Cubase for Linux

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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by Patanjali » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:48 am

robw wrote:Oh yeah! I could run it on my HPC system then - 50000 cores, every 12 cores with a Terabyte of SSDs and minimum 64 Gigs of RAM, 10 Petabyte parallel file system.
If you could afford one of those systems, you could afford to pay other people to record you, and let them be the ones who have OS angst!
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by Patanjali » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:54 am

MrSoundman wrote:... confronted Steinberg when they decided to support iOS and Android.
The full Cubase is not a couple of apps running on underpowered hardware. Putting it on Linux, as it would be expected to be a full version, is a whole other level of development to its current effort for those OSs. Perspective required here.
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by Patanjali » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:00 pm

I bet SB has already sounded out this issue many times over the years, and it probably always came down to expected ROI being too low.

I suspect that OSX, given its current numbers, would not provide the required ROI for a DAW maker if it did not already have its substantial history in the field. That is, if OSX was a DAW green field, would it have the market numbers to be a development target?

This is nothing to do with the capabilities of OSX, just a plain business decision about market share and ROI.
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by swamptone » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:07 pm

Patanjali wrote:I bet SB has already sounded out this issue many times over the years, and it probably always came down to expected ROI being too low.

I suspect that OSX, given its current numbers, would not provide the required ROI for a DAW maker if it did not already have its substantial history in the field. That is, if OSX was a DAW green field, would it have the market numbers to be a development target?

This is nothing to do with the capabilities of OSX, just a plain business decision about market share and ROI.

Exactly right!

I expect Logic to be discontinued any day now. ;)
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by raino » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:14 am

While anything is possible, I think it is highly unlikely that Cubase will end up on Linux because it is difficult to make a good business case for it.

If Steinberg were considering porting to Linux there are 2 key questions that need to be answered.
1. How much would adding a market segment for Linux increase development and support costs.
2. How much additional revenue would having Cubase on Linux generate.
To be viable the answer to 2 has to be greater than the answer to 1 plus a reasonable profit margin.

Looking at costs, the actual code development costs likely wouldn't increase too much as that's probably done on an OS independent platform. However the cost to validate the code likely goes up much more because instead of having a list of things that need to be checked/verified that has to be gone through twice it would need to be gone through three times. Also as we know from experience some problems only occur on a Mac or PC but not the other. You'd have to expect that Linux only problems would crop up which would increase support costs somewhat. Additionally there is a hidden cost related to development & validation. These would increase the development workload which would lengthen the the product development cycle. Right now Steinberg gets $150 or so about every 2 years from many (most?) of us for upgrades. If, for example, the development cycle increases to 2.5 years that results in a 25% reduction in their revenue stream.

Even without access to Steinberg's actual numbers, it makes sense that their costs would increase by a non-trivial amount. But of course if they make a ton more money then those costs would be a wise investment.

Looking at increased revenue, it is dependent on how much the customer base expands due to offering Cubase on Linux. Now a bunch of folks on this thread have very enthusiastically stated how much they'd love to run Cubase on Linux. Guess what, you probably don't count on the revenue side of the equation. Since you are on the forum, presumably you already are using Cubase. If you switch from using Cubase on a PC to using it on a Linux box you aren't expanding the customer base. Rather you are shifting from one market segment to another (which is revenue neutral assuming the produce is priced the same on all platforms) . The only customers who'd really increase revenue are those folks who A) would buy Cubase on Linux but not buy it on a PC or Mac or B) buy a license to run on Linux in addition to having a license on a PC or Mac. That's the entire pool of potential extra revenue and I'd bet it is pretty small. Note that this is different than what percentage of the installed OS market is on Linux.

Finally that potential pool of new customers is further reduced because all DAWs need a technical ecosystem in order to thrive. Audio interfaces, controller interfaces, third-party audio plug-ins and VSTi's, dongles/security etc. are necessary tools that we all require. So now you've gotta find that guy who will only use Cubase on Linux and doesn't care that Waves, RME, NI, UAD and all the rest are not available. Sure you can hope to convince Waves et. al. to support Linux but that's unlikely. First all those companies would need to confront the increased-costs vs. additional revenue issues themselves. Second there is a chicken-and-the-egg problem - who is going to develop Linux plugs if there isn't a platform to run them on; and who is going to develop that platform if there aren't any good plugs for use on that platform. Heck, Steinberg can't even convince developers to support note-expression which is much less of an "ask."

While Cubase on Linux might be technically and aesthetically attractive, it's hard to see how it is economically viable.
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by MrSoundman » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:48 am

All very interesting points, but we have to start thinking outside the box a little bit .... one option Linux offers which is not available with proprietary operating systems is that of providing the complete software infrastructure, OS and applications, as a customized distribution, with all the usual realtime audio optimizations.

Steinberg could test only Steinberg interfaces and only on the Steinberg Linux distribution and support only those; that would still offer a Linux version of the application to those who wished to run it on Debian, Ubuntu or Red Hat, but in the knowledge that they can only avail of official support if the problem is reproducible on either of the existing, supported proprietary operating systems.

The advantage I would see for Steinberg is the possibility of offering complete turnkey solutions to studios where they have control over every aspect of hardware and software; through Yamaha and Line 6 there is already a very capable hardware division. As a pleasant side effect, Linux die-hards get to run Cubase ..... and Steinberg interfaces (although the open-source community already has the latter covered).
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by CubeDAW » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:13 pm

I don't want to be stuck with having everything made by Steinberg. That sounds like a bad idea, also a huge expense plus they don't make the best hardware.

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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by MrSoundman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:01 am

All I'm suggesting is that there would be an option to run Cubase on Linux ...even if you're adamantly against the idea, nobody is suggesting that the Windows and Mac versions would cease, so you would just carry on as you do now.
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by CubeDAW » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:29 pm

It would slow down advances in Cubase because it would divert engineers. They would only be working for a tiny minority of users. That is why I am adamantly opposed to it. It would not be a small thing for them to do when you consider all the bugs that would arise.

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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by MrSoundman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:52 pm

Let's say cars only come in black and white. Most people have black cars, many have white cars. Now a few people want red cars, and suddenly the black and white car owners are on the barricades because they believe, without any evidence whatsoever but based on pure assumption, that if car manufacturers start making red cars, this will negatively affect the production of black and white cars. :roll:
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by Mr. Beer » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:57 pm

That's a horrible analogy. That would assume that all cars use exactly the same parts, and the only difference is paint. As we all know, under the hood of the GUI are completely different engines that work in completely different ways.
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by MrSoundman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:12 pm

My point is that nobody is asking anyone to use anything they don't want to, and there's no evidence whatsoever that compiling the application for one more OS will be to anyone's detriment -- it's presumptive and emotional, and if the argument were valid, then people should equally be calling for the abandonment of Cubasis, Cubase IC, Nanologue, Loopmash HD, dspMixFx and all Steinberg hardware. Hell, why not discontinue Cubase for Mac, so that Cubase for Windows will get so much better?
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Cubase for Linux

Post by Raphie » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:54 pm

No one is interested in Linux, there is no money in linux, there is no support and it lacks backing by manufacturers. Linux is fine for geeky system engineers who like bashing m$ and manage their free firewall and run Oracle. But it's not a platform for spoiled producers who want everything plug and play and want 3rd pty support for all their goodies. Forget it, it will NEVER happen.... Waste of time, resources and budget...
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by MrSoundman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:09 pm

Raphie wrote:Now supporting VST Connect Pro!
.... which runs on iOS, which is based on an open-source Unix system. Perhaps Steinberg should abandon VST Connect as well, in case it uses up all the engineers that should be working on Windows and OSX? :lol:
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by Patanjali » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:23 am

MrSoundman wrote:
Raphie wrote:Now supporting VST Connect Pro!
.... which runs on iOS.
ER, ... NO! It runs on OSX or Windows. Perhaps you were thinking of iC Pro or Cubasis?

However, your continued references to iOS and Android as examples of popular versions of Unix/Linux actually supports the opposite thesis to you.

iOS devices are NOT suitable for a full version of Cubase, as they are totally underpowered for it, BUT, they are VERY popular, as is Android, so have become a target for apps that support certain limited-function or support uses for music generation. Their POPULARITY is what makes them likely to give a satisfactory ROI (Return On Investment), NOT their OS heritage.

Desktop/laptop Linux, out of all the Linux/Unix uses, is the only viable target for a FULL version of Cubase, and its user base is under 2%, and highly fragmented (distribution-wise), which makes it an unlikely investment target for a major commercial DAW maker, as its ROI is likely to be low for several years.

Compared to investing in further developing their versions for the two OSs that have a rich DAW ecosystem, SB investing in an underused OS with practically no DAW ecosystem is unlikely.

However, all it takes is some ideologically-bent person in charge to make a Linux call, which has a precedent in Apple throwing all its Windows Logic users under the bus (as an example of ideological bloody-mindedness), but at least there, they already started with a large OSX user base.
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by mroekalea » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:11 am

Hell, why not discontinue Cubase for Mac, so that Cubase for Windows will get so much better?
Now it's getting my attention........kidding :-) :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

Porting software is a very heavy task, it's like it should work but ont htis distribution it doesn't why...and then your a few months further down the line and the next issue can be picked up, anybody worked in the software industry :idea: ?
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by Patanjali » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:36 am

mroekalea wrote:... anybody worked in the software industry?
That's why I know just the per release regression testing across all the multiple versions of the distribs would make them want to :cry: :cry: :cry: , let alone the production costs of the initial conversion.

Does anyone know what cross-platform dev tools SB is using now, and whether they can target Linux?

Of course, Cubase is more than just a DAW engine, as it includes VSt(i)s and utility programs, which would all have to be done in parallel. Get out the tissues now :cry: :cry: :cry: .

I bet that re this issue, head and sand co-location would appear very attractive to SB right now. :lol:
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by MrSoundman » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:57 am

Patanjali wrote:Does anyone know what cross-platform dev tools SB is using now, and whether they can target Linux?
Yes, Qt, that's how they can already offer Cubase across platforms, and that's how the re-write of WaveLab managed to become cross-platform.
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by Patanjali » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:28 am

MrSoundman wrote:
Patanjali wrote:Does anyone know what cross-platform dev tools SB is using now, and whether they can target Linux?
Yes, Qt.
That basically takes care of the dev nuts and bolts.

However, there is still:
1. Determine whether the projected market is worth the ongoing extra regression test suite(s) and support staff.
2. If OK, determine whether Cubase is feasible to target at Linux, which has many levels, and not just control compatibilities.
3. If OK, allocate resources to pilot and test a module or so in a test harness to determine effort and issue projections for a full implementation.
4. If OK, hire extra dev, test and support staff.

As I wrote, SB has probably canvassed this internally and amongst key users several times and the lack of a Linux version is a current answer to your question.

I would say that you would really need to do your homework and build a case, and a goodly number of co-conspirators, to petition SB with some concrete arguments, and not just vague sentiments on a thread that has hardly set the forum on fire with pent up OS-deficiency frustration. Remember, even 'thinking' time will cost SB lots of money, so the more that you can provide for zero cost, the more your wants may progress towards deeper consideration by them.

Given the low target user-base numbers (for the general platform), fairly lacklustre (number wise) enthusiasm from users, and that current users will be zero ROI, I don't hold much hope.
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by JClosed » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:22 am

Hmm.. well... I would like to see Cubase running on Linux, and I think it's fully possible. How much work they have to do to make an cross-compiled version (Linux, Mac and Windows capable) is another matter. I am afraid it wont be that easy. That said - They could probably use an chunk of the code for the Mac (that would be an BSD to Linux "translation").

For now there are already some DAW's that run on Linux (Ardour jumps to mind, and Bitwig is one of the latest and hottest), and development of the "wine-VST-bridge" called Airwave is progressing nicely..

It would be nice to see Cubase on Linux, but I do not think that would be in the short therm... if at all..

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Cubase for Linux

Post by Raphie » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:56 am

Guess the real question is, when push comes to shove and it's available, would you pay €600 for a Linux version? Most Linus user already moan over free stuff, let alone stuff they need to pay for
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by mroekalea » Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:24 pm

Guess the real question is, when push comes to shove and it's available, would you pay €600 for a Linux version? Most Linus user already moan over free stuff, let alone stuff they need to pay for
:lol: Priceless :lol:
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by MrSoundman » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:09 pm

Raphie wrote:would you pay €600 for a Linux version?
No, but I wouldn't have to; I have a license that entitles me to run Cubase on all platforms for which the product is available.
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by MrSoundman » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:10 pm

Raphie wrote:Most Linus user already moan over free stuff, let alone stuff they need to pay for
Where would we be without sweeping generalizations? :D
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Re: Cubase for Linux

Post by Raphie » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:15 pm

Imagine Linux with an eLicenser, all hell breaks loose
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