Win 7, 8 End of life

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MattiasNYC
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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:34 pm

I think that is a sensible approach if you're worried.
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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by MrSoundman » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:01 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:59 pm
skijumptoes wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:36 pm
How do you deal with GAS mid-session too if you're not online?! Lol
THE primary concern!!!
I take a Rennie
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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by Rhino » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 pm

Hi Mattias,
MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:37 am
So in other words your complaint is just like all others I've seen where people are complaining about a lack of privacy regarding MS' products, yet nobody seems to be able to point to concrete examples of what I mentioned.
you obviously quoted me without actually reading - so here it is again :
the very nature of catastrophic data leaks is they are not known in advance, and once they get known, it's too late. :shock:
it's all about thinking ahead - acting before the kid falls into the well (as we say in my country).

-----------------
MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:37 am
100 bucks says you probably don't know what data they request from your Win 10 Pro machine if you set telemetry gathering to an absolute minimum, or if that data is anonymized and then sent. After all, there's nothing to be concerned about if the data is anonymous.
... which is just shockingly uninformed, sorry.
may I suggest to do some reading about datamining, fingerprinting, conbining seemingly unrelated sets of data, and all these sneaky methods ?
this is not your grandpa's 1984 anymore. :ugeek:
if you need a real-world preview, just look at China. :cry:
and about MS' or anybody else's promises to anonymize your data and what not - all I'm saying is "I did not have sex with that woman !"
cigar, anybody ? :lol:

-----------------
MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:37 am
Rhino wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:22 pm
Adobe, Farcebook / Cambridge Analytica, Google, to only name three of the bigger (known :!: ) scandals - need I say more ?
proud to say, none of these affected me, as I never was in bed with them ...
I got my Yahoo account hacked into. Don't see many DAW users complaining about Yahoo. Or Apple's products.
that's probably because I wasn't aware Yahoo even exists anymore - thought they went the way of the Dodo around the time their Yahoo Groups crashed - around 199x ? Dunno.
my data and connected mail addy was compromised too, but it was merely some sysex stuff, and even back then I was intelligent enough to use separate throwaway addys for these accounts, so the damage was marginal.
and Apple - lol, I wouldn't touch any of their products if my life depended on it !
In fact, thats what brought me to Cubase in the first place - the obvious, convenient way many of my colleagues chose back then would have been to follow Logic to Apple - I chose the wiser, but harder route and all in all it turned out for the better.
W10 throws out some of the key advantages still present in W7 in an unfixable way, so it is time to re-think.

if anybody can offer some well founded advice about restoring privacy in W10, I'm all ears.
but I'm afraid this is probably a lost cause, in software at least
so this also includes the option of using a dedicated hardware firewall in front of the router, or a standalone Linux gateway to block any MS / W10 requests (not trivial, but maybe worth a look)..

-----------------
MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:37 am
I bet you a fair amount of people that complain about privacy issues are the same people that would complain if their computer got infected due to not having the firewall updated (requires a connection and telemetry data to work) or would complain if software/drivers etc get out of whack and stops working properly (requires a connection and telemetry data to work).
now please, let's stick with the facts !
why on earth would a firewall "require a connection and telemetry data to work" ?
in fact, the exact opposite is true !
you make the rules, and you only grant an exception if it's justified (and proceed with appropriate caution, aware of the risks) - else it would be like hanging your front door key on a nail outside, with a sign "authorized personnel only". :P
same for software/drivers - why would they "get out of whack and stop working properly" without outside parties messing with them, which typically requires an online connection ?

-----------------

you know, we always had intelligent and respectful conversations in the past, and I want this to continue.
but this very topic here goes way deeper than MS marketing blurb, so please allow me to fundamentally disagree here.
I think I brought solid arguments so far, and I'm prepared to go much deeper if required - but I think the general picture is clear.
peace,
Rhino
When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.
(George R.R. Martin)

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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:20 pm

Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 pm
Hi Mattias,
MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:37 am
So in other words your complaint is just like all others I've seen where people are complaining about a lack of privacy regarding MS' products, yet nobody seems to be able to point to concrete examples of what I mentioned.
you obviously quoted me without actually reading - so here it is again :
Dude, I did read your comment. My point is that people criticize MS without any evidence of it (telemetry) having caused serious problems to individuals from a privacy standpoint. I get that you don't think you need concrete examples of it and that's where we differ in opinion. It's not that I didn't read what you wrote.
Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 pm
it's all about thinking ahead - acting before the kid falls into the well (as we say in my country).
Not really. I think it's more like worrying about any other organization taking your data and being careless with it or using it unethically. Could be MS, could be Yahoo, could be any random bank or financial institution. We all give large corporations sensitive data, and in some cases we trust them and in some we don't. All in all I have more trust in MS than financial institutions.
Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 pm
MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:37 am
100 bucks says you probably don't know what data they request from your Win 10 Pro machine if you set telemetry gathering to an absolute minimum, or if that data is anonymized and then sent. After all, there's nothing to be concerned about if the data is anonymous.
... which is just shockingly uninformed, sorry.
may I suggest to do some reading about datamining, fingerprinting, conbining seemingly unrelated sets of data, and all these sneaky methods ?
this is not your grandpa's 1984 anymore. :ugeek:
Well again - let's focus on what we're actually talking about here, ok?...: Microsoft.

So tell me even just a few instances where the telemetry data MS gathered was used by someone doing nefarious "datamining, fingerprinting, conbining seemingly unrelated sets of data" etc. in a way where someone's identity became clear and they were then harmed as a result.

datamining, fingerprinting, conbining seemingly unrelated sets of dataif you need a real-world preview, just look at China. :cry: [/quote]

Microsoft = China?

datamining, fingerprinting, conbining seemingly unrelated sets of dataand about MS' or anybody else's promises to anonymize your data and what not - all I'm saying is "I did not have sex with that woman !"
cigar, anybody ? :lol: [/quote]

Either they do that technically or they do not. If you don't think they do then whatever.

I'll give you one example though that is good - just this weekend my friend lost a bag with his wallet in it. It contained his credit and debit cards. Just a few weeks ago we had discussed my NFC payments using my watch and phone. I made the point that if someone stole my wallet I would have to block the cards in the wallet. If someone on the other hand stole my phone I could disable the NFC payment wallet. Before that was the MS wallet, and now Samsung.

The way these payments work to my knowledge is that a proxy card number is created and it is known by my device and my bank. That is the number that is used. When used nobody gets my actual number, just the proxy. The fact that this is a proxy makes my use anonymous to the vendor and to any device trying to scan the transaction. Sure, they might get the proxy number, but they won't get the real number, and any combining of disparate data will yield zero results.

Making data anonymous works.

I don't know why, but there's this idea floating around that somehow MS is this particularly bad actor that has set us all up to be screwed by collected data. Curiously people weren't complaining about backdoors in Win 7 or 98, or in a million other products that MS and others offer.

I actually honestly think MS made it worse by copping to the collection of data and being relatively up front about it.
Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 pm
if anybody can offer some well founded advice about restoring privacy in W10, I'm all ears.
but I'm afraid this is probably a lost cause, in software at least
so this also includes the option of using a dedicated hardware firewall in front of the router, or a standalone Linux gateway to block any MS / W10 requests (not trivial, but maybe worth a look)..
I think it'd be more interesting to hear well founded factually based actual cases of problems arising from MS' data gathering, rather than what looks more like fear mongering.
Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 pm
MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:37 am
I bet you a fair amount of people that complain about privacy issues are the same people that would complain if their computer got infected due to not having the firewall updated (requires a connection and telemetry data to work) or would complain if software/drivers etc get out of whack and stops working properly (requires a connection and telemetry data to work).
now please, let's stick with the facts !
why on earth would a firewall "require a connection and telemetry data to work" ?
in fact, the exact opposite is true !
you make the rules, and you only grant an exception if it's justified (and proceed with appropriate caution, aware of the risks) - else it would be like hanging your front door key on a nail outside, with a sign "authorized personnel only". :P
same for software/drivers - why would they "get out of whack and stop working properly" without outside parties messing with them, which typically requires an online connection ?
Windows Defender if I understand correctly will act "intelligently" by blocking known bad content. That'll then depend on it knowing what content is bad and thus needs to get updates in order to block said content, which in turn requires a connection. Spectre / Meltdown comes to mind as examples where software updates were pushed out to mitigate a vulnerability.

As for software and drivers getting out of whack I'm referring to them being coded in a way that isn't officially in line with what MS requires. So if coding is out-of-bounds so to speak an OS update can absolutely lead to problems, not because of the OS but because the software / drivers weren't written according to spec. Some copyright software has been named as an example of this. The opposite also applies where a software is updated and suddenly misbehaves on an OS version it "should" be compatible. I've "even" seen this a million times on OSX.

Out of everything we get to worry about when it comes to data in my book MS is one of the lesser worries. Between Facebook and banks and whatnot it's just not a huge deal.
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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by Rhino » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:40 pm

ok, whatever.
guess blind trust is exactly what economy and authorities need - good for you !
personally, I prefer independent thinking and responsible, cautious acting.
both philosophies are fundamentally incompatible ...
everybody makes their own choices and will face their own consequences as result.
ymmnv,
Rhino
When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.
(George R.R. Martin)

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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by skijumptoes » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:53 pm

Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:40 pm
I prefer independent thinking and responsible, cautious acting.
I just don't understand how sticking with an obsolete/unsafe OS is an example of reasoned thought and responsibility?

I prefer to look at things logically and only take hearsay as truth IF there's some fact or substance behind it. And there's nothing that MS is doing that would lead me to the conclusion that i'm in anyway unsafe by using Win 10, in fact they're quite transparent on the fact that they gather data AND document it to a very detailed level on their site:-
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/window ... -data-1703
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/window ... ields-1903

I'm not wanting to argue or question your personal choice, as i fully respect anyone's opinion... But i just can't see the reason or logic to avoid it so vehemently?
You may just be worried 'incase' something comes out in future, based on no facts at current... And there's no shame in that. But you got to be careful not to believe too many of the conspiracies and paranoia that's floated around - as we're all subject to that across the board.

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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by matjones » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:15 am

I've said it before, and now i'll say it again.... gay frogs! :o :o :lol:
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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by skijumptoes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:10 am

matjones wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:15 am
I've said it before, and now i'll say it again.... gay frogs! :o :o :lol:
I just had to google for that... lol amazing.

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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:35 pm

Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:40 pm
ok, whatever.
guess blind trust is exactly what economy and authorities need - good for you !
Needless snark aside I'm pretty sure my trust in MS is about as large as your trust in your bank - yet you still use a bank and not cash only, no? So it's really more a matter of where we draw the line practically.

And non-practically I take it you subscribe to Anarchism as a political philosophy, is that right?
Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:40 pm
personally, I prefer independent thinking
At least superficially there seems to be absolutely nothing "independent" about your thinking about Microsoft versus "privacy" - that's why I brought up that it's the same criticism against it with the same lack of real world examples of people having problems with it.
Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:40 pm
and responsible, cautious acting.
One can use WIndows 10 Pro and minimize the amount of telemetry data as well as carefully monitor both one's financials and Microsoft's actual policies put into practice.

For example; Microsoft fought the US government in courts to retain the right to NOT give access to emails stored on servers outside of the US. To me that inspired greater confidence because MS understood their clients worry about data sharing.
Rhino wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:40 pm
everybody makes their own choices and will face their own consequences as result.
ymmnv,
Rhino
And again - I'd love to see examples of these "consequences" regarding Microsoft versus privacy... alas... nothing yet...
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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by Rhino » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:54 pm

to sum up the dilemma in easy terms, no cloudy strawman arguments :

- once private data has leaked, no matter how and by whom, the cat is out of he bag and there is no way it'll ever get back in or disappear. It will still be out there when you're long gone.
- everybody kills to collect as much private data as they possibly can these days, ever asked yourself why - and why you should tolerate this ?
- even worse, reality* shows data doesn't stay where it got collected, it gets sold, hacked, stolen - it's the gold of our time.
- anonymization is a scam, data collection doesn't work that primitive anymore.
there is no shortage of methods to re-associate and re-combine data, and every little bit added to your profile makes it more valuable, and it makes you more transparent.
- now here's the billion $$$ question :
are you willing to tolerate this, knowing there is no way of rolling back, ever ?

act accordingly, it's your life, and nobody can help you to deal with the consequences.
Rhino


*reality is the stuff that refuses to go away when you stop believing in it. :idea:
When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.
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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by Rhino » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:12 pm

here's a trustworthy site that gives you a quick glimpse behind the scenes, by demonstrating some of the obscure methods that are used to track a simple browser click.
http://browserspy.dk/
bet you were not aware of all that crap !
the scope of OS mined data (or of virus scanners, etc) is infinitely bigger, as these have access to every byte on your system.
think twice about what you allow, and what data you share.
a lot can be avoided, a lot can be faked (rendering it useless), but unfortunately some is inevitable, if you're online at all.
my DAW and the file/backup server are physically offline, and this www machine is - optimized ... :lol:
Rhino.
When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.
(George R.R. Martin)

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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by skijumptoes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:51 pm

Rhino wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:12 pm
my DAW and the file/backup server are physically offline, and this www machine is - optimized ... :lol:
So you shield your DAW and Music from any form of possible spying, yet carry out your everyday tasks on a machine that is happy throwing out your personal info?
Think you've got things the wrong way round mate - unless you've got a crap ton of 'acquired' software sat on that audio pc lol.

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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:20 pm

Rhino wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:54 pm
- anonymization is a scam, data collection doesn't work that primitive anymore.
there is no shortage of methods to re-associate and re-combine data, and every little bit added to your profile makes it more valuable, and it makes you more transparent.
K.

So tell us what data Microsoft collects - specifically - and how it then - again specifically - does not anonymize the data, and how - specifically - someone can access that data and re-combine it and re-associate it to get to my actual identity.

I'll wait.
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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by Rhino » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:39 pm

skijumptoes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:51 pm
So you shield your DAW and Music from any form of possible spying
prevent spying is a secondary, bonus effect.
main objective is to prevent 3rd parties from messing with my clean, streamlined system, and also with my data
skijumptoes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:51 pm
yet carry out your everyday tasks on a machine that is happy throwing out your personal info?
nope.
it's throwing out a minimum of data, typically misleading and false, randomized data.
sensitive operations requiring actual personal data are rare and well shielded.
skijumptoes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:51 pm
you've got a crap ton of 'acquired' software sat on that audio pc
that's your world, kid. :roll:
I own every byte on my machines, my instruments, my car, my house *, and - unthinkable - it's all fully paid for, not a single cent of debt in my life. 8-)
achieve that, and we can talk.
until then, better tone down your attitude a bit. :roll:
not being able to participate with intelligent, on topic arguments does not justify unfounded insults.
Rhino


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When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.
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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by Rhino » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:54 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:20 pm
So tell us what data Microsoft collects - specifically - and how it then - again specifically - does not anonymize the data, and how - specifically - someone can access that data and re-combine it and re-associate it to get to my actual identity.

I'll wait.
instead of waiting, you could also read what I wrote and try to comprehend it.
the concept is to avoid unnecessary data leaking in general, I clearly explained the risks.
MS is only one of many risk factors, admittedly a major one, for reasons I explained above.

if even that is too complex, how about :
MS can't misuse data they do not have, same for any other rat in that race ...

it's actually not that hard, and it makes sense.
Rhino
When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.
(George R.R. Martin)

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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by skijumptoes » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:01 am

Rhino wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:39 pm
I own every byte on my machines, my instruments, my car, my house *, and - unthinkable - it's all fully paid for, not a single cent of debt in my life. 8-)
achieve that, and we can talk.
Well infact, Are you aware software licenses grant you 'usage' to software, not 'ownership'?, so there's a large amount on your machine that you have no ownership of.

I'm done with talking with you on this subject anyway - not that i dislike it or yourself in anyway, i was hoping to get some kind of reasoned response from you that would make sense, but it's not happened, and i hate going round in circles! :)

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Re: Win 7, 8 End of life

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:19 pm

Rhino wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:54 pm
MattiasNYC wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:20 pm
So tell us what data Microsoft collects - specifically - and how it then - again specifically - does not anonymize the data, and how - specifically - someone can access that data and re-combine it and re-associate it to get to my actual identity.

I'll wait.
instead of waiting, you could also read what I wrote and try to comprehend it.
Dude, I understand what you're saying just fine. Apparently you're confusing me disagreeing with me not understanding.
Rhino wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:54 pm
the concept is to avoid unnecessary data leaking in general, I clearly explained the risks.
MS is only one of many risk factors, admittedly a major one, for reasons I explained above.

if even that is too complex, how about :
MS can't misuse data they do not have, same for any other rat in that race ...

it's actually not that hard, and it makes sense.
Rhino
As you imply you can apply that to almost any entity to which you give out information...;

- your bank
- your post office/carrier
- Newegg.com
- the IRS
- ColoradoCyclist.com
- your local dentist
- Microsoft
- T-mobile

etc

You can say to any and all entities that it's better to not give them any data because without data they can't misuse it.

Or, you could do a reasonable evaluation of which entities are likely to actively and purposefully misuse your data, or mismanage it - IF they're even collecting your private personal data to begin with.

And of course, in order to evaluate that reasonably you need data on those entities... Like, you know, what's their history of data management/mismanagement and what data do they actually collect.

Without information on what is actually happening what you say just comes off as paranoia.

-----

Now, I'll let you go on with your dumbphone and disconnected computer(s) and all cash payments with close to zero online footprint in social media etc and we can perhaps just agree to disagree on this, despite you continuing to say that I don't even understand what you're saying. You stay off the grid, I'll stay on it.

PS: I'll reiterate;

For many of us not being connected to the internet is not an option. I just downloaded over 70GB for a project that's due this afternoon and there's zero time for me to shuffle that data back and forth between computers and drives. I can use that time to transfer data, or I can use the time to edit and mix.
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Nvidia GTX 660 / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX / Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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