-------------------------------------------------------
DAW: Cubase Pro 9.5.41; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

Help with Cubase:
Documentation: https://steinberg.help/
Generic Remote setups: viewtopic.php?f=226&t=102993
Location/file paths of presets in Cubase and Nuendo: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... nd-Nuendo-
Preferences: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... and-Nuendo

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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:11 am

Yeah, MS isn't the greatest at giving the user easy to find clear answers. If I'd say anything in its defense it'd be that it's such a huge company with so many products that... well.. I don't even know how they'd approach it to be honest. Seems superficially like it'd be an easy thing but... oh well...
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Nvidia GTX 660 / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX / Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: Need help parsing the Windows Meter Scales?

Post by Stephen57 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:57 am

MattiasNYC wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:11 am
Yeah, MS isn't the greatest at giving the user easy to find clear answers. If I'd say anything in its defense it'd be that it's such a huge company with so many products that... well.. I don't even know how they'd approach it to be honest. Seems superficially like it'd be an easy thing but... oh well...
It's an impressive operation. I've seen bits and pieces of it over the years for product launches, VNRs, etc.

Mattias, ihanks for helping me forget about the MS Windows Audio Meter. I have my meters and other tools (Span, etc), they're telling me all I need to know in terms of the audio and what's real. I'm seeing Limiting, Compression, Envelope Shaping, etc. -- good Mixing and good Mastering and don't care at all what that MS meter is doing. It really don't matter. When my mixes do that 'gray scale' "reading," they'll do it anyway and the MS meter still won't matter. That really is the best answer, I think. Thank you, Sir.
-------------------------------------------------------
DAW: Cubase Pro 9.5.41; PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converter, Scarlett 2I4; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST Instruments: Steinberg: HSSE, Retrologue 2, Groove Agent SE, Padshop, Mystic, Prologue, Spector; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3.

Help with Cubase:
Documentation: https://steinberg.help/
Generic Remote setups: viewtopic.php?f=226&t=102993
Location/file paths of presets in Cubase and Nuendo: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... nd-Nuendo-
Preferences: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... and-Nuendo

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