An open plea to Steinberg

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Rudi007
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Rudi007 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:36 pm

+1
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by onemidi » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:51 pm

Great Post... +1

All the features in the world means nothing if the program is full of bugs and we can't use the features fully anyway.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by greggybud » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:57 pm

Noiseboyuk, your letter has been written so many times in the past. I should accuse you of plagiarism since I wrote this...back when Cubase SX was released. :lol:

This cycle is nothing new at all. However since Cubase 6.5 I think the cycle has become increasingly vicious because as more users become experienced over time, the Cubase faults shine brighter. But to offset this, new users think everything is almost perfect. Some of them morph into fanboys, then wars start, then most silently slip away or re-invent themselves under a new name, and come back with a bit more experience. The cycle is endless.

Follow the money. It's not coming from pro users. It's coming from kids who want that "make me a hit" preset. And they want it now...screw the manual or even video tutorials.

Keep things in perspective. I would guess active participants here represent maybe 1% of total users.

But at the end of the day what are you going to do? For myself I simply lower my expectations of Steinberg. I haven't found any alternatives because Cubase is still the best for what I do.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by noiseboyuk » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:07 pm

Just to be clear - I think Cubase is a great program. Personally I'm not looking elsewhere - I'm welded to Cubase for better or worse until any other competitor offers midi CC control over EuCon, which none do (and this has been the case for many years). Cubase does some stuff better than any other DAW on the market, and I want to see it improve rather than look elsewhere.

Here's hoping that, if nothing else, this gets a dialogue going. Getting some of the software folks to visit here once in a while could be transformative. And don't laugh ye cynics - Microsoft engaged actively on Gearslutz for many months ahead of W10, personally replying to queries, taking suggestions and so on. It was remarkably civil, forum conversation doesn't have to be a bear pit.

Reading through the replies, I have an uncomfortable feeling that Steinberg might deduce that Subscription is the answer. Actually, maybe it would help, but only if done absolutely right. Sonar customers seem very happy with their subscription model, crucially you can opt in and out any time without penalty, and you keep a permanent license. At the other end of the scale we have Avid, a company who relocated to Mordor a number of years ago and who seem hellbent on discovering new and innovative ways to wave goodbye to loyal customers at great personal cost.

I really don't know if subs would honestly help this issue. If done right, a la Sonar, I'd be happy. I somehow doubt its absolutely necessary though. What I think is essential is that some serious head scratching goes on at Steinberg. As someone who absolutely wants to see them succeed and remain top of the tree - indeed I'd love to see them really start to encroach on Pro Tools' territory - there needs to be a better plan of how to get there.

Greggybud - you had me until "follow the money" which lands at kids with presets. They have no money, or what they do have they won't spend on legal software. Cubase is now called Pro 8, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that this is a serious tool designed for (and used by) professionals. Also, back in SX days, the competition was hardly the same as now - the marketplace has changed completely. Just because something was true then, doesn't mean it is false now, and it might be time to reassess strategy.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by AlakaLazlo » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:44 pm

+1000 I'm voting no with my wallet this time. We still don't have a working W10 driver for MR816s, which was Steinberg's "flagship" interface. It's been 6+ months and still all I get is "we'll get back to you." Until a majority of the users decide they won't tolerate it anymore, and stop purchasing the shiny new updates (that don't address the existing problems and add new unnecessary features that just create more bugs for Steinberg to fix) it won't change.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by lassitani » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:37 pm

+1

Overall the update is good, but again as said, not fixing bugs. Fixing bugs should be number 1 priority for every software developer. Why doesn't Steinberg see that? It would make Cubase better and provide a stable future.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by InLightTone » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:52 pm

+1

Well written Guy!

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Steve Helstrip » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:10 pm

Gets my vote. But it won't happen
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by raino » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:32 pm

+100,000,000,000²

They should have 9.0 come out 18 months from now with whatever Shiny New Stuff (SNS) they want to include. But 12 months from now they should put out 8.8 with only bug & workflow in it. With all/most of the bugs gone I'd bet the time to develop the SNS would shrink dramatically.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Jeff Price » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:35 pm

+1

Making people pay for a few bug fixes and a pile of unwanted features (cloud) is just wrong. Fix the previous version before you release a new version. That's just good business practices and will make people stay with you.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by aptmusic9 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:40 pm

+1,000,000,000
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by B.Well » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:06 am

I appreciate you taking the time to write this noiseboy, I hope things change but Steiny have been set in their ways for years :roll:

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by studio14 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:24 am

I Thank Steinberg to have such updates or should I say semi frequent updates year after year. I think you are going in the right direction cause I can see the next version to be great. I do feel 8.5 is fantastic, Maybe not as good as your previous updates, but still good overall. I do consider some of the responses to be beneficial especially those which ask for our feedback. Best of luck toward your quest for Cubase 9.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by themarqueeyears » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:29 am

An open plea to Steinberg for what?

It's a business to make money, it's not a high school science project!

They fix as much as they can afford to fix, but when you are asking people for money you have to add value - that's how business works.

Steinberg don't sit in meetings saying "ha ha let's leave the bugs coz we love annoying our user base especially people on the forum" They have to make choices about how they spend their time - otherwise all we'd be using is an utterly perfect version of Cubase SX!
.... but we wouldn't would we because Steiberg would of gone bust years ago pursuing that goal.

That's the world of software development.

No doubt they use something like "The Scrum Framework" - they have deadlines to meet, as much get's fixed as possible and the software has to be developed to satisfy the owners.

Considering the complexity of a modern DAW - I completely amazed at how much does work without issue.

I'm their typical user and customer, to get my wallet open they need to do exactly what they are doing - fixing the obvious things and giving me new features to get excited about.

Life is always a compromise and your DAW is no exception.

I have never tried or used a DAW by another developer that is any different - they all suffer from various issues.
(That's unless the developers employ a team of 150 programmers just to de-bug the program and you're willing to pay £10,000 for it - not realistic is it)

Personally I love working in Cubase - warts and all.
Last edited by themarqueeyears on Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by silhouette » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:38 am

I've just caught the news.

It's kind of depressing that I now I think let's wait for a while. I haven't upgraded to Windows 10 - I certainly won't immediately upgrade to 8.5. I expect issues and no longer know why upgrading is necessary, at least until everyone else has had the issues and I know what I am getting into.
I have just come to terms with 8.0.30. I am actually doing quite a lot of writing and going through a creative patch. Would I jeopardise that for a new set of issues? I just want everything to work as it should. I would pay for that alone.

It's only £36. Er..... I am either a complete idiot or addicted to the new! I have resisted for fully half an hour. Perhaps I should join the 16 steps program (Sequencers Anonymous). Luckily I have lost the wifi dongle for my music machine. Oh God where is it?
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by woodsdemis » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:51 am

+1
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by greggybud » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:11 am

themarqueeyears wrote:
They fix as much as they can afford to fix, but when you are asking people for money you have to add value - that's how business works.
I think the issue is how the money is spent.

Ask yourself, do you spend $xxx to add cloud? Do you spend $xxx and add a VST?

Or do you spend that amount to fix a bug? Or maybe spend that amount to develop a common feature request such as mix undo?

For myself, adding value is fixing the broken functions, fixing bugs, improving workflow (which 8.5 is doing) and releasing new features that are core to Cubase such as mix undo. I can do without features often found with 3rd parties, or the new Wizz-Bang-Ooh-Baby" feature that appeals to newbies, including DAW experimenters. Professionals have deadlines and time is money.

I don't need any "new features" to get excited about. Cubase is the most feature-rich DAW available, and a lot of those features needs improving. Fixing what is available would excite me. Streamlining and making it faster excites me.

But, as said many times before, this industry is dominated by prosumers who love new Wizz-Bangs. It seems no one including PT can break out of that cycle and take the DAW a step higher ignoring prosumers and focusing on core functions. Hopefully someday that will change!
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by ptsmith » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:30 am

+1

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by themarqueeyears » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:39 am

Your don't want new features to get excited about, fair enough.

But I do.

I make my living from music it's my full time job, Steinberg are constantly adding features that make my working day easier, more fun and yes more exciting from a creative point of view.

Some of the new features in 8.5 will really enhance my working day and my creativity.

As I said Steinberg have financial deadlines to meet like any businesses and that requires compromises and from my perspective I think they have the balance right.

Yes in the perfect world every bug would be resolved but the professional side of the industry is rapidly shrinking and therefore developers including Tools are having to adapt to that reality.

Given the fact Cubase has grown it's user base by so much in recent years and is the most migrated to DAW I'm obviously not alone :)

It's a great upgrade for the price of a takeaway pizza and a couple of pints!
Last edited by themarqueeyears on Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:53 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by MoPro » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:46 am

AlakaLazlo wrote:+1000 I'm voting no with my wallet this time.
Same here... enough said! ;)
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by BobUpstairs » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:55 am

westwoodi wrote:+1

I have chosen not to upgrade to 8.5 as a matter of protest since I believe there are just too many bugs that still need fixing from 8.0.
I saw the email announcing 8.5 and thought that it was fixes for all who have been asking... then I saw it was $49. Paying for fixes? Oh, the fixes aren't addressed? Will they be?

Hmmm...
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by BobUpstairs » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:57 am

themarqueeyears wrote:An open plea to Steinberg for what?

They fix as much as they can afford to fix
Glad I didn't buy a space shuttle.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Makumbaria » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:10 am

BobUpstairs wrote:
westwoodi wrote:+1

I have chosen not to upgrade to 8.5 as a matter of protest since I believe there are just too many bugs that still need fixing from 8.0.
I saw the email announcing 8.5 and thought that it was fixes for all who have been asking... then I saw it was $49. Paying for fixes? Oh, the fixes aren't addressed? Will they be?

Hmmm...
Since Cubase 6.5 every .5 upgrade is paid. As far I can remember, Steinberg always releases at least one final update for the previous version. But every bug will be fixed? Certainly not!
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by smartinuf » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:17 am

+1
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by suntower » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:49 am

LOL.

Yes, if I had a time machine and managed SB I'd want back all the hours wasted on 'collaboration' tools since way back with VSTLink and all these other blue sky 'initiatives'. Probably more than enough to fix my main grouses many times over.

But... unfortunately you are incorrect. New users DO purchase a DAW based on the feature list. So, yeah, a new Synth is a serious DAW ATM. New users do -not- purchase based on the very user workflow stuff that you and I value. It takes a couple of -years- to learn what -really- matters.
Winter Rat wrote:... I just see thousands of "composers" driving here and there across Australia looking for inspiration and longing for collaboration with someone they've never met before to give them blalbla and get from them blablalba... what next? connection to astronauts???? If you guys have to search for inspiration then stop doing music just drop it, go and do something else in your life, because there are a lot of people who can write music every minute non-stop and to be able to do it they need decent reliable software without workarounds (for years).
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