The Windows 10 jitters.

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shadowfax
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The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by shadowfax » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:03 pm

Hi, in a couple of days I will collect my new puter with W10 on it and I'm a bit worried about it..those forced updates :shock: are they really that bad? do they re configure your puter? any pointers to what's possible to do to make life easier with Cubase 10 on windows 10 would be very helpful... :)

cheers, Kevin (a bit worried) :?
https://soundcloud.com/knmac ... Cubase 10.5..Windows 10..Intel Core i9 9900K Coffee Lake Refresh 3.6GHz Eight Core 1151 Socket Overclockable Processor, WD Black WDS250G3X0C SN750 - 250GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD, ASRock AMD Radeon RX580 8GB OC Phantom Gaming D Dual Fan Graphics Card,
Gigabyte Z390 GAMING X Intel Socket 1151 ATX HDMI DDR4 USB C 3.1 M.2 Motherboard, 32GB ram, 2x Team GX2 1TB SATA III SSD. Yamaha N8.

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:23 pm

Hi,

After every single bigger Windows update, I have to run eLCC application as Administrator and click to Maintenance, to fix my Soft-eLicenser. That's it on my side.

Some users reinstall Cubase (as administrator). It cannot be wrong to do so, you can't break anything.
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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by ckon » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:55 am

shadowfax wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:03 pm
Hi, in a couple of days I will collect my new puter with W10 on it and I'm a bit worried about it..those forced updates :shock: are they really that bad? do they re configure your puter? any pointers to what's possible to do to make life easier with Cubase 10 on windows 10 would be very helpful... :)

cheers, Kevin (a bit worried) :?
If on win10 pro version you have 2 options for updates.

1. Delay each up date by 'pausing' the updates and custom setting date for latest possible.

2. Disable the windows updates 'service' and do an updates a few times a year by re-enabling and connecting to net.

This will give you breathing space to check forums for any issues found by users.
ckon:

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by shadowfax » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:39 am

Thanks guys, I do have W10pro so will follow your advice ckon..and that bit about having to fix your elicencer or re installing Cubase as a consequence of an update is just mad..it;s strange that moving to Windows 10 is a worrying time when it should be an exiting time...
cheers for the info guys..
https://soundcloud.com/knmac ... Cubase 10.5..Windows 10..Intel Core i9 9900K Coffee Lake Refresh 3.6GHz Eight Core 1151 Socket Overclockable Processor, WD Black WDS250G3X0C SN750 - 250GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD, ASRock AMD Radeon RX580 8GB OC Phantom Gaming D Dual Fan Graphics Card,
Gigabyte Z390 GAMING X Intel Socket 1151 ATX HDMI DDR4 USB C 3.1 M.2 Motherboard, 32GB ram, 2x Team GX2 1TB SATA III SSD. Yamaha N8.

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by skijumptoes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:43 am

I've not had any issues with forced updates, personally. But it's a fresh Win 10 install that i'm running since start of the year, and very minimal audio config containing only the stuff i require installed.
As yours is a new Win 10 setup i'd hope you get the same experience. Best of luck, i'm sure you'll be very pleased with it! :)

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by Parrotspain » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:51 am

In addition to the eLicenser issue, I sometimes have to remove and re-install the Yamaha driver for my UR22 after updates. Otherwise, from a Cubase perspective it's then fine. In general I have found Windows 10 (Home) to be a stable OS.
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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by mozart » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:09 am

At the risk of de-railing this thread

Do you guys dual boot with win 10 - one partition for Internet and admin and one streamlined for DAW?

I do that with win 7 currently, Updating to 10 soon and wondered whether it was still advised.....
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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by skijumptoes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:26 am

I find a dual boot system to be more unstable and inconvenient personally, particularly if you're sharing data across secondary drives as there exists the possibility of bringing infected files into an out of date audio partition, plus i've had boot problems in the past whereby the partitions managed to swap themselves and change drive letters and i couldn't even get into safe mode - was a right pain.

Win 10 is equally stable running internet applications alongside Audio production, as it is when setup as it's own streamlined audio install (in my experience).

For reference, I have a studio PC that has no internet and running Cubase on latest Win 10, and also a laptop that i use for everyday tasks and occasionally running Cubase. In regards to latency/audio performance i can use the same interface on both devices and there's minimal difference if i use VSTi's or Guitar amp sims.

The studio (Offline) PC has better DPC latency when i check it using apps, due to having less bloat and network adapters disabled.. But in real world use i can barely notice a difference, if i could run the internet out to the studio PC easy then i'd do so, it would only mean enabling one adapter which i don't think would have any major effect. But it's running a cable and the fear that i'll spend too much time procrastinating that's stopping me, not performance/stability concerns.

To answer your question, (in my opinion) It really depends if you want to have a fully offline partition and/or latency is a primary concern. If you're aiming for VERY low buffer/latency then yes a streamlined machine will proportionally yield greater results the tighter you go. For me 4-6ms is good so i have not such strict requirements.

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by Prock » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:59 pm

I let Win 10 Pro update whenever it wants and I never an issue with Cubase or the eLCC. I would even go as far to say that CB seems to run better after each Win 10 update.

Regards 8-)
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DAW: Cubase Pro 10.5.10, OS: Win 10 Pro x64, CPU: Intel Core i7 4700K @ 4.0GHz, RAM: 32GB/DDR4/2800MHz, Graphics: 4GB GeForce GTX 960, Mobo: MSI Z170A Gaming Pro Carbon, AI: PreSonus Studio 192 Mobile, Mic Preamp: PreSonus TubePre, Headphone Amp: PreSonus HP4, Studio Monitors: Mackie MR5, 3rd Party VSTs: GSi VB3-II, SampleTank 3, Amplitube 4, Miroslav Philharmonik 2, EZDrummer 2

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by Parrotspain » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:56 pm

Nowadays I use the internet freely on the same system. It's so convenient for throwing files around the place. I keep Defender up to date and occasionally sweep through with Malware Bytes or similar to clear any Adware off.
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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by brycem » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:15 pm

Prock wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:59 pm
I let Win 10 Pro update whenever it wants and I never an issue with Cubase or the eLCC. I would even go as far to say that CB seems to run better after each Win 10 update.

Regards 8-)
I have been burned - wouldn't boot into windows after updating, not even safe mode. Had to wipe it and reinstall everything.

I'm now running macrium reflect to image my os drive before I allow win 10 to update...
Cubase 10, Wavelab 9.5, Windows 10, UAD Quad, 2x RME Hdspe AES, 2x Lynx Aurora, i7 8700k, asus rog maximus x hero

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by Parrotspain » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:23 pm

@Brycem. I take a system drive image about twice a year as a back up too.
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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by jaslan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:34 pm

Never had an issue after a Win10 update. Ironically, I have had to update eLCC or run licenser maintenance a few times after a CUBASE update. I don’t think the Windows updates will be the problem. Most likely problems will be other apps running or checking for updates or email in the background and interrupting the ASIO stream.
Cubase Pro 10. Core-i7 7700HQ, 16GB RAM, Windows 10. UR44. M-Audio Axiom Pro 61. Fishman TriplePlay. Komplete 11 Ultimate. Jamstix 4. Absolute VST3. 418 Carrier Landings.
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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by l3v3l6 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:20 pm

Windows 10 updates have never caused a problem with my Cubase 10 installation. On the other hand, after updating Cubase I always need to run eLCC as administrator (once) before starting Cubase.
Windows 10 Pro x64, Cubase 10, Wavelab Pro 9.5, Intel 7700K, 16GB RAM, MR816CX, Deep Mind 12, Virus TI Polar, Moog Voyager RME, JBL 4326P Monitors.
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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by shadowfax » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:36 am

Lots of interesting comments, I don't feel quite so worried now, really appreciate the input, thank you.
https://soundcloud.com/knmac ... Cubase 10.5..Windows 10..Intel Core i9 9900K Coffee Lake Refresh 3.6GHz Eight Core 1151 Socket Overclockable Processor, WD Black WDS250G3X0C SN750 - 250GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD, ASRock AMD Radeon RX580 8GB OC Phantom Gaming D Dual Fan Graphics Card,
Gigabyte Z390 GAMING X Intel Socket 1151 ATX HDMI DDR4 USB C 3.1 M.2 Motherboard, 32GB ram, 2x Team GX2 1TB SATA III SSD. Yamaha N8.

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm

shadowfax wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:39 am
Thanks guys, I do have W10pro so will follow your advice ckon..and that bit about having to fix your elicencer or re installing Cubase as a consequence of an update is just mad..it;s strange that moving to Windows 10 is a worrying time when it should be an exiting time...
cheers for the info guys..
It's been explained to me by an MS employee who does a lot of audio work that some copyright protection software - using a dongle or not - uses 'clever' ways to secure licenses. Unfortunately those ways aren't always in line with what MS requires for proper official operation. So if that's the case the maker of that copyright protection has to update drivers in time for OS updates to keep things working properly. So that explains why sometimes there appears to be incompatibility issues.

I've personally deferred feature updates by 365 days and security updates I do regularly (though they can be deferred up to 30 days). In my opinion that's plenty for both.
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Radeon VII / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX 7/ Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:28 pm

mozart wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:09 am
At the risk of de-railing this thread

Do you guys dual boot with win 10 - one partition for Internet and admin and one streamlined for DAW?

I do that with win 7 currently, Updating to 10 soon and wondered whether it was still advised.....
I doubt you're really protecting your device from that much though when you do that. I would imagine that if your computer gets infected with something nasty when using the internet partition it'd spread whatever problems you get onto the machine as a whole.

I think the more practical solution is to stay with one partition and do regular "real" backups you can fall back on should trouble arise.
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Radeon VII / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX 7/ Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by shadowfax » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:37 am

MattiasNYC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:26 pm
shadowfax wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:39 am
Thanks guys, I do have W10pro so will follow your advice ckon..and that bit about having to fix your elicencer or re installing Cubase as a consequence of an update is just mad..it;s strange that moving to Windows 10 is a worrying time when it should be an exiting time...
cheers for the info guys..
It's been explained to me by an MS employee who does a lot of audio work that some copyright protection software - using a dongle or not - uses 'clever' ways to secure licenses. Unfortunately those ways aren't always in line with what MS requires for proper official operation. So if that's the case the maker of that copyright protection has to update drivers in time for OS updates to keep things working properly. So that explains why sometimes there appears to be incompatibility issues.

I've personally deferred feature updates by 365 days and security updates I do regularly (though they can be deferred up to 30 days). In my opinion that's plenty for both.
interesting, re installing the e licencer is not such a big deal I suppose, my new puter is up and running now and isnt quite so scary as I thought and it's mind bogglingly fast with the os on an MVNe disc..gotta get round to updating my sig...
https://soundcloud.com/knmac ... Cubase 10.5..Windows 10..Intel Core i9 9900K Coffee Lake Refresh 3.6GHz Eight Core 1151 Socket Overclockable Processor, WD Black WDS250G3X0C SN750 - 250GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD, ASRock AMD Radeon RX580 8GB OC Phantom Gaming D Dual Fan Graphics Card,
Gigabyte Z390 GAMING X Intel Socket 1151 ATX HDMI DDR4 USB C 3.1 M.2 Motherboard, 32GB ram, 2x Team GX2 1TB SATA III SSD. Yamaha N8.

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by Nickeldome » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:28 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:28 pm
mozart wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:09 am
At the risk of de-railing this thread

Do you guys dual boot with win 10 - one partition for Internet and admin and one streamlined for DAW?

I do that with win 7 currently, Updating to 10 soon and wondered whether it was still advised.....
I doubt you're really protecting your device from that much though when you do that. I would imagine that if your computer gets infected with something nasty when using the internet partition it'd spread whatever problems you get onto the machine as a whole.

I think the more practical solution is to stay with one partition and do regular "real" backups you can fall back on should trouble arise.
At the risk of de-railing this thread even more? :D

Unfortunately virus infections are not prevented by using a separate partition that's not connected to the Internet. You will import them when you are on the Internet with the other partition, probably without you knowing it? Lots of nasty ones write code in for instance any boot-sector it can find and then will be loaded into your system memory during boot. From there it will try to do the damage it was designed for. Especially stuff like ransomware will scan every accessible disk or external media looking for any file it can possibly encrypt.

The best way to keep the risk of an infection to a minimum is firstly have a good up to date virus/malware scanner. And secondly, don't do your daily work with a user account that has local admin rights. Also create a separate password for your admin account so malicious processes won't be able to install easily in the background without you knowing about it. Simply right click and choose 'run as administrator' should not be possible without entering a valid password! If you need certain programs to run under your admin account then configure them separately. But don't expose your entire system just because it's 'easier' to configure.

And it's been said over and over and again....! Make backups on a regular basis! Only you can determine what you can and cannot live without and how often you will need to do this? And make these on external media also stored off site or in the cloud if you still want them after a fire has destroyed everything inside your house?

As for what this thread was actually about, :) the Windows 10 feature updates? In my case it's usually the same suspects that need attention after such an update. Elicenser, Omnisphere and sometimes some other plugins that need reactivation. But it has never been a showstopper and most of the time it was all fixed within 10 minutes or so?

So to anybody out there that is afraid for the next feature update? I'd say, don't be. So far, from when I started with Windows 10 (v1511) up until now (v1903), what I had to fix was more of a nuisance than an actual problem. I personally never had any major issues. That doesn't mean it can't happen of course? But I think that in most cases it's very unlikely you'll end up with an unrecoverable situation that forces you to completely reinstall Windows.
Cubase Pro - Wavelab Pro (always latest version) Windows 10 Pro 64bit / Asus TUF Mark 1 X299 / i9-7900X (at 4.3 GHZ) / 64GB RAM / Geforce GTX 1060 6G / System drive Samsung M.2 1TB 960Pro / Kontakt drives 3 x 1TB Samsung Evo / Project/Audio/Archive drive 10TB Seagate Ironwolf - Audio interface: Roland UA-1610 / External gear: Kawai MP11 / Kurzweil PC88 / Sequential Circuits Prophet 5 / Roland JV1080 / Roland D50 / Korg 01/W / Elka EK22 – Midi controllers: Roli Seabord Rise 49, SoundQuest 8port-SE / Nektar Panorama P1 / Roland Octopad II / Akai MPD18 - Main VST's: Kontakt 6 / Padshop Pro / Spectrasonics Omnisphere 2.6, Trillian & Keyscape / Arturia V-collection / FXpansion BFD 3 / Toontrack Superior Drummer 3
All time user of Cubase since Atari V2 (around 1990)

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:32 pm

shadowfax wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:37 am
interesting, re installing the e licencer is not such a big deal I suppose, my new puter is up and running now and isnt quite so scary as I thought and it's mind bogglingly fast with the os on an MVNe disc..gotta get round to updating my sig...
I've only had to update the eLicenser software, not reinstall..

Very cool you're happy with your system though. Please let us know what hardware you ended up getting. :-)
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Radeon VII / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX 7/ Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by shadowfax » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:19 pm

Hi, I ended up with
Case Antec P101 Silent Mid Tower 2 x USB 3.0 / 2 x USB 2.0 Sound-Dampened Black Case
1 Processor Intel Core i9 9900K Coffee Lake Refresh 3.6GHz Eight Core 1151 Socket Overclockable Processor
1 CPU Cooler Cooler Master Hyper TX3 EVO Universal Socket 92mm PWM 2800RPM Black Fan CPU Cooler
1 Graphics Card ASRock AMD Radeon RX580 8GB OC Phantom Gaming D Dual Fan Graphics Card
1 2nd Hard Drive Team GX2 1TB SATA III SSD
1 3rd Hard Drive Team GX2 1TB SATA III SSD
1 Primary Hard Drive WD Black WDS250G3X0C SN750 - 250GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD
1 Motherboard Gigabyte Z390 GAMING X Intel Socket 1151 ATX HDMI DDR4 USB C 3.1 M.2 Motherboard
1 Memory Kingston HyperX Predator 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4 3200MHz DIMM System Memory
1 Primary Optical Hitachi-LG BH16NS40.ARAA10B Internal BD-Writer Optical Drive (Without Software)
1 Power Supply Antec EarthWatts Gold Pro 750W 120mm Silent 80 PLUS Gold Semi Modular PSU
1 Software Microsoft Windows 10 Professional 64bit English OEI DVD Operating Software

and boy is it fast!!!
https://soundcloud.com/knmac ... Cubase 10.5..Windows 10..Intel Core i9 9900K Coffee Lake Refresh 3.6GHz Eight Core 1151 Socket Overclockable Processor, WD Black WDS250G3X0C SN750 - 250GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD, ASRock AMD Radeon RX580 8GB OC Phantom Gaming D Dual Fan Graphics Card,
Gigabyte Z390 GAMING X Intel Socket 1151 ATX HDMI DDR4 USB C 3.1 M.2 Motherboard, 32GB ram, 2x Team GX2 1TB SATA III SSD. Yamaha N8.

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:59 pm

thx
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Radeon VII / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX 7/ Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by mozart » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:54 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:28 pm
mozart wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:09 am
At the risk of de-railing this thread

Do you guys dual boot with win 10 - one partition for Internet and admin and one streamlined for DAW?

I do that with win 7 currently, Updating to 10 soon and wondered whether it was still advised.....
I doubt you're really protecting your device from that much though when you do that. I would imagine that if your computer gets infected with something nasty when using the internet partition it'd spread whatever problems you get onto the machine as a whole.

I think the more practical solution is to stay with one partition and do regular "real" backups you can fall back on should trouble arise.
Thanks I wasn't thinking about protection / viruses, just about having loads of admin software with it's various background processes running on a partition that also has DAW software on it. At the moment, my DAW partition has nothing but essential music related stuff on it and runs really well. My internet / admin partition has all the other gubbins :-)
Music for Film and TV

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:46 pm

I understand. I don't quite know why one would be faster than the other though. I mean, it's still the same drive and I'm not 100% certain you're losing all that much performance by having "gubbins" on the OS partition.

I could be wrong about that of course.
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Radeon VII / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX 7/ Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: The Windows 10 jitters.

Post by skijumptoes » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:59 pm

One thing to be a little cautious with is that many software drivers come complete with firmware updates, so it's presumed (by manufacturers) that if you're running the latest firmware you're also running the latest drivers as it comes as a set.
If you therefore receive an update which changes your hardware bios/fw but continue to run out of date drivers/control/management software on the offline partition then glitches or malfunction can occur.

I've had this happen with a focusrite saffire firewire audio interface before - which was an easy fix as i just had to get beta version of mixcontrol on the offline partition. But the biggest issue i had was updating motherboard bios to support new GPU as i used the main partition for video editing. The offline partition wouldn't boot, and it was a few weeks later that i tried it. I was so focused on the primary that it didn't occur to me what may happen.

For me, it's not worth the hassle. I'd rather run a single boot system and with the hours i save in my own time just get a CPU that's going to gain the small percentage you may lose in background tasks (Which are very efficient nowadays anyway). I'd hate to think of the hours lost booting between partitions/copying data across to clients. But most of my work involves fire fighting where i'm rapidly going back to the software for small changes as we make our minds up. lol

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