An open plea to Steinberg

General discussions on songwriting, mixing, music business and other music related topics.
Blackout
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Blackout » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:41 am

sonicstate wrote:I think I've been reading such comments for too many years now. What changed? Ehm...
Cubase does the job, no matter the half-baked functions. What can be done, show goes on. If a tool is bent out of shape a bit, you can still use it. Sure, If my new shiny car was bent a bit, I would drive it back to seller, let them fix it. But software seems to be another story, or another universe...
i agree 100%. The shame is the false marketing hope we were given at the start of the year when $teinberg did the whole "We are listening now...we werent listening before, but we are listening now...trust us. See, to prove it heres a poll for you to vote for things for us to fix..." and then it was quickly ignored and "business as usual".

How many times can they "cry wolf" and tell us they are finally listening NOW...but continue to ignore the cries for FIXES FIRST im not sure. Seems like its forever?
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Raphie » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:04 pm

@Ed, i really hope cubase will finally address the random pops and crackles when multiprocessing is enabled, dissabling multi processing sets my PC 10 years back in time, but especially with loads of I/O (32 channels summing), several ext ins, 40 instrument inputs, Cubase just can't hold-up. Ever since ASIO Guard has been introduced, things went downhill. Now in Win10 it's even more sensitive. I'm NOT interested in new features or fx, or synths AT ALL, untill this is sorted. Wavelab works great! Other daws have none of these issues. It's really a Cubase audio engine issue.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by noiseboyuk » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:35 pm

Ed Doll wrote:Actually, we do care a lot and the release of Dorico is not an indication as it is a completely different development branch with a different development team in a different location. Also, Dorico's Daniel Spreadbury communicated very openly what Dorico will be in its first incarnation and what it is not going to be. We even had the pre-release forum online months before its release to discuss with users and made them aware of what to expect.

The next big Cubase version will have a lot to offer and will address workflow complaints and bugs at the same time.
Grateful for that post, Ed. Daring to hope that 9 will be a positive step forward.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:33 am

Ed Doll wrote:
jose7822 wrote:I completely agree with Blackout here. And if the early (incomplete, to the point of missing KEY features and full of bugs) release of Dorico is any indication, I fear that Cubase 9 will be more of the same. Obviously Cubase is a much more mature product than Dorico. But the point still remains, Steinberg doesn't care to sell us unfinished software (OK, technically all software is a work in progress. But I'm sure you guys get my point).
Actually, we do care a lot and the release of Dorico is not an indication as it is a completely different development branch with a different development team in a different location. Also, Dorico's Daniel Spreadbury communicated very openly what Dorico will be in its first incarnation and what it is not going to be. We even had the pre-release forum online months before its release to discuss with users and made them aware of what to expect.

The next big Cubase version will have a lot to offer and will address workflow complaints and bugs at the same time.
I'll believe it when I see the comments from those who'll jump on the first iteration of Cubase 9. Based on their reports, I'll make my decision on whether to upgrade or not :-).
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by VinnieD » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:27 am

That's the definition of a red herring... or strawman...

The issue isn't delivering a perfect software, the issue is fixing what is advertised and broken.

Further more, I don't really understand the desire by users to give software companies all this leeway. When was the last time we heard similar arguments about cars, or coffee machines, or kitchenware? When you come home and your nice dinner set has plates with cracks in them, does the seller say "Look at the big picture, there's no such thing as a perfect product."? Nope, instead you get a refund because you didn't get what you paid for. But somehow so many software users have allowed themselves to get bent over rather than push for what's right.
Your reasoning is very subjective. For me Cubase works as advertised. For many non-complainers it just works (que... Apple). I see many users with a specific issue that occurs on their system only, or at least a very limited group. I also see some issues with performance being mentioned (CPU load for example) which I think should be addressed in the next release. This being said, the VST load limitiation is again a Windows issue as I understand. My point is that there is not a unified issue that breaks the whole Cubase experience for all users, and the book I shamelessly plugged deals with that. It is impossible to write software that works flawwless on all parts of an open ecosystem such as Windows PC's.

If you want flawless recording/ mixing without software bugs, go for an oldschool hardware based setup, without a computer. Otherwise deal with soft and hardware issues.

Btw, the problems with quality in software is based on waived consumer rights in the USA, to stimulate silicon valley. Now that these companies are too big to fail, these arrangements will remain forever, I am afraid...
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Raphie » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:02 pm

The plopping and crackling problems many have are real, they all have to do with 8.xx and are beyond applying top 10 daw optimization lists. Cubase is also the only daw displaying this behaviour, regardless of buffer size, power scheme, core parking etc etc. They REALLY need to be resolved.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by VinnieD » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:06 pm

Raphie wrote:The plopping and crackling problems many have are real, they all have to do with 8.xx and are beyond applying top 10 daw optimization lists. Cubase is also the only daw displaying this behaviour, regardless of buffer size, power scheme, core parking etc etc. They REALLY need to be resolved.
Are you sure it is Cubase? Really? If so, you should offer your services to Steinberg as QA analist...

I had pops and clicks recently too, after a Win10 update. plugging my sound card to a different USB pot fixed that, prolly a different issue, but who knows? Maybe your system only has one chipset that is negatively affected by an OS update?

Again, there are infinite configurations of PC systems, with infinite compatibility issues. On Mac, the closed system on the other hand often makes it difficult for devs to test new OS features in time as Apple releases test versions pretty late in their cycle, hence the always delayed green light with a new OSX version. Software development can be a real beach sometimes...
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Raphie » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:14 pm

I'm a very educated user. I use a RME MadiFX, I've tried all the setting suggestions, NOTHING works. Like many in the click and plops thread. This IS a Cubase 8.5.2 issue, I had to reinstall 7.5.4 in order to be able to finish a project.
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VinnieD
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by VinnieD » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:28 pm

Sounds indeed like a CB8 series issue, however, did you try to single out the cause by using, for example a different system with the same RME card? Did you try a different sound card on your current system? Have you been in contact with Steinberg, and have they confirmed the issue? Do all RME MadiFX users run into the same issue? I do notice that on the RME site a lot can cause pops and clicks related to Cubendo and settings on other components/ chipsets, which held me off a while ago to look for a new sound card from that brand to replace my Komplete Audio 6. Glad I did not do it as I had my issue fixed recently...

Not saying that you have to do all I said, but as QA professional (ook een kaaskop btw ;-)), I know that a bug can have a zillion causes, so unless there is a near 100% fool proof reproduction of an issue, it will be hard to actually find the cause and get it fixed.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:47 pm

VinnieD!

It seems like you've missed many issues mentioned in this thread that involve unfinished features and bugs that have persist for years in Cubase, and which affect ALL users to a different degree. Obviously, if you don't use any of these features then it doesn't affect you, and for YOU Cubase would indeed be working as advertised. But you can't assume that everyone has the same workflow as you.

Also, I have software that works as advertise and, when it doesn't, it gets fixed as soon as possible (i.e. Reaper, FabFilter, Toontrack, UAD, Izotope, etc). All of those work flawlessly for me. Why is Steinberg the exception?
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:51 pm

VinnieD wrote:Sounds indeed like a CB8 series issue, however, did you try to single out the cause by using, for example a different system with the same RME card? Did you try a different sound card on your current system? Have you been in contact with Steinberg, and have they confirmed the issue? Do all RME MadiFX users run into the same issue? I do notice that on the RME site a lot can cause pops and clicks related to Cubendo and settings on other components/ chipsets, which held me off a while ago to look for a new sound card from that brand to replace my Komplete Audio 6. Glad I did not do it as I had my issue fixed recently...

Not saying that you have to do all I said, but as QA professional (ook een kaaskop btw ;-)), I know that a bug can have a zillion causes, so unless there is a near 100% fool proof reproduction of an issue, it will be hard to actually find the cause and get it fixed.
If anything RME is one of the few hardware companies that quickly addresses any issues they encounter with constant updates. I've been an RME user for almost 10 years and don't have anything but respect for that company. They also deliver what they advertise everytime!
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by greggybud » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:52 pm

jose7822 wrote:VinnieD!
It seems like you've missed many issues mentioned in this thread that involve unfinished features and bugs that have persist for years in Cubase, and which affect ALL users to a different degree. Obviously, if you don't use any of these features then it doesn't affect you, and for YOU Cubase would indeed be working as advertised. But you can't assume that everyone has the same workflow as you.
Very true!

There are hundreds of verified-by-steinberg bugs. So why don't they get fixed? Follow the money. Depending on your workflow they may or may not be important.

For example myself working with 4 video monitors (using all 3 mix consoles) and lots of outboard synths and hardware interfaced by 4 MOTU Midi Timepieces for 32 in/outs and a QconPro...my biggest complaints are centered around navigation and focus issues because I value fast workflow, and make use of as many key commands to make things more efficient on a daily basis.

But for the user just using a laptop, the potential issues will be very different.

As said before, for any business...follow the money. It's a compromise between prosumers who are in the drivers seat for all DAW's as opposed to those every-day and professional users. Unlike the things and concepts that appeal to prosumers, I believe the OP, as well as myself, are asking for more resources devoted to making what already exists work...or work better and focus on bugs.

And by the way, since 1997 I have never had any crackling (unless I purposely set my buffer size too low) or resource issues...ever. I'm guessing one reason is my PC's have been built for audio by people who know DAW's.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by sonicstate » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:36 am

Cubase can work as advertised only for those who never use the many flawed features. Otherwise, it is impossible to say that it works as advertised. There are simply too many quirks.

If one doesn't use multiple screens, one cannot encounter problems with windows not being placed properly. If one doesn't use Generic Remote, one cannot encounter issues and inconsistencies there. If one doesn't use render in place, one will never see bugs there. And so on.

One thing are system related problems, like skipping audio and midi latency. But another thing are bugs which are result of sloppy programmers, or not enough resources.

Clearly Cubase will not work well on a broken system. But on a system where other DAWs work fine, Cubase should work fine too. And several bugs should have been fixed months or years ago. And inconsistencies should never be there in the first place. And when will they ever update Generic Remote to include all mixer and channel functions? Ehh...
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by VinnieD » Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:01 pm

So one person complains his screen system has issues with navigation, but he NEVER had issues with pops etc... because he has a dedicated build as system.... another person's issue is WITH pops etc...

Again... many issues indeed, but for relative small groups of the user base. Your issues are severe, but not high in priority as they are not representing the majority of users. Indeed probably a commercial choice, but hey, with a plenty open issues and limited resources choices have to be made.

I do understand all your concerns, but posting in a thread like this is not helping getting issues fixed. Posting proper bug reports in their respective places will work much better then a whine fest in a general thread.

Bottom line is, you as individual consumers have only one way to ultimately have influence over a company, with your wallet.

Btw, this is my last post in this thread, as I have better things to do, like make more music. I'll just agree to disagree with y'all

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Raphie » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:33 pm

The forum is flooded with cracks and pops issues. :(
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:53 pm

Raphie wrote:The forum is flooded with cracks and pops issues. :(
Not only in the General forum, but in the Issues forums as well. I'm not sure why VinnieD is being so defensive of Cubase instead of being sympathetic to others who are having real issues with the software. I mean, what else besides complaining do we have left if Steinberg doesn't fix the many reported issues, some of which have been there for years?

The ONLY part of VinnieD's comments I did agree with was the voting with my wallet part. That's it, lol.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by fiddler2007 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:46 pm

I Like Cubase for sure, especially the way it works regarding graphics, flexible audio editing, and not to forget the midi department. For now have played along paying about 100 bucks (or 50?) from update to update, a regular ball game almost half yearly. But still wonder why so many clients stick with this Steinberg - Cubase game; too many bugs stay unfixed. I begin to think that bugs are kept in older versions on purpose, or even put in, so they can sell you the new version with all of a sudden some old annoyances fixed if you pay 100 bucks, yes please, thank you.

Now there's a number nine out LoL; i think enough is enough. Cubase 8.5 seems very stable for now, except for a few bugs like playback time lapse. Might seriously consider changing to another DAW by the way .... any suggestions? F

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by matjones » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:50 pm

fiddler2007 wrote:I Like Cubase for sure, especially the way it works regarding graphics, flexible audio editing, and not to forget the midi department. For now have played along paying about 100 bucks (or 50?) from update to update, a regular ball game almost half yearly. But still wonder why so many clients stick with this Steinberg - Cubase game; too many bugs stay unfixed. I begin to think that bugs are kept in older versions on purpose, or even put in, so they can sell you the new version with all of a sudden some old annoyances fixed if you pay 100 bucks, yes please, thank you.

Now there's a number nine out LoL; i think enough is enough. Cubase 8.5 seems very stable for now, except for a few bugs like playback time lapse. Might seriously consider changing to another DAW by the way .... any suggestions? F
So freeze your system or do what the 'smart money' does and wait until the negative chatter dies down on the forum and either buy then or try the demo.... took me a couple of years to learn that one lol...
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by greggybud » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:33 pm

fiddler2007 wrote:I Like Cubase for sure, especially the way it works regarding graphics, flexible audio editing, and not to forget the midi department. For now have played along paying about 100 bucks (or 50?) from update to update, a regular ball game almost half yearly. But still wonder why so many clients stick with this Steinberg - Cubase game; too many bugs stay unfixed. I begin to think that bugs are kept in older versions on purpose, or even put in, so they can sell you the new version with all of a sudden some old annoyances fixed if you pay 100 bucks, yes please, thank you.

Now there's a number nine out LoL; i think enough is enough. Cubase 8.5 seems very stable for now, except for a few bugs like playback time lapse. Might seriously consider changing to another DAW by the way .... any suggestions? F
I have been told Digital Performer is most "close" but also Studio One has a fresher foundation and it's definitely "up and coming." I think you will find advantages and disadvantages with those plus I know for a fact, missing features. There are also some nice features in those but missing in Cubase. With that said, I still think Cubase is the most "feature rich" DAW. Therefore it depends on your workflow and goals of a DAW. What do you really need in a DAW?

Keep in mind what seems like a simple feature request or simple bug fix might in reality be extremely difficult and costly. Unfortunately, bug-fixing and workflow improvements don't necessarily attract new users.

For myself at some point I just have to say this is just a tool and I'm going to make the best of it that I can. My goal is completed tracks with deadlines. Is your goal the same? My issues are often better workflow and unfinished features/bugs and continual work-arounds. Reading forums, but limiting my time on them, I find users whos goal is not the same as mine. For some I think it is simply a hobby or just experimenting and pushing the limits of the DAW. The result might be some finished tracks, but that is secondary to the "pure enjoyment" of exploring the DAW. You find this in every area of audio. Users who have to meet an objective vs. users who are hobbyists. An example would be spending days or weeks comparing a emulation VSTI to the real synthesizer. Another example is esoteric comparisons of high end converters where IMO it often comes down to which "flavor" and nothing is really "best" and rarely conducted objectively blind in controlled audio environments. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with this, but it is different than the user who just wants to use the tool to meet an objective. Most users fall somewhere in the middle.

So what are your goals? How much time do you want to spend to really learn a new DAW? I will guarantee you there are bugs in every DAW with unhappy users. Assuming Cubase is the most feature-rich DAW is it not acceptable to assume it might be the one plagued with the most bugs? That is no license for Steinberg to ignore the most common verified bugs, but I think they also have to make a profit for Yamaha with each new release. Personally I'm thankful they haven't dreamed up LoopMash3. :lol: Follow the money. The money is controlled by prosumers, not every-day users or pros with deadlines. This is why I think so many bugs go ignored.

Keep perspective that forums may not represent the overall status of any DAW. I'm here to learn. Many have questions that can be easily answered and then never participate again. The majority of DAW users I think never participate.

Does mix history interest you? I find it amusing to see now that we got mix undo...many are begging for the mix undo to be stored with the project. Or better yet, keep the last 20 changes but somehow delete the prior change. More feature requests and complaining right?

The same goes for sampler tracks. We got it, but it's not nearly good enough, and now look at all the potential sampler improvements. Steinberg just opened more cans of worms.

Meanwhile some very basic core DAW function bugs and concepts go unfixed...year in and year out.

So does mix history or sampler tracks seduce you? If not...stay on 8.5, or look to the other side where the grass looks greener.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by fiddler2007 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:57 pm

Thanks for your extensive reply and information. Been using Cubase a lot for professional video music scoring, FX and comment editing in the past. These days more as tool for songwriting etc. BTW a can of worms is necessary at times, but only for fishing really. F

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Naturligasteg » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:12 pm

jose7822 wrote: If anything RME is one of the few hardware companies that quickly addresses any issues they encounter with constant updates. I've been an RME user for almost 10 years and don't have anything but respect for that company. They also deliver what they advertise everytime!
Agree. I have reported two issues with RME gear and the actually fixed the bugs AND let me know they fixed them. Stellar support. The cost a lot, but that is why I stayed with RME.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by mbr » Tue May 02, 2017 2:39 am

Raphie wrote:The forum is flooded with cracks and pops issues. :(

Yep !!! Such a pitty.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by noiseboyuk » Wed May 02, 2018 7:08 pm

Time perhaps for a thread revival, even though this thread has (absurdly) been moved to The Lounge.

On the face of it, Steinberg have indeed listened to us. 9.5 in particular was all about smaller improvements and workflow boosts. However, they've missed a critical part of the picture - bug fixes and performance improvements. I'm near-clinicaly-depressed about the current state of Cubase. Many of us have our issues, the problems and niggles that stop us from really moving forward with Cubase. For me, the really big ones are to do with Track Archives and Multitimbral Disabled Tracks (in this logged issues thread here - viewtopic.php?f=253&t=123873 . Cubase has all the tools I need to have a slick, effective modular-template based approach, but its so woefully buggy (and has been for years) that it's like pulling teeth.

After a few terrible years, Avid have really started to up their game in Pro Tools. Their implementation of Track Presets leaves Cubase for dust, and promises a revolution in how you can worth with that DAW. If they really focus on midi (as they've hinted) then it might finally be time to wave goodbye to Cubase. But I so long for Steinberg to really grab the bull by the horns and focus on support, bugs and performance.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by -steve- » Wed May 02, 2018 11:59 pm

It's interesting to look through this old thread though to see how many people who said they would leave Cubase have updated anyway, and are still using Cubase. Well, this forum is on the Internet.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by OxygenBeats » Thu May 03, 2018 6:59 am

-steve- wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 11:59 pm
It's interesting to look through this old thread though to see how many people who said they would leave Cubase have updated anyway, and are still using Cubase. Well, this forum is on the Internet.
lol

Well, it's very hard to switch away from your main DAW after you've invested your whole career working on it and you know it inside and out. I think we just like to threaten leaving so that Steinberg will take some of our concerns or ideas seriously sometimes, when it feels like we are not being taken seriously.

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