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Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 am
by esaporski
MattiasNYC wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:27 pm
esaporski wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:53 am
MattiasNYC wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:34 am
But let me also ask the following: Can anyone recap for me what advantage Linux would have for me over Win 10 or OSX?
Because Linux is not spying on you. Telemetry is hard coded on Windows 10 and OSX has it too.
Telemetry isn't "spying". The usage of that word is just silly. I really wish people would stop using it in this cnotext. "Spying" is something that's done covertly. If this really was "spying" then these MS/Apple are the worst spies ever, telling users what they're doing.
Sending unknown and/or encrypted data and sending personally identifying information to known and unknown third parties is something a spyware would do. So I would call it spying.
MattiasNYC wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:27 pm
esaporski wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:53 am
With Linux you have real control over crucial features of the OS.
Microsoft and Apple are constantly trying to close the platform (Windows 10 S is a great example).
I have no idea how this relates to DAW work. Or other work for that matter. Are there examples?
Real-time kernel, memory management, use a desktop environment (DE) that has a low resource usage, specific audio performance tweaks...

And what Apple/M$ are trying to do is to lock you down into their ecosystem so you cannot get apps/software from other sources besides their own store.
I recommend you read this ~> https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/ ... -will-die/
MattiasNYC wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:27 pm
esaporski wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:53 am
Windows and OS X have a lot of bloatware installed and you cannot remove them.
Who cares if the OS contains bloatware as long as it runs as fast as you want it to?
The thing is: it doesn't. Everybody knows Linux (with a full feature DE) can be a lot faster/lower on resource usage than OS X and Windows.
And I want to be able to control my OS. If I want to uninstall something, I want to be able to do that (freedom!).
MattiasNYC wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:27 pm
esaporski wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:53 am
Linux can be a lot lighter and more stable than Windows and OS X.
Really the same objection as the previous one: Does Windows run as stable as I would like it to? I have read pretty much only good reviews regarding the stability of the OS by testers and system builders who us Win 10 + Cubase/Nuendo (7 or below). So I just don't see how this is an issue.

If I was a data center builder, or did backbone stuff for banks or something, then maybe I'd care about this. But that isn't the case, so....
I don't think Windows 10 is really that much better than Windows 7.
https://www.techspot.com/review/1042-wi ... windows-7/

And Linux development moves a hell lot faster than OSX/Win10.

But don't get me wrong, I don't think Windows or OS X are crap. I think they are a lot better for audio than Linux right now.
Linux audio stack is still a mess ~> http://tuxradar.com/content/how-it-work ... -explained

But because development is extremely fast on the open-source world and Linux is free (as in freedom), I think it could be A LOT better than OSX/Win10 in the future.

People are always telling me that "the market isn't there yet" but I think maybe it is. And it's just waiting for the iniciative from the big ones to flourish.

I don't trust M$ and Apple with my OS because they don't care for their customers, they just care about controlling and making profit.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:46 am
by MattiasNYC
esaporski wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 am
Sending unknown and/or encrypted data and sending personally identifying information to known and unknown third parties is something a spyware would do. So I would call it spying.
That's like calling a bank clerk who asks for and uses your checking account number a white collar criminal. Hey, both of them got a hold of your account number, right?

It's just not the same thing. And if you want to argue that MS sends off "personally identifying information to" "third parties" then I would LOVE to see just how and when that happened. Because I'm pretty certain it hasn't.
esaporski wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 am
Real-time kernel, memory management, use a desktop environment (DE) that has a low resource usage, specific audio performance tweaks...
People do "specific audio performance tweaks" on Win 10 as well. I just want to learn something about what this control is in real life, in practice.

In your personal experience; how do you manage memory to benefit a DAW on Linux?
esaporski wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 am
MattiasNYC wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:27 pm
esaporski wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:53 am
Windows and OS X have a lot of bloatware installed and you cannot remove them.
Who cares if the OS contains bloatware as long as it runs as fast as you want it to?
The thing is: it doesn't. Everybody knows Linux (with a full feature DE) can be a lot faster/lower on resource usage than OS X and Windows.
Your problem here is that a lot of the top tier DAWs don't run on Linux, so you can't run DAWbench to figure out just how much faster it is.

But it's absolutely beside the point (and I apologize for not being specific enough): If I assemble a Win 10 PC and I need to run X tracks with Y plugins at latency Z, how do I benefit from a 10% increase? Either my computer runs my DAW and does the job I need it to do, or it doesn't.

So unless you can show how DAWs that we use will actually run better or faster on Linux in a way that benefits me as a user, I just don't see why I would care.
esaporski wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 am
And I want to be able to control my OS. If I want to uninstall something, I want to be able to do that (freedom!).
Ok. I honestly don't care unless the software I'm not using and can't install slows me down. To my knowledge it doesn't.
esaporski wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 am
I don't think Windows 10 is really that much better than Windows 7.
https://www.techspot.com/review/1042-wi ... windows-7/
You're quoting an article over two years old? Does the article discuss the stability of a work-dedicated DAW computer? It probably doesn't.
esaporski wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 am
And Linux development moves a hell lot faster than OSX/Win10.
Why would I want that? How does that development speed benefit me?
esaporski wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 am
I think they are a lot better for audio than Linux right now.
I wish you had said this from the start. I don't understand why you disagree then. Of course Linux COULD become better, but it's been around for quite some time and it still isn't (according to you) after all this time.
esaporski wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 am
I don't trust M$ and Apple with my OS because they don't care for their customers, they just care about controlling and making profit.
I don't think they care about control at all, they care about profit. Control is only interesting if it increases profit. That's it.

Look, I don't have a problem with people digging "free" and "Freedom" and independence and non-profit etc. I think that's cool and even absolutely essential. I hope the movement not only doesn't go away but grows. But for anything I can think of that I would actually need that type of privacy / freedom etc, it's either just more hassle than it's worth or it's for things that I wouldn't do anyway.

Just for comparison: I was one of the several billion people who got their Yahoo accounts hacked.And to me that was a bit... if not ironic at least eye-opening, because while everyone was crapping on Microsoft because telemetry supposedly sent your children to Asian labour camps and violated your buried grandparents it appears the actual threat that materialized and screwed up hundreds of millions of users' privacy. That was a real threat that even materialized.

I hear nothing from the anti-Microsoft crowd about Yahoo. Nothing. Zero. I just find that curious.

PS: MS is still fighting the US government in court to keep user data private and away from the government when stored abroad. Major kudos to MS for taking that fight.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:36 pm
by esaporski
C'mon man, are you joking?
See for yourself ~> https://archive.is/QFL8e

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=windows+10+privacy

So just because YOU don't care for privacy / being able to control your OS / fast-paced development (new features and bug fixes) we shouldn't be able to have it too? I don't think so.

I gave you more evidence than you need to see it would be very beneficial to have Cubase on Linux, but whatever...

PS: Don't worry, I'm not just anti-M$. I don't trust Apple, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, etc with my data either.

PS2: Bitwig is on Linux since it was released. Reaper has a native Linux client now. It appears that FL Studio runs fine on Linux via Wine.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:24 pm
by djw
I hope one day it will make commercial sense to support Linux. So +1 to that future!

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:56 pm
by Raphie
If the avg daw user is already struggling with Windows or MacOS, all hell breaks loose when they try to use Linux, the amount of support topics will explode :)

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:48 pm
by raino
Raphie wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:56 pm
If the avg daw user is already struggling with Windows or MacOS, all hell breaks loose when they try to use Linux, the amount of support topics will explode :)
Probably not. Likely only 50 to 100 people would be using it. A hundred super-nerdy people.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:22 pm
by MattiasNYC
Ok. Let's try to have a rational conversation for just a couple of minutes, sounds good? Look:
esaporski wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:36 pm
C'mon man, are you joking?
See for yourself ~> https://archive.is/QFL8e

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=windows+10+privacy
See for myself what? What is the above supposed to refute? Have you even read that yourself?

You wrote that MS is "sending personally identifying information to known and unknown third parties". I asked for evidence that that's what happened. Can you go through those links and just quote the sections that show exactly that?

Because that would be rational. In a rational discussion if you claim the above and I ask for proof of it, the evidence isn't some link to a long data log which does not show any personal information. And it is not showing general telemetry traffic either.

I mean, do you understand the difference between sending personal data to third parties and simply sending telemetry data to MS to be able to run the services Win 10 uses?
esaporski wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:36 pm
So just because YOU don't care for privacy / being able to control your OS / fast-paced development (new features and bug fixes) we shouldn't be able to have it too? I don't think so.
Again, let's try to be rational: Where did I say I don't care for privacy? I never said that.

And where did I say that you shouldn't have what (you think) I don't care about? Where did I ever suggest that? I asked you for good reason why I would benefit from Cubase/Nuendo on Linux.
esaporski wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:36 pm
I gave you more evidence than you need to see it would be very beneficial to have Cubase on Linux, but whatever...
Clearly I disagree.
esaporski wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:36 pm
PS2: Bitwig is on Linux since it was released. Reaper has a native Linux client now. It appears that FL Studio runs fine on Linux via Wine.
Well, this is about Cubase which is a top-tier DAW, not those other ones. I mean, if I were you I'd just switch over to one of those DAWs instead since Linux appears to be fairly important to you.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:23 pm
by MattiasNYC
raino wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:48 pm
Raphie wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:56 pm
If the avg daw user is already struggling with Windows or MacOS, all hell breaks loose when they try to use Linux, the amount of support topics will explode :)
Probably not. Likely only 50 to 100 people would be using it. A hundred super-nerdy people.
........and vocal........

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:23 am
by djw
It's almost like people who don't already have what they want are going to be more vocal about asking for it?

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:37 am
by MattiasNYC
Sure. When being vocal having a good case for your cause and a good way of 'promoting it' helps.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:31 am
by esaporski
djw wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:23 am
It's almost like people who don't already have what they want are going to be more vocal about asking for it?
Do not feed the troll :mrgreen:

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:11 pm
by raino
esaporski wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:31 am
djw wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:23 am
It's almost like people who don't already have what they want are going to be more vocal about asking for it?
Do not feed the troll :mrgreen:
While I seriously doubt Cubase will ever be on Linux, djw is NOT a troll by any measure.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:12 am
by esaporski
raino wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:11 pm
esaporski wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:31 am
djw wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:23 am
It's almost like people who don't already have what they want are going to be more vocal about asking for it?
Do not feed the troll :mrgreen:
While I seriously doubt Cubase will ever be on Linux, djw is NOT a troll by any measure.
I know, I was telling HIM not to feed the troll. He's definitely NOT a troll.
:mrgreen:

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:14 am
by MrSoundman
I haven't seen any evidence of trolling on this thread, one of the longest on the forum, although it has veered off-topic at times. The thread seems to attract a lot of people who clearly don't want the option to use Cubase on Linux, who then make sweeping statements based on no evidence, usually to the effect that Steinberg won't have resources to produce a Linux version (despite having no way to know this, and the other non-Windows, non-Mac products already available from Steinberg), or broad prejudicial views on the type of person that might use Linux; ironically, many probably written on Linux-based devices on this Linux-powered internet.

Can I therefore respectfully request that we get back on topic, to discuss whether or not a Linux version would be a desirable option and reasons why or why not, and let's just assume for the moment that software development resources would not be an issue for a large multinational such as Yamaha-Steinberg, should the decision be made that there is a market for a Linux option.

Please note also that this is about an option to run Cubase on Linux, not a request to cease any current version, and not about OS-wars. There have been some very good arguments both for and against.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:49 pm
by Raphie
There is no money in Linux. Never has been, never will. Why waste resources?!?

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:55 pm
by MrSoundman
Raphie wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:49 pm
There is no money in Linux. Never has been, never will. Why waste resources?!?
Thanks Raphie for illustrating the very point I was making about people making sweeping statements not based on any evidence. There might be a market for a "hardware" Cubase for example; built into a 19" rack and running on a customised, rock solid Linux, which would eliminate all the variables of OS and hardware drivers, would not incur a Windows license, would not be susceptible to malware, couldn't be pirated, etc. etc. Think positive! ;)

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:23 am
by Raphie
A cubase appliance :) not going to happen, people want open standards, install hacked VSTi's pay no more than €200 for a DAW etc. etc.
Let's not even start about ecosystem support. Top 10 audio hardware vendors do NOTHING to support Linux.
There are some class compliant usb exceptions, but those are hobby cards, not for pro's and these hobbyists are not going to spend 5k€ for a closed ecosystem appliance..... marketing 1:1 there is NO businesscase for Linux on the desktop.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:10 pm
by esaporski
Raphie wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:49 pm
There is no money in Linux. Never has been, never will. Why waste resources?!?
What do you mean by that?

Linux users are willing pay more than average for software/games. And we're not about free software/open-source only.

https://www.geek.com/games/linux-users- ... 3-1408931/

The fun part of this experiment was that the customer could choose how much they paid for the bundle, which could be as little, or as much as people liked.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:07 pm
by Raphie
The stats are clear, though. On average Linux users have paid $11.63 for the bundle where as Windows users paid just $3.80. Mac users fall in the middle and averaged $6.61. Overall, the average is $4.78 per purchase. Are you real?!?

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:38 pm
by MattiasNYC
esaporski wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:10 pm
Raphie wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:49 pm
There is no money in Linux. Never has been, never will. Why waste resources?!?
What do you mean by that?

Linux users are willing pay more than average for software/games. And we're not about free software/open-source only.
I think this goes back to just pure volume of sales. You have to consider that music is a fraction of all of the software sales, and higher end software a fraction of that, and then you have to divide that into Linux users. So once you've done that how much potential profit do you have and how high will the additional development and support costs be?

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:48 pm
by Raphie
For sure more than 2 guys willing to pay 11$..... :)

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 am
by jamatulli
I actually believe that Steinberg recognizes the opportunity and are (or should be) preparing for the inevitable move to Linux. Their release of the VST SDK with a Linux preview early this year is certainly a good sign. Recording computers are very often single purpose machines used by people with some engineering abilities which makes them a much easier target market. The fact that Linux is the most stable and cost effective OS of the big three is the real kicker. There are significant issues that seem to be getting worse when it comes to Apple. Windows on the other hand is, well, let's just say it's "not the best".

Apple has repeatedly made their new machines lack on-board backward hardware compatibility by substituting new interfaces (2 types of Firewire, followed by 3 Thunderbird iterations) and they have "bricked" many a mid to low end interface by changing their ASIO api so that older drivers no longer work. This has forced many Steinberg customers to spend money on unneeded hardware instead of software often going with expensive top shelf interfaces because the manufacturers produce their own end to end drivers. This comes at a cost to Steinberg. While Apple's Mac Pro with OS X is a proven stable platform the cost difference compared to a custom DIY tower is significant to say the least. I own a Mac Pro and while it isn't top shelf having "only" a 6 Core Xeon E5 3.5GHz with 1TB SSD, 128MG RAM, it still cost me over $5000.

Windows remains focused on lower cost with higher flexibility for personal and business software. Realistically it has and always will lack the key requirement for audio recording: stability under heavy stress with high throughput hardware. Although this doesn't effect average users, Steinberg market isn't really focused on average users but rather on niche power users who tend to increase demands to the point of failure. The main difference between Windows and OS X is that of catastrophic failure vs controlled failure. The worst thing that can happen is a crash with its consequential lost or corrupted data and Windows is simply more prone in this regard.

As a professional software engineer and long time digital audio engineer (20 years) who works with all three systems on a daily basis there is no doubt which one is the superior between OS X and Windows and it's OS X hands down. However, I believe Ubuntu 16.04 is truly ready to compete and has the benefits of both without the flaws of either. I have been running it on a Lenovo P50 Laptop (128GB RAM, 1TB SSD, i7-5500U with 4MB Cache/ 3GH) for almost two years. I run it hard and fast and it is more stable than the Mac Pro, which is very stable.

Ubuntu is clearly leading the way in usability with Debian cutting the path forward. I find it far more user friendly than Windows and far more flexible than OS X. Ubuntu is in my opinion ready for the first serious professional audio recording software to make the move. From a business perspective this first mover advantage should not be underestimated, especially at the higher end of the market where the Apple appears to be having significant problems with hardware limitations (e.g. pathetic 2017 MacBook Pro max of 16GB RAM).

Although hardware compatibility with Ubuntu is limited there are quite a few Firewire devices that already work. The drivers come purely from the community and some companies like UAD with their Unison technology would need to also port their software to take full advantage. That is a chicken and egg problem that will only be solved by adoption which requires a major DAW to port first.

Bottom line, in the questions of cost and performance Linux is the hands down winner and is primed to take over the market for high performance audio recording. Whichever amongst the top DAW providers capture this market may very well be the most significant player in the field in a few years. My preference is to see Steinberg there.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:23 am
by MattiasNYC
jamatulli wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 am
I actually believe that Steinberg recognizes the opportunity and are (or should be) preparing for the inevitable move to Linux.
I can't find the classifieds.... but I'm selling this for $2,400:

Image
jamatulli wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 am
Recording computers are very often single purpose machines used by people with some engineering abilities which makes them a much easier target market. The fact that Linux is the most stable and cost effective OS of the big three is the real kicker. There are significant issues that seem to be getting worse when it comes to Apple. Windows on the other hand is, well, let's just say it's "not the best".
Well, if a computer is single-purpose, then it's really no big deal setting up a Windows system drive that's entirely stable. I can't remember the last time I had a crash while working, or at all actually (Win 7). This whole talk about stability is often a bit overblown I find.

Now, looking at Steinberg specifically, since some time has passed and Nuendo v8 came out, I actually am firmly against a Linux version. Steinberg can't put out a clean, almost fully functional release on their flagship application, so to dilute their resources by adding another OS is just lunacy in my book.

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:18 am
by esaporski
jamatulli wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 am
I actually believe that Steinberg recognizes the opportunity and are (or should be) preparing for the inevitable move to Linux. Their release of the VST SDK with a Linux preview early this year is certainly a good sign.
I really hope so :D
jamatulli wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 am
Ubuntu is clearly leading the way in usability with Debian cutting the path forward. I find it far more user friendly than Windows and far more flexible than OS X. Ubuntu is in my opinion ready for the first serious professional audio recording software to make the move. From a business perspective this first mover advantage should not be underestimated, especially at the higher end of the market where the Apple appears to be having significant problems with hardware limitations (e.g. pathetic 2017 MacBook Pro max of 16GB RAM).

Although hardware compatibility with Ubuntu is limited there are quite a few Firewire devices that already work. The drivers come purely from the community and some companies like UAD with their Unison technology would need to also port their software to take full advantage. That is a chicken and egg problem that will only be solved by adoption which requires a major DAW to port first.

Bottom line, in the questions of cost and performance Linux is the hands down winner and is primed to take over the market for high performance audio recording. Whichever amongst the top DAW providers capture this market may very well be the most significant player in the field in a few years. My preference is to see Steinberg there.
Well said! I couldn't have put it better myself.

Linux distros are very mature nowadays. The 'chicken or the egg' problem is the main reason people are not migrating/porting software to Linux.
I hope the VST SDK was just the beginning :)

Btw, 2017 survey from StackOverflow (https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017) was a surprise for me. Most developers are using Linux already :D

Image

Re: Cubase for Linux

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:31 am
by MattiasNYC
33% isn't most though... or am I missing something....?