An open plea to Steinberg

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Brian Roland » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:18 pm

I suggest that users be required to READ THE MANUAL and pass a basic test before being allowed to participate in the poll(s) recommended in this thread.

It'd also be nice if the hecklers who are obviously paid trolls for competing products were somehow weeded out. It's obvious at times that a lot of the noise is by people who have no intention of ever actually learning and using Cubase, let alone offering anything useful and constructive to things like bug fix and development jiras and wikis.

Every day I see dozens of 'feature requests' for things that Cubase has been doing just fine by multiple methods and workflow possibilities since nineteen-ninety-weird. At times it's as ridiculous as claiming my Trombone is a 'waste of money' because it doesn't play a supersonic C-32 all by itself....and oh good lord, Edward should give me a yellow brass bell for free now that I'm doing more jazz, even though I ordered the rose bell at a time I was doing more classical! Nothing wrong with the rose bell, but Edward somehow screwed me and owes me the Yellow bell too!

You can show them step by step exactly how to do it, and even give them scripts and macros that'll do it FOR THEM with a 'single click or key-combo', and even go so far as to give them a map so that punching ONE BUTTON on their MIDI keyboard will do it....and they just stick their fingers in their ears, spout off examples of how a dozen 'other products' does it (usually takes just as many steps or requires just as much time/brain power), and fuss for many hours on forums instead of giving it a try and getting back to making music.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:08 pm

peakae wrote:
hesca116 wrote:]

Wow thats SUPER great to know! Maybe a poll feature should be included in the steinberg hub, that way more users will get involved in this kind of feedback efforts.

Thanks Guillermo!
That is an good idea, make it an yearly poll and get some real data to work with.
Great idea indeed!

This is a great example of how Steinberg has no excuse for not interacting with their customers, unless they simply don't give a [Watch your language] Even the users come up with ways to make future development more interactive. That speaks volumes. And, if it is the case that they don't care, then that's not the type of company I personally want to support. Ironically, the Dorico team is all about welcoming the involvement of potential customers with the development team. Yes, I get that they are selling a brand new notation software. But this kind of interaction with customers shouldn't be abandoned just because now you have a steady following.

And Yes, I too appreciate Guillermo's involvement in this thread. But, as a whole, Steinberg has been very silent and unresponsive to ACTUAL questions regarding bug fixing and the direction of the company. Look at Line 6, a publicly traded company with restrictions in what they can say about future development, and yet they interact WAY more with their customers (even in forums other than their own, AND they make use of IdeaScale--where anyone can submit a feature request and others vote for them--to gauge future development) than any other company I know of in the music industry. Every MI company should follow their example. Companies don't make money without customers, last I checked.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by raino » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:28 pm

jose7822 wrote:Look at Line 6, a publicly traded company with restrictions in what they can say about future development, and yet they interact WAY more with their customers (even in forums other than their own, AND they make use of IdeaScale--where anyone can submit a feature request and others vote for them--to gauge future development) than any other company I know of in the music industry. Every MI company should follow their example. Companies don't make money without customers, last I checked.
Actually Line 6 and Steinberg are both owned by Yamaha.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:52 am

raino wrote:
jose7822 wrote:Look at Line 6, a publicly traded company with restrictions in what they can say about future development, and yet they interact WAY more with their customers (even in forums other than their own, AND they make use of IdeaScale--where anyone can submit a feature request and others vote for them--to gauge future development) than any other company I know of in the music industry. Every MI company should follow their example. Companies don't make money without customers, last I checked.
Actually Line 6 and Steinberg are both owned by Yamaha.
Which is EXACTLY why I bring them up here. Both Line 6 and the Dorico team are more responsive to user needs than the Steinberg team. It is ironic that all of them are part of the Yamaha Corporation. That said, Line 6 has stated many times that Yamaha doesn't interfere with them as much as you'd think. They are pretty much as autonomous as they were before Yamaha acquired Line 6 (which is actually pretty cool of Yamaha--they just let Line 6 do what they do best). Steinberg, on the other hand.... :?
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by karlito » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:16 pm

Yes! We finally made it to the Steinberg Lounge!
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by noiseboyuk » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:58 am

karlito wrote:Yes! We finally made it to the Steinberg Lounge!
Users - "Sternberg, don't you think you should be interacting with users more in the forum and not just relying on Guillermo's goodwill in his spare time?"

Sternberg - silently moves thread to The Lounge
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by -steve- » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:10 am

noiseboyuk wrote:Sternberg - silently moves thread to The Lounge
I'm pretty sure there was a whooshing sound.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:20 am

Great job Steinberg!!!

Image

Cubase 9 must be REALLY something for this level of co**iness to be tolerable. Geez... :shock:
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Guillermo » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:43 am

Hello all,
noiseboyuk wrote:
karlito wrote:Yes! We finally made it to the Steinberg Lounge!
Users - "Sternberg, don't you think you should be interacting with users more in the forum and not just relying on Guillermo's goodwill in his spare time?"

Sternberg - silently moves thread to The Lounge
Not me! By free time I mean: if they E.g. If a rep has finished all his support tickets or support emails, which is almost never the case, or a programer wants to take a small brake from coding, basically that is how it works. The Line 6 idea forum is a good idea and as they are also a Yamaha subsidiary I am pretty sure we can ask them directly and they will be happy to collaborate with us.

Best regards,
GN
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:55 pm

Guillermo wrote:Hello all,
noiseboyuk wrote:
karlito wrote:Yes! We finally made it to the Steinberg Lounge!
Users - "Sternberg, don't you think you should be interacting with users more in the forum and not just relying on Guillermo's goodwill in his spare time?"

Sternberg - silently moves thread to The Lounge
Not me! By free time I mean: if they E.g. If a rep has finished all his support tickets or support emails, which is almost never the case, or a programer wants to take a small brake from coding, basically that is how it works. The Line 6 idea forum is a good idea and as they are also a Yamaha subsidiary I am pretty sure we can ask them directly and they will be happy to collaborate with us.

Best regards,
GN
Thank you Guillermo!

I hope that Steinberg at least listens to you and that they are able to make use of IdeaScale. It would be a great way to further development of Cubase/Nuendo, and the rest of their product line if they so desire.

(I'm trying to stay optimistic here, even though we keep constantly getting brushed off--I must be a masochist :? )
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by peakae » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:48 am

As a Scandinavian I have to list the 10 rules of Jante.

Law Of Jante:

The ten rules state:

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.
These ten principles or commandments are often claimed to form the "Jante's Shield" of the Scandinavian people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by sonicstate » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:52 pm

jose7822 wrote:
Thank you Guillermo!

I hope that Steinberg at least listens to you and that they are able to make use of IdeaScale. It would be a great way to further development of Cubase/Nuendo, and the rest of their product line if they so desire.

(I'm trying to stay optimistic here, even though we keep constantly getting brushed off--I must be a masochist :? )
Jose, I don't think Steinberg wants to develop Cubase quickly. They just want to develop it enough for most customers to keep paying. You can see how little was done regarding bug fixes since 8.5 came out. Instead of fixing bugs asap, they will rather push them over to the next version, and force people to buy again.

Guillermo himself said they have 3000 feature requests, enough for next 50 years... They may have 3000 requests, but do the really have 3000 that people would be willing to pay for? I doubt that. Maybe they have some 50 good features, that they can sell well. And they will try to extend releasing those features as much as they can. Although they could implement them all in the next release, they will not do that, and rather release them one by one over the next 20 years.

They must walk on edge, release just enough for people to buy, but not release too much, so that they don't run out of good features too quickly. One release will look like it offers enough for the money, and the next one will look like it is not worthed. Lets see which one C9 will turn to be.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by James K » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:44 am

No upgrade money from me for version 9 until they fix poor graphics on Mac in version 8.5.
I'll continue using Logic X and they've lost a long time customer.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:45 pm

I understand that a business has to make money. But, at the same time, the shouldn't take advantage of their customer's good will in upgrading regularly to support one or more of their platforms. When I upgrade to a new version of a software, I do it mainly for a couple of reasons:

1- Obviously because there is a feature, or features, that I'm interested in. But also;
2- Because I believe in the company's direction.

What I expect, and I'm sure most people here agree with me on this, is for Steinberg to release a new version (with the cool new features), AND then follow that main version with bug fixes ONLY. They sort of do this now, BUT then they come out with a Cubase X.5 version with yet more new features and more bugs to fix. Apparently, a one year cycle is not enough to fix anywhere near the amount of bugs that were introduced in the new version, much less the old ones. So this is where the problem arises. How can Steinberg fix the most bugs and also make money in the process?

Perhaps one way to achieve this would be to not release as many features in the X.5 release, and focus more on bug fixing. Or maybe they can go back to the longer development cycle they had before, and charge a little more, to extend the amount of time they need to tackle bug fixing. I AM willing to pay more, provided it is not an astronomical amount, AND that the Cubase/Nuendo team delivers on making sure that the features found in Cubase/Nuendo work as advertised. I feel like this shouldn't even be a subject of conversation. When you buy a product, you expect it to work as advertised. Right?

I feel like Steinberg doesn't really care, but I'm hoping to be proven wrong. Cubase 9 will be the deciding factor for me.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by noiseboyuk » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:42 pm

Jose - maybe a paradigm that might work is to focus a .0 release on features large and small (e.g. disabled tracks), while a .5 release bundles new plugins (e.g. quadrafuzz). That would give the core team more time to develop and bug fix.

Probably not, just an idle thought.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:20 am

noiseboyuk wrote:Jose - maybe a paradigm that might work is to focus a .0 release on features large and small (e.g. disabled tracks), while a .5 release bundles new plugins (e.g. quadrafuzz). That would give the core team more time to develop and bug fix.

Probably not, just an idle thought.
That's actually a great idea!

That way Steinberg can always offer something new on each major and point release, AND have more time to tackle bug fixing. HEAR, HEAR, Steinberg!!!
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Blackout » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:02 pm

sonicstate wrote:
jose7822 wrote:

Guillermo himself said they have 3000 feature requests, enough for next 50 years... They may have 3000 requests, but do the really have 3000 that people would be willing to pay for? I doubt that. Maybe they have some 50 good features, that they can sell well. And they will try to extend releasing those features as much as they can. Although they could implement them all in the next release, they will not do that, and rather release them one by one over the next 20 years.
With respect, this is the biggest crackpot of a justification i have heard in a while. Because a Plugin manager WAS one of those many features that was important enough to make it to the useful good features list that they can sell well back in C7. But as usual with many of their new "features", Steinberg made it half-baked and didnt really finish the job and crippled it, in that you cant rename VST3 plugins with it. And that is half of what the feature was meant to provide. Even Steinberg said back in the day "users should not have to resort to hex editors to rename plugins"...acknowledging that it needs to be fixed, and that it is a sad state of affairs that its not. And they since done....nothing.

So throwing a "fix" for a half-baked feature that was "sold" by Cubase a few versions ago in with a list of 3000 "new requests for maybe useful features that may-or-may-not-sell from those bleating sheep in the meadow" is an insult quite frankly.

Again we come back to the same old request that we hear constantly on here, for half-baked features to be finished before new ones are "sold" to us.

And for that request to be promptly dismissed.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:37 pm

I completely agree with Blackout here. And if the early (incomplete, to the point of missing KEY features and full of bugs) release of Dorico is any indication, I fear that Cubase 9 will be more of the same. Obviously Cubase is a much more mature product than Dorico. But the point still remains, Steinberg doesn't care to sell us unfinished software (OK, technically all software is a work in progress. But I'm sure you guys get my point).
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by alexis » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:11 am

The complaint of half-baked implementation is one of the most common, perhaps the most common one made on these forums.

Has Steinberg ever addressed that perception among its user base?
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:22 am

alexis wrote:The complaint of half-baked implementation is one of the most common, perhaps the most common one made on these forums.

Has Steinberg ever addressed that perception among its user base?
I think so. By asking users to rank the new features they'd like to see, and then dole out new shiny toys regularly, Steinberg manages to distract users from that concern you mentioned. It doesn't seem to ever fail. And, by the way, I'd include the call to fix bugs in the same category more or less.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by VinnieD » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:35 pm

I suggest that all that complain should first read the book 'Perfect Software, and other illusions of testing'...

https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Software ... 0932633692

Look at the big picture, has Apple ever released flawless software? Has Microsoft delivered ever pefect software?

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Ed Doll » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:46 pm

jose7822 wrote:I completely agree with Blackout here. And if the early (incomplete, to the point of missing KEY features and full of bugs) release of Dorico is any indication, I fear that Cubase 9 will be more of the same. Obviously Cubase is a much more mature product than Dorico. But the point still remains, Steinberg doesn't care to sell us unfinished software (OK, technically all software is a work in progress. But I'm sure you guys get my point).
Actually, we do care a lot and the release of Dorico is not an indication as it is a completely different development branch with a different development team in a different location. Also, Dorico's Daniel Spreadbury communicated very openly what Dorico will be in its first incarnation and what it is not going to be. We even had the pre-release forum online months before its release to discuss with users and made them aware of what to expect.

The next big Cubase version will have a lot to offer and will address workflow complaints and bugs at the same time.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:30 pm

VinnieD wrote:I suggest that all that complain should first read the book 'Perfect Software, and other illusions of testing'...

https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Software ... 0932633692

Look at the big picture, has Apple ever released flawless software? Has Microsoft delivered ever pefect software?

My 2 cts (as QA specialist)
That's the definition of a red herring... or strawman...

The issue isn't delivering a perfect software, the issue is fixing what is advertised and broken.

Further more, I don't really understand the desire by users to give software companies all this leeway. When was the last time we heard similar arguments about cars, or coffee machines, or kitchenware? When you come home and your nice dinner set has plates with cracks in them, does the seller say "Look at the big picture, there's no such thing as a perfect product."? Nope, instead you get a refund because you didn't get what you paid for. But somehow so many software users have allowed themselves to get bent over rather than push for what's right.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by matjones » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:34 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
VinnieD wrote:I suggest that all that complain should first read the book 'Perfect Software, and other illusions of testing'...

https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Software ... 0932633692

Look at the big picture, has Apple ever released flawless software? Has Microsoft delivered ever pefect software?

My 2 cts (as QA specialist)
That's the definition of a red herring... or strawman...

The issue isn't delivering a perfect software, the issue is fixing what is advertised and broken.

Further more, I don't really understand the desire by users to give software companies all this leeway. When was the last time we heard similar arguments about cars, or coffee machines, or kitchenware? When you come home and your nice dinner set has plates with cracks in them, does the seller say "Look at the big picture, there's no such thing as a perfect product."? Nope, instead you get a refund because you didn't get what you paid for. But somehow so many software users have allowed themselves to get bent over rather than push for what's right.

What he just said.......
Cubase 10.0.40 Asus Z390-Plus, i9 9900 @ 3.7GHz, 64GB DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Asus RX 570, RME Multiface II PCIe, SSL Alpha Channel, UAD2 Octo/Solo/Quad, UA6176, Pod X3 Pro, Slate VCC/VTM/Trigger etc, SoundToys 5, Waves 10, HALion 6, The Grand 3, BFD3 (+ Expansions), WL9.5, Melodyne Studio 4, Arturia VC7, Relab LX480, iZotope MPS, Eventide XI, Various toys, Telefunken, Neumann, AKG,Sontronics, Shure Mics, Adam A7X and Avantone monitors, AKG K702, ATH-M70x, Nektar P6, Warwick, Spector Basses, Gibson Les Paul Studio & loads of other junk.


Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they're open.

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sonicstate
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by sonicstate » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:41 am

I think I've been reading such comments for too many years now. What changed? Ehm...
Cubase does the job, no matter the half-baked functions. What can be done, show goes on. If a tool is bent out of shape a bit, you can still use it. Sure, If my new shiny car was bent a bit, I would drive it back to seller, let them fix it. But software seems to be another story, or another universe...
Cubase Pro 8.5, Win 64bit, i7-4770K @4.3GHz, ASUS Z87-K, 16Gb, RME HDSP 9652, BCF 2000, BCR 2000, Novation Launchpad Mini, M-Audio TriggerFinger, M-Audio Axiom AIR Mini 32, Korg NanoKey, plenty outboard synths and fx, 24ch Studiomaster mixer, Yamaha NS10s, Dynaudio BM5, Samson Rubicon R8a Ribbon, etc...

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